Horror Dr. Lecter Invites you to Dinner. The ''Hannibal'' Thread - Part 5

[Doctor Jones]

I'm wondering if Will would have even been in the Silence of the Lambs story. Because the difficulty of that is that it is Clarice's story yet since the show is about Will and Hannibal it makes the notion more difficult to handle. Could have made a cool love triangle so to speak. Plus the idea of making Clarice black is a very interesting idea and automatically helps offset the expectation of being compared up to Jodi Foster. Lee Pace as Buffalo Bill would have been great though.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The idea that he would basically have Hannibal in the dungeon under Chilton's care, and then have contemplative flashbacks to his therapy sessions with Benjamin Raspail is very intriguing to me. It makes sense, and if they kind of go the route where Hannibal is locked away in a horrible place by a vengeful Chilton....maybe for a few years, then him meeting Clarice and becoming fascinated by her and her story. I can see that and buy that Hannibal would become attached to her in a significant way.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I think the easiest way to write Will into Silence would have been for him to be a de facto caregiver to Hannibal in the sense that anyone who interacted with him in any way would have to advised or overseen by Will. The thought in my head was that Will would have been one of the only to overcome Hannibal, so while Hannibal would have been Lucifier, Will would be more akin to Micheal, and Clarice would have been caught in the middle, being pulled between becoming The ****e of Babylon or The Woman Clothed in the Sun. It would have still had that strange element of fascination and romance that Hannibal and Clarice had while still maintaining the tug of war between Will and Hannibal.

I think it could have been done really well.

 

[Smilodon]

That's a brilliant idea, Tron. My idea for Will was literally turning Hannibal into a buddy-cop show, but that's much better than mine. It also fits really well into the existing relationship of Will/Hannibal.

In a hypothetical Clarice situation, my personal wish would be to make her (at least initially) episodes more episodic and bring back the procedural element that we had initially with Will. I guess we can't make her Will 2.0 with the pendulums, but having her kinda learn from Will might be interesting? I feel like throwing in Clarice and then going straight up dream sequence would be too much. Perhaps make her a bit more normal to balance how slow speaking certain character can be. We can get the freaky dream stuff with her lambs but yeah. I think Fuller's comments of her being a poor white or a poor minority might also bring up some interesting things to flesh out vs Will's troubled mental state.

 

[flickchick85]

Well I was unable to watch the finale on Saturday night so I just finished it a few minutes ago. That was...something. It was both a little campy/OTT, but also weirdly satisfying for a series finale if that should be it. This season was all over the place but overall I really liked it and there's a part of me that feels this is where it truly SHOULD end, so I won't be angry if it doesn't find new life elsewhere. It feels like a complete work - a brilliant, beautifully grotesque complete work - as it is, and I'm grateful for what we got.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think it's interesting that with Will Hannibal was very much "You're more like me than you admit, I can get you to murder someone, and be my companion." Whereas, in Silence he didn't really try that with Clarice. That didn't really factor into their relationship. When you think about it, the majority of Hannibal's actions in Silence (save for his escape) were mostly done out of boredom and amusement, but through his interactions with this young woman he grew fascinated by her drive to save people.

It's almost the opposite of Will. She was so startling different from the slew of immoral people around him that he was enraptured by her. I'd love to see that with this version of Hannibal, because I think Mads could get to that place.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Mads was just all-out incredible in this show. Everyone one was, for the most part, but he really gave the show such life.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

IMO he is the best Hannibal out there.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I agree, honestly. I recently re-watched Silence of the Lambs with a friend, and Hopkins is good, but there's something so...cartoonish about his performance. I'm kind of surprised he won an Oscar for it to be honest. Not trying to say it was bad, just...I don't know, kind of one note overall. The subtly and grace that Mads brought to the role really was something special. Even when he was being more outright villainous as season 3 closed, there was a reservation and calmness to his performance, so well done.

 

[slimshady247]

 

[Smilodon]

I absolutely loved his threat to Alana at the very end. That was the most direct Mads' Hannibal had been all series with regards to threats. There was no mincing of words or philosophical musings of teacups shattering and coming back together, there was only "You, your wife and child - they all belong to me". Fitting that in the series finale, the person suit comes completely undone.

I think Hopkins' Hannibal is good in the context of the time period. I feel like the latter films almost tarnish his reputation because he has to become so stretched out as the protagonist and therefore becomes a bit over the top, as others have mentioned I think elsewhere on these boards. Silence of the Lambs (and also Red Dragon) have just the right amounts of Lecter where his mannerisms don't become one note. Hopkin's Hannibal would be the middle of the road between the more realistic Cox and the nearly supernatural Mads.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think Hopkins was really over the top in Red Dragon, he overplayed the role in a way almost to compensate for Ed Norton's boredom

 

[Pink Ranger]

Very cool, I had a special appointment with the doctor today at fanexpo Toronto:

Spoiler

The turnout was huge, I waited in line for a solid two hours. I heard him comment to some fans that he and others were still waiting for any news on the show being picked up, but maybe he was just trying to be nice.

BTW, in real life, he is REALLY good looking. It does not come across really on TV or in movies.

 

[Golgo-13]

Love the finale. The shot of Anderson in that blue dress at the end..…one leg and all!

 

[CrypticOne]

Hopefully the Blu-ray is released by Christmas. Need to watch this, ASAP.

 

[Maximus One]

I know one thing, I am eternally grateful this show ended when it did now that I've slept on it for a while. This show was always the Will and Hannibal show like the books should have been instead of shoehorning in that asinine romance with Little Miss Useless and completely getting rid of the second most interesting character in the series. I'm sad to see this show go and I love some of Fuller's ideas for season 4 but none of those ideas mean anything to me as long as she comes into play.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I'm never understand how some people are unable to imagine a story in which Will and Clarice co-existed.

 

[slimshady247]

Well, they're not writing it, so that's alright.

 

[Maximus One]

Oh, I think they could co-exist fine. I just find her inclusion in the series, this series especially, completely unneeded.

 

[Matt]

I absolutely loved his threat to Alana at the very end. That was the most direct Mads' Hannibal had been all series with regards to threats. There was no mincing of words or philosophical musings of teacups shattering and coming back together, there was only "You, your wife and child - they all belong to me". Fitting that in the series finale, the person suit comes completely undone.

It would've been a great scene if the writers actually gave the audience the payoff that that scene (and every scene between the two in the 6 episode Red Dragon arc) built up to. Instead it felt like a waste of time (like every Lecter and Alana scene) because it ultimately went no where.

I think Hopkins' Hannibal is good in the context of the time period. I feel like the latter films almost tarnish his reputation because he has to become so stretched out as the protagonist and therefore becomes a bit over the top, as others have mentioned I think elsewhere on these boards. Silence of the Lambs (and also Red Dragon) have just the right amounts of Lecter where his mannerisms don't become one note. Hopkin's Hannibal would be the middle of the road between the more realistic Cox and the nearly supernatural Mads.

IMO, this remains, the definitive Hannibal Lecter scene:



It is better than anything else Hopkins did, better than anything that Cox did and better than anything Mikkelsen did.

Mikkelsen was always a bit too...overt...for my liking. In the seasons before Hannibal was exposed, everything he said was with a wink to the audience. "Hello Will, I am just having a friend for dinner." *WINK* "GET IT!?!? GET IT!?!?! I'M EATING SOMEONE!!!" It was as bad as Red Dragon Hopkins. Then in the back end of season 2 and season 3, he was just pure psycho on display but to an omnipotent degree. The character was just too unstoppable. They went too far with the Hannibal is the Devil motif.

Meanwhile, that scene from SOTL sums up everything Lecter should be. One moment he is normal and even polite...and that's the point, he is human one moment and the next he is not. The next moment he is biting someone's face off with absolutely no emotion. Something just snaps and he goes to work. Then the subtle pleasure he takes as he beats Sgt. Pembry to death....it is chilling. The way he is simultaneously taking pleasure and also showing no emotion at all. And then he just turns it back off and carries on with his plan as if nothing happened. There is nothing omnipotent. There is nothing otherworldly. It is just a psychopath killing. That scene still gives me chills. It is the most terrifying fictional display of psychopathy ever filmed, IMO.

I'm never understand how some people are unable to imagine a story in which Will and Clarice co-existed.

I could see them co-existing before season 3. I'm not really sure what Clarice would do in a post-season 3 world. Fueller basically co-opted her role in the story with Will.

I know one thing, I am eternally grateful this show ended when it did now that I've slept on it for a while. This show was always the Will and Hannibal show like the books should have been instead of shoehorning in that asinine romance with Little Miss Useless and completely getting rid of the second most interesting character in the series. I'm sad to see this show go and I love some of Fuller's ideas for season 4 but none of those ideas mean anything to me as long as she comes into play.

Oh, I think they could co-exist fine. I just find her inclusion in the series, this series especially, completely unneeded.

Have you read the actual books or are you just rambling? Lecter and Will have NO relationship. Lecter is a relatively minor character in Red Dragon. He has very few traits that people commonly associate with Hannibal Lecter (which were fleshed out primarily in SOTL). His relationship with Will is nonexistent. Will caught him by chance, literally the first time they met. Lecter did not consult with Will on the Hobbes investigation. He did not form a friendship with Will or see him as a kindred spirit (nor did Will see Lecter that way). Will and Lecter share all of two scenes in Red Dragon and they are fairly formal and adversarial.

To say that Clarice was "shoe horned into" Will and Hannibal's story (when referring to the books) is absurd and reflects ignorance regarding the book series. Anyone who has actually read the books realizes that there is no Will and Hannibal's story. Red Dragon is purely Will's story. Hannibal is a minor character who serves the purpose of moving the plot forward. He is a plot device. Nothing more. Further, Will's story ends with Red Dragon. Red Dragon is not the story of Will and Hannibal's relationship. It is the story of how Jack Crawford pushes Will Graham into exploring his inner-darkness and as a result Will becomes a broken, alcoholic, shell of a man. Red Dragon, if anything, is a tragedy of JACK destroying Will. Not Hannibal. All Hannibal does is set events in motion that get Will stabbed. And by that point, Will is already broken. It is a final insult, nothing else. And as I said, at the conclusion, Will's story is over after he is broken. The story and character had reached its natural conclusion and Harris was wise to leave it there (as he should've done with SOTL).

Hannibal's story does not begin until Silence of the Lambs, in which he is actually fleshed out as a character. Clarice is not shoehorned in, in any way. She is a character with whom Lecter actually shares a connection and a bond, which allows for both characters to be explored. SOTL is a character study of Clarice and Hannibal's relationship. Red Dragon is NOT a character study of Hannibal and Will's (nonexistent) relationship.

What I am saying is, to claim Clarice was shoehorned into Will and Lecter's story reflects an ignorance on the source material because there is no Will and Lecter story. And it is ironic that you say that while praising Hannibal (the TV series), considering the show basically shoehorned Will into Clarice's role. And you are free to say that is a better creative choice (its really not, Clarice is actually a fairly interesting character). But to act as if Harris somehow hijacked his own story and "shoehorned," Clarice into Will and Hannibal's story is absurd...because once again..THERE IS NO WILL AND HANNIBAL STORY (in the books).

 

[Maximus One]

Feel how you wanna feel, Matt. You just said that Red Dragon was Will's story which means he's the protagonist. Then, Harris switches protagonists on us in the next novel. I don't like it. I don't have to like it. Will is the more interesting character and always has been, in my opinion. That's just how I feel about it. You can say whatever you want and argue with me all you want, it's not going to change how I feel about this. Why switch protagonists out of nowhere like that? It's never made sense to me and it never will. It actually drives me a little crazy the more and more I think about it. Aside from a little mention of Will afterwards, Red Dragon is all we got of an infinitely more interesting character. And, that's just an egregious storytelling error in my eyes. It just is. And it shows throughout the rest of the series. That's why I feel the show will always be superior to the source material because the source material left so incredibly much to be desired in the first place. I'll even say, I would love to have seen Clarice and the rest of the series play out in the show if I'm being completely honest. I have faith that Fuller would actually do the character justice that Harris was never able to pull off.

 

[DarkSovereignty]

Plus, isn't Harris not that great of a writer any way? He's an ex cop or something who decided to take a crack at it or something. He hit gold with the Will and Hannibal characters and ran with it until Fuller could step in and add some artistry to it.

 

[Maximus One]

That's what I'm saying, it's not like Harris is this shining example of what a great writer is or something. Fuller is the one who saw the real potential there and made it something truly substantive. I mean, the books aren't really bad or anything but, they aren't the greatest things ever either and the show just took it and improved on them every step of the way to me.

 

[Matt]

Are you even reading what you are writing? "Harris's work was NOTHING until Fueller stepped in and saw the 'real potential' and made it art." Are you forgetting that there was a film, adapted incredibly faithfully (nearly scene for scene from Harris's work)...THAT WON THE BEST PICTURE ACADEMY AWARD!?

As for Harris's quality as a writer, it is quite high. Black Sunday, Red Dragon, SOTL, and Hannibal were all critically acclaimed in terms of writing. Some critics have knocked the ending of Hannibal but no one denies it was beautifully written.

The only Harris novel that has really received bad reviews is Hannibal Rising. And the general consensus is that Harris (who had retired at that point) either phoned it in or had it ghost written because De Laurentis threatened to make a prequel without him if he did not write it.

As for your comment about changing protagonists, that is equally absurd. He told Will's story to its conclusion. Why does he have an obligation to stick to that character for life?

But seriously, get your head out of Fueller's ass. You sound ridiculous when you say a story that won the Bram Stoker Award, the Anthony Award, appears on countless top mystery novel lists, and was adapted into the film that won best picture were not "truly substantive " or used to their "full potential" until this show was made.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Harris' actual prose I find quite dull, not really above any other airport thrillers. His real strength is plot and characters, but even that goes a little over the top at times, Hannibal with bright magenta eyes and six fingers on one hand? Come on. That's why I think Manhunter, Silence of the Lambs and yes, Ridely Scott's Hannibal work so much better than the novels for me. They're Harris' work distilled to a pure cinematic form.