Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Victarion]

For the most part, I'd like to see where Marvel's villains are more of the mindset "I'm doing the right thing," rather than villain of the week, or villain weighed down by melodrama.

 

[Mjölnir]

Groots feat was more to do with his range of powers though, Drax couldn't do that if he tried because he can't grow his arms. Drax also took out Korath who was Ronans main comrade and powerful himself. That's like saying Hulk would lose Iron Man because he can't fly.

Gamora could have killed Drax, but not through brute force, in that moment she simply got the drop on him. Drax clearly showed throughout he was much stronger. Tearing robots apart and hitting people a fair distance, at last until they hit the pillar in the prison. Also, the same people who were going to kill Gamora were terrified of Drax.

I'm more referring to the power it takes to smack a dozen or more guys around like that. I don't see Drax just tackling a group like that. In any case I don't think it comes across that Drax is supposed to be the most powerful. Not necessarily that he seems less powerful than Groot, but still.

I'm not saying that Gamora is more powerful than Drax. I was responding to that you mentioned Gamora cutting up Groot's arms, as it doesn't seem like she would be unable to cut up Drax (especially in a "she has a sword and Drax nothing" situation), so I didn't see that as something that separated Groot and Drax. The movie will of course prefer to get the regenerating guy hurt more than the rest.

This is kind of moot though since it's about the villains and none of them could take Ronan on their own through a close combat battle. You'd need some of the Avengers for that.

 

[marvellover]

Personally I thought there was no tension throughout, but I agree the final battle was the biggest offender. People say he beat the crap out of Thor, yet Thor was able to get straight back up after this so called beating and was even fit enough to make a joke, hardly a beating in my eyes. It should shown him taking the whole team on, or at least a couple of the more powerful ones at a time. For me Marvel does have a problem with their villains if they can't get iconic ones like Ultron and Red Skull right. I never felt a threat from either.

I honestly hope for the future movies they talk to the Netflix guys, honestly Kilgrave could come across as more threatening in a 10 min scene than most of the movie villains come across with much more screen time.

Look at Kurse for what beating the crap out of Thor actually looks like

Ultron never showed the raw strength that he should have had in the movie
People also said he "survived" Vision,Thor,Iron Man's combined firepower when he could be destroyed completely in that scene if they didn't stop shooting at him for some reasons
You know Joss Whedon just wanted a reason to kill off Quicksilver and had Ultron delivered his last speech to Vision

 

[Godzillasaurus]

Personally I thought there was no tension throughout, but I agree the final battle was the biggest offender. People say he beat the crap out of Thor, yet Thor was able to get straight back up after this so called beating and was even fit enough to make a joke, hardly a beating in my eyes. It should shown him taking the whole team on, or at least a couple of the more powerful ones at a time. For me Marvel does have a problem with their villains if they can't get iconic ones like Ultron and Red Skull right. I never felt a threat from either.

I honestly hope for the future movies they talk to the Netflix guys, honestly Kilgrave could come across as more threatening in a 10 min scene than most of the movie villains come across with much more screen time.

He still beat the **** out of Thor...

Blame the fact that Thor stood seemingly unharmed on Whedon and the writers- they have some weird fetish for dumbing villains down.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm more referring to the power it takes to smack a dozen or more guys around like that. I don't see Drax just tackling a group like that. In any case I don't think it comes across that Drax is supposed to be the most powerful. Not necessarily that he seems less powerful than Groot, but still.

I'm not saying that Gamora is more powerful than Drax. I was responding to that you mentioned Gamora cutting up Groot's arms, as it doesn't seem like she would be unable to cut up Drax (especially in a "she has a sword and Drax nothing" situation), so I didn't see that as something that separated Groot and Drax. The movie will of course prefer to get the regenerating guy hurt more than the rest.

This is kind of moot though since it's about the villains and none of them could take Ronan on their own through a close combat battle. You'd need some of the Avengers for that.

Well, the director himself said Drax is the most powerful and he put certain scenes in to show it. You believe everything Joss said about AOU, yet you don't believe Gunn?

Plus Drax did take on a group of guys just before, he was throwing them around for fun and then took out Korath who was Ronan's first commander. Drax even states at one point he calls the Sakaarians paper people because he goes through them so easily.

 

[Mjölnir]

Well, the director himself said Drax is the most powerful and he put certain scenes in to show it. You believe everything Joss said about AOU, yet you don't believe Gunn?

Plus Drax did take on a group of guys just before, he was throwing them around for fun and then took out Korath who was Ronan's first commander. Drax even states at one point he calls the Sakaarians paper people because he goes through them so easily.

I clearly said that I didn't think the movie makes it come across that Drax is supposed to be the most powerful. That's a statement that accepts that Gunn has that opinion and merely says that the execution didn't show it well.

Drax certainly kicks ass, but he takes out one or two at a time. Groot took out sixteen guys simultaneously.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I clearly said that I didn't think the movie makes it come across that Drax is supposed to be the most powerful. That's a statement that accepts that Gunn has that opinion and merely says that the execution didn't show it well.

Drax certainly kicks ass, but he takes out one or two at a time. Groot took out sixteen guys simultaneously.

But again Groot could do that because of the nature of his powers, not because he was the most powerful.

 

[OcStat]

For the most part, I'd like to see where Marvel's villains are more of the mindset "I'm doing the right thing," rather than villain of the week, or villain weighed down by melodrama.

Ultron is probably closest to that.

Red Skull and Cross maybe? Schmidt obivously had his own vision of right and wrong and wasn't going to let anyone in the way of his objective.

Alexander Pierce.

Loki has his desire of conquest but I think he knows he's doing wrong, but envy and his feelings of betrayal get the better of him.

Some of the films don't dig as much as they potentially could've, but I think the pieces are there in all the scenes to paint yourself a pretty good picture of these characters.

 

[Mjölnir]

But again Groot could do that because of the nature of his powers, not because he was the most powerful.

Parts of it is that he can apparently extend his reach, which is unique, but the other part is that he's just clearly strong enough to lift 8 guys and smack them around so hard that he smashes 8 other guys in the process. Clearly a big feat of strength. The biggest from the heroes in the movie imo.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Parts of it is that he can apparently extend his reach, which is unique, but the other part is that he's just clearly strong enough to lift 8 guys and smack them around so hard that he smashes 8 other guys in the process. Clearly a big feat of strength. The biggest from the heroes in the movie imo.

It's a big feat, but just before Drax was throwing some of them around with ease also. And for me Drax tearing apart an armoured Droid with his bare hands was just as if not more impressive.

 

[BoredGuy]

the CGI kinda ruined that for me though
Cap splittin the log with his hands looked more impressive than Drax's move
I'd definitely like to see Drax show some more power and fighting skills in the next one (Gamora too, for that matter)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

the CGI kinda ruined that for me though
Cap splittin the log with his hands looked more impressive than Drax's move
I'd definitely like to see Drax show some more power and fighting skills in the next one (Gamora too, for that matter)

I didn't have an issue with the CGI in that moment, didn't see anything particularly bad and honestly never heard it mentioned before. I would like to add the Droid was shooting at him front point blank range while he was tearing it apart also.

But I agree we need to see more from Drax. He was not quite the bad ass he is in the comics and he needs a good bad ass scene or two in the sequel.

 

[BoredGuy]

yeah and I'm not saying the CG was bad, it wasnt, but a CG robot is still a CG robot, seeing someone rip apart a real world item that we have reference for has more impact than a cartoon, imo

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

yeah and I'm not saying the CG was bad, it wasnt, but a CG robot is still a CG robot, seeing someone rip apart a real world item that we have reference for has more impact than a cartoon, imo

Ah right, fair enough it's your opinion my friend. Personally I thought it was fine though.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I'd definitely like to see Drax show some more power and fighting skills in the next one (Gamora too, for that matter)

Is Drax coming back for sequel?

 

[TeeKay]

Obviously.

 

[Flint Marko]

Figured this would be worth bumping now that we have a few more films to talk about.

Ajax was nothing of note in Deadpool, although I did enjoy that actors performance and felt he was fun to watch when pitted against Reynold's wit. Lex Luthor was pretty much horrendous, so the less said about that the better. And from what I've gathered, Apocalypse is fairly underwhelming. I haven't seen the film yet and will go into it with an open mind, but I have yet to hear anything good about the character. At the moment it seems that the best villain in any 2016 CBM is Zemo.

So no, I don't think that Marvel has a problem with their villains in any way that severely holds them back. Could they do more with their villains overall? Absolutely, but their competitors aren't doing a better job, at least not on a consistent basis, so here's to hoping this tired criticism can be reassessed.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Figured this would be worth bumping now that we have a few more films to talk about.

Ajax was nothing of note in Deadpool, although I did enjoy that actors performance and felt he was fun to watch when pitted against Reynold's wit. Lex Luthor was pretty much horrendous, so the less said about that the better. And from what I've gathered, Apocalypse is fairly underwhelming. I haven't seen the film yet and will go into it with an open mind, but I have yet to hear anything good about the character. At the moment it seems that the best villain in any 2016 CBM is Zemo.

So no, I don't think that Marvel has a problem with their villains in any way that severely holds them back. Could they do more with their villains overall? Absolutely, but their competitors aren't doing a better job, at least not on a consistent basis, so here's to hoping this tired criticism can be reassessed.

Not seen Apoc yet myself, but just because other movies have poor villains this year, doesn't mean Marvel still doesn't have a problem. Zemo was certainly nothing to write home about, though he was decent, not bad by any means.

I actually feel Ajax was a bit under rated, but hey ho that's just me. But for me it's not a tired criticism at all. As I think it would improve the movies, some of them vastly so.

 

[Mjölnir]

There aren't that many really special villains in CBM's in general. Getting a great one is of course something that will enhance a movie. Anything great will make a movie better. It's not necessary to make a really good movie though and I'd say a bigger thing is to get the heroes right. Deadpool managed the same as I think the MCU has been best at this far, to get the heroes to feel right (which often seems to coincide with movies with a clear hero focus). I also think Zemo was really good for what he was, since there was no room to make his role larger as the focus was on the schism between the Avengers.

Another example of that the villain doesn't have to be what makes the movie is Mad Max: Fury Road. A highly acclaimed movie but I don't think I remember any CBM villain being as irrelevant as the main villain in that movie. Some are worse in terms of concept/acting, but none as irrelevant. Or well, I guess cloud Galactus showing up at the end and promptly being imploded is less relevant.

So there's room to have better villains, but I'm not sure it's actually a problem.

 

[Flint Marko]

Agreed, Mjolnir.

Not seen Apoc yet myself, but just because other movies have poor villains this year, doesn't mean Marvel still doesn't have a problem. Zemo was certainly nothing to write home about, though he was decent, not bad by any means.

I actually feel Ajax was a bit under rated, but hey ho that's just me. But for me it's not a tired criticism at all. As I think it would improve the movies, some of them vastly so.

You've missed my point. The "villain problem" isn't unique to them and that plain, undeniable fact is worth mentioning whenever this discussion arises.
Again, I completely agree that they could do better with their villains overall but so could pretty much every other studio working on superhero adaptions. This complaint has been around for years and it's always directed at Marvel simply because they're the ones dominating the current CBM landscape, but that accusation isn't entirely fair when you look at the big picture.

 

[MadVillainy]

There aren't that many really special villains in CBM's in general. Getting a great one is of course something that will enhance a movie. Anything great will make a movie better. It's not necessary to make a really good movie though and I'd say a bigger thing is to get the heroes right. Deadpool managed the same as I think the MCU has been best at this far, to get the heroes to feel right (which often seems to coincide with movies with a clear hero focus). I also think Zemo was really good for what he was, since there was no room to make his role larger as the focus was on the schism between the Avengers.

Another example of that the villain doesn't have to be what makes the movie is Mad Max: Fury Road. A highly acclaimed movie but I don't think I remember any CBM villain being as irrelevant as the main villain in that movie. Some are worse in terms of concept/acting, but none as irrelevant. Or well, I guess cloud Galactus showing up at the end and promptly being imploded is less relevant.

So there's room to have better villains, but I'm not sure it's actually a problem.

yeah I would say it's more of a Hollywood problem then a Marvel problem when you think about it. I can't remember the last time I really liked a villain in a major blockbuster. Zemo wasn't bad though.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

There aren't that many really special villains in CBM's in general. Getting a great one is of course something that will enhance a movie. Anything great will make a movie better. It's not necessary to make a really good movie though and I'd say a bigger thing is to get the heroes right. Deadpool managed the same as I think the MCU has been best at this far, to get the heroes to feel right (which often seems to coincide with movies with a clear hero focus). I also think Zemo was really good for what he was, since there was no room to make his role larger as the focus was on the schism between the Avengers.

Another example of that the villain doesn't have to be what makes the movie is Mad Max: Fury Road. A highly acclaimed movie but I don't think I remember any CBM villain being as irrelevant as the main villain in that movie. Some are worse in terms of concept/acting, but none as irrelevant. Or well, I guess cloud Galactus showing up at the end and promptly being imploded is less relevant.

So there's room to have better villains, but I'm not sure it's actually a problem.

Have to disagree on Immortan Joe, I liked him a lot as a villain. When you think about what he did to the wives and the people who worshipped him, he was cruel as hell.

Kylo Ren is another good recent one IMO.

Agreed, Mjolnir.



You've missed my point. The "villain problem" isn't unique to them and that plain, undeniable fact is worth mentioning whenever this discussion arises.
Again, I completely agree that they could do better with their villains overall but so could pretty much every other studio working on superhero adaptions. This complaint has been around for years and it's always directed at Marvel simply because they're the ones dominating the current CBM landscape, but that accusation isn't entirely fair when you look at the big picture.

But at the same time, the MCU haven't been able to produce a villain as good as the likes of Magneto or The Joker. So for me it still is a pretty big issue, and also for me it's something stopping their movies from being truly great. Just because others do poor villains, doesn't mean Marvel don't need to improve theirs.

 

[Kyle]

Yes. The only good Marvel Studio villains have been Loki, Winter Soldier, and Zemo. They need to go more in depth with a lot more complexity for all of them, they're just there to service the plot more than anything else it seems. Happy the Russo brothers are handling Thanos because they've gone 2 for 2 so far.

 

[Flint Marko]

But at the same time, the MCU haven't been able to produce a villain as good as the likes of Magneto or The Joker. So for me it still is a pretty big issue, and also for me it's something stopping their movies from being truly great.

The MCU has Kilgrave, Wilson Fisk, and Loki, all three of which are widely regarded as great. If you don't agree then that's fine, but they're not all Malekith's.

Just because others do poor villains, doesn't mean Marvel don't need to improve theirs.

Have you not been paying attention? I've said exactly this on two separate occasions in this very thread. That isn't my point, and you're just starting to repeat yourself.

 

[Neno_Kos]

Well finally they got Spidey's rogue gallery. Probably 2nd to Batman rogue gallery in comic verse. Villains in MCU arent the big problem (they serve for heroes plot more than anything else), but there are no excuses now.

Lately, Marvel is doing fine with villains and this should only help elevate quality of them even more.