Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Ragnaroknroll]

That's debatable, depending on your definition of "main" villain. I mean, it's true for the first movie, but for the others you could say it goes to Stryker, Phoenix, Shaw, Trask and Apocalypse.

Almost every one of those films has the "Magneto twist" where he ends up being the real villain. Phoenix was just a pawn really although he unleashed more than he bargained for. Those others villains with the exception of the first Stryker are all forgettable IMO.

For the record, I don't hate the X-Men films. X2 and First Class are personal favorites. Fox is pretty hit or miss with the series though and I think Magneto is the only great comic villain they have ever given us.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Well, this is just a difference of opinion. I think there is need of it, maybe not completely with the Netflix shows, though I think Kilgrave wouldn't go unnoticed for so long, but definitely with AOS. Why would Coulson keep his resurrection hidden for so long? And Quake and Deathlok were more battle ready than Spiderman was in CW, why not at least mention recruiting them?

Regarding Cap talking about powered people in AOU. Unknowing inhuman people didn't start showing up in AOS until season 3, which began months after AOU came out, so that point doesn't sync I am afraid.

Also an inhuman outbreak in AOS is a big enough deal for the President to be involved, but not the Avengers. Yeah, not having it.

Well isn't SHIELD technically defunct? They are supposed to be "Secret Warriors" so no one really knows about their operations. And the Inhuman outbreak certainly classifies as enhanced individuals according to the Sokovia Accords. (For further details reference Subsection G, line 47 )

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I thought Pheonix ended up being the real villain in X3, but she was done awful IMO. Personality though, I would put Sebastien Shaw and Stryker above a number of MCU villains.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well isn't SHIELD technically defunct? They are supposed to be "Secret Warriors" so no one really knows about their operations. And the Inhuman outbreak certainly classifies as enhanced individuals according to the Sokovia Accords. (For further details reference Subsection G, line 47 )

They can't be that defunct if the President visits them. Funny how the inhuman outbreak wasn't mentioned by name though. Especially considering what some of them have done.

But this isn't the thread topic, let's move on.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I thought Pheonix ended up being the real villain in X3, but she was done awful IMO. Personality though, I would put Sebastien Shaw and Stryker above a number of MCU villains.

Yeah I really like the first Stryker - the one played by Brian Cox. But that whole movie to me is awesome. Shaw was just OK. He wasn't a bad villain per se. He just seemed like he was playing Kevin Bacon to me.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

They can't be that defunct if the President visits them. Funny how the inhuman outbreak wasn't mentioned by name though. Especially considering what some of them have done.

But this isn't the thread topic, let's move on.

Yeah but the President was in on the cover up. The ATCU was basically set up as a front to keep SHIELD hidden if I remember correctly.

All right moving on....

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Regarding Zemo, people keep saying that the reason MS [BLACKOUT]hasn't killed him is because they plan to bring him back later and flesh him out some more[/BLACKOUT], but I'm not sure about that.

The only reason [BLACKOUT]he survived is because it was needed to complete Black Panther's character arc[/BLACKOUT]. And probably because they wanted to give to [BLACKOUT]"the man who broke the Avengers" the proverbial fate worse than death.[/BLACKOUT]

I really don't think there's [BLACKOUT]anything left to do for him in the MCU. He's served his purpose.[/BLACKOUT]

I think the reason people say that is because

Spoiler

1. He survived
2. He didn't wear the mask yet.
3. Brühl responded with "There's a possibility. That's the way it's written." when asked whether he would wear it in a future movie.
4. Thunderbolts seems like an obvious choice for a movie
5. Whenever the Avengers are friends again post infinity war, he won't be happy
6. There were hints there is more to him than what was shown on the surface, including him being in the paramilitary EKO Skorpion.

 

[Mjölnir]

Well, this is just a difference of opinion. I think there is need of it, maybe not completely with the Netflix shows, though I think Kilgrave wouldn't go unnoticed for so long, but definitely with AOS. Why would Coulson keep his resurrection hidden for so long? And Quake and Deathlok were more battle ready than Spiderman was in CW, why not at least mention recruiting them?

Regarding Cap talking about powered people in AOU. Unknowing inhuman people didn't start showing up in AOS until season 3, which began months after AOU came out, so that point doesn't sync I am afraid.

Also an inhuman outbreak in AOS is a big enough deal for the President to be involved, but not the Avengers. Yeah, not having it.

They didn't even talk about the people they actually did recruit, they just showed it, so why would they talk about others? Makes no sense to me. They should explain how Iron Man found Peter, but it's quite clear that they could have more trouble finding people that are hidden by a secret organization they don't even think exist anymore.

The Inhumans aren't the first enhanced people in AoS, so yes, it syncs.

I guess it's not a smart move for me to keep arguing the Inhumans though since I'm bound to get spoiled on something that happens after the point where I stopped.

But the bottom line is that they all are in the same universe. I'm right there and that's a fact. Anything else is opinion on how well they are using it but that's a different matter and something one should acknowledge before switching subject to keep an honest attitude to the discussion.

 

[Zarex]

I think the reason people say that is because

Spoiler

1. He survived
2. He didn't wear the mask yet.
3. Brühl responded with "There's a possibility. That's the way it's written." when asked whether he would wear it in a future movie.
4. Thunderbolts seems like an obvious choice for a movie
5. Whenever the Avengers are friends again post infinity war, he won't be happy
6. There were hints there is more to him than what was shown on the surface, including him being in the paramilitary EKO Skorpion.

Agree with all this.

Spoiler

If Zemo ended up on The Raft, Secretary Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross has an accomplished military strategist, his pick of imprisoned enhanced humans, an intense dislike of the Avengers, a likely superhero team void post Infinity War and a cool nickname.

 

[metaphysician]

Jessica Jones mostly just takes pictures of cheating wives/husbands. Occasionally she supplements this with a bit of super-strength, but we're still talking about someone who can go a year at a time without doing anything overtly metahuman. Cage is a bar-owner. He might occasionally use a bit of super-strength to stop a rowdy drunk, but again we're talking about someone who can easily go a year at a stretch with doing anything overtly super. Meanwhile Spider-Man is Tarzaning around and openly stopping crime in a colorful costume.

Also, none of the Netflix superhumans would be remotely relevant to Avengers business. Tony entirely could know about Daredevil and Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. . . and ignore them as being unimportant for his objective of "bring in Cap and friends". Because they are exactly that: unimportant. One Spider-man would contribute more to capturing Cap than all three of them combined.

The Netflix heroes aren't Avengers. They don't operate at that scale, and they don't have the skills or abilities to try. They are street level heroes with street level scope. The Avengers are not ( even the non-powered ones ).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well, I personally liked Apocalypse a lot, he was much like his CB counterpart in personality, and he had some good power displays and was a challenge for not just the X-Men but some others as well. I would put him above several MCU villains and he may be my favourite CBM villain so far this year.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

They didn't even talk about the people they actually did recruit, they just showed it, so why would they talk about others? Makes no sense to me. They should explain how Iron Man found Peter, but it's quite clear that they could have more trouble finding people that are hidden by a secret organization they don't even think exist anymore.

The Inhumans aren't the first enhanced people in AoS, so yes, it syncs.

I guess it's not a smart move for me to keep arguing the Inhumans though since I'm bound to get spoiled on something that happens after the point where I stopped.

But the bottom line is that they all are in the same universe. I'm right there and that's a fact. Anything else is opinion on how well they are using it but that's a different matter and something one should acknowledge before switching subject to keep an honest attitude to the discussion.

Well, I disagree with a lot of this, but as I said earlier, this isn't the thread topic, let's move on.

 

[TeeKay]

Well, I personally liked Apocalypse a lot, he was much like his CB counterpart in personality, and he had some good power displays and was a challenge for not just the X-Men but some others as well. I would put him above several MCU villains and he may be my favourite CBM villain so far this year.

Disagreed. His powers were so vague. He became a laughing stock when QS was using as a punching bag. Killing the tension in the finale.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Also, none of the Netflix superhumans would be remotely relevant to Avengers business. Tony entirely could know about Daredevil and Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. . . and ignore them as being unimportant for his objective of "bring in Cap and friends". Because they are exactly that: unimportant. One Spider-man would contribute more to capturing Cap than all three of them combined.

The Netflix heroes aren't Avengers. They don't operate at that scale, and they don't have the skills or abilities to try. They are street level heroes with street level scope. The Avengers are not ( even the non-powered ones ).

Also Jessica and Luke at the very least would almost certainly side with Cap, not Tony.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Disagreed. His powe[ were so vague. He became a laughing stock when QS was using as a punching bag. Killing the tension in the finale.

Well, I have to disagree back. I thought that moment with QS was great, but he was quickly put down and shown who the boss was, brutally so in fact. It was shown in and spoken in the movie as well that without [BLACKOUT]Pheonix [/BLACKOUT] they would have lost against Apoc.

 

[Silvermoth]

What about the sentinels? Or Ajax from Deadpool? Or Sebastian shaw? Way cooler than the versions of malekith or ronan the accuser we saw. Or that guy from antman

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What about the sentinels? Or Ajax from Deadpool? Or Sebastian shaw? Way cooler than the versions of malekith or ronan the accuser we saw. Or that guy from antman

Yep I mentioned them earlier, the sentinals obviously didn't have a personality but they were creepy and dangerous. I think Shaw and Ajax were underrated personally as well, more so Shaw.

 

[First Avenger]

Honestly if Ajax is a good villain then 95% of Marvel's are good too.

 

[StormC]

so how would y'all rate them, film by film:

Stane- 8 out of 10
Abomination- 6/10
Whiplash- 5/10
Hammer- 6/10
Loki- 10/10
Red Skull- 7/10
Killian- 7/10
Malekith- 3/10
Alexander Pierce- 9/10
Ronan- 6/10
Ultron- 7/10
Darren Cross- 6/10
Zemo- 9/10

Avg- 6.84

And for good measure-
Kingpin- 10/10
Purple Man- 9/10

Only counting the central villain of each movie/series (so no Hammer, Thanos, etc.):

1. Wilson Fisk/Kingpin (Fantastic)
2. Loki (Great)
3. Helmut Zemo (Great)
4. Johan Schmidt/Red Skull (Great)
5. Ultron (Good)
6. Alexander Pierce (Good)
7. Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger (Good)
8. Darren Cross/Yellow Jacket (Decent)
9. Aldrich Killian (Decent)
10. Emil Blonksy/Abomination (Average)
11. Ivan Vanko/Whiplash (Poor)
12. Ronan (Poor)
13. Malekith (Bad)

Haven't watched any MCU TV series besides Daredevil, so I can't comment on those villains.

 

[TeeKay]

Honestly if Ajax is a good villain then 95% of Marvel's are good too.

Yeah I'm wondering what makes Ajax a good villain.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Yeah I'm wondering what makes Ajax a good villain.

He's not in the MCU.

 

[The_Manhunter]

OK my rankings are gonna be controversial but I'm posting them anyway lol

1) Ultron
2) Loki
3) Malekith
4) Ronan
5) Purple Man
6) Red Skull
7) Kingpin
8) Iron Monger
9) Hive
10) Alexander Pierce
11) Yellowjacket
12) Abomination
13) Whiplash
14) Nobu
15) Jiaying
16) The Clairvoyant
17) Zemo
18) The Mandarin

 

[Marvel Knight]

1) Fisk

2) Loki

3) Punisher

4) Purple Man

5) Hive

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Honestly if Ajax is a good villain then 95% of Marvel's are good too.

Yeah I'm wondering what makes Ajax a good villain.

I wouldn't say he was good, but not bad either, somewhere in the middle. You dislike him and want to see the hero beat him, plus he had a bit of personality rather than just being there like some ther villains.

 

[RoryTate]

The Sentinels were such a wasted opportunity in DOFP. Claiming that faceless, CGI rejects from I, Robot are strong villains is only possible if you don't know anything about the comics, where their sentience, drive for self-preservation alongside preservation of humanity, are all explored wonderfully. I would have taken a few scenes with those Sentinels over the repeating and forgettable X-Men deaths any day.

One of the things that needs to be realized in this thread is that the Joker from TDK may indeed be a great villain, but having that as your base comparison requires that the villain of the movie completely outshine the hero. And I know a lot of comic Batman fans will immediately try and argue this statement, but take it from someone who knows very little about Batman, I watched TDK once, and while I can remember several good Joker scenes, not a single Batman line or image from the movie was at all memorable to me.

To be frank, another way to state this question is: Do all of the studios other than Marvel have a problem with their heroes? Because Marvel consistently portrays recognizable, identifiable, and enjoyable protagonists, so why should anyone want the antagonist to be suddenly more interesting than the hero(es)? IMO Marvel are right to focus on the protagonist's story/motivation/arc/etc, as evidenced by the critical and financial success all of their movies have enjoyed.