Edgar Wright Leaves Ant-Man!! - Part 1

Discussion in 'Ant-Man' started by Thread Manager, May 25, 2014.

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  1. Shikamaru Registered

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    This :up::up::up:. Marvel was more fair to Wright, especially compared to everyone else who worked for them.

    The amount of Edgar Wright fanboyism on these boards has gotten ridiculous. That's exactly what it is at this point, and what it's arguably always been. Pure, militant, hardcore Wright fanboyism.

    I mean, let's review two things for a sec:
    1) Marvel's history with other directors/writers/actors.
    2) Wright's history with Marvel.

    So...Marvel's history with other people. Marvel screws Favreau with Iron Man 2, releasing the film prematurely and shoehorning in Avengers setups at the film's expense. Then some more crap happens behind closed doors with Iron Man 3, and Favreau walks as director. That's two films Marvel screws him over with. Then there's Norton, who Marvel fires for whatever reason and blames whatever happened on him in the media (the whole thing with him and Lettterier not getting along was blown out of proportion btw, confirmed by both). Then there's Branagh and Taylor, who both have their Thor films screwed over by Marvel to the point the final product was mediocre. The case with Howard is more debatable, but there were still rumors for a while that he also got screwed by Marvel. Whether or not that's true is a whole different story, but there were still many who jumped on the "Howard is at fault" bandwagon very early on. Then there's Shane Black who had an essential part of his film retconned away by a one-shot most people will never see. I never really cared for the Mandarin twist myself and was happy with the one-shot, but in a way, it did undo Black's vision since Black envisioned Killian as the modern Mandarin.

    Overall, this isn't anywhere near the first time Marvel "screwed" someone over. Which begs the question...where were all these fans who are crying foul when those other people got screwed over? Sure there were some to an extent, but none of those cases mirrored the outrage we see now with Wright. Which is not only inconsistent, but it also doesn't make much sense, especially since most of the names I brought up got screwed over more than Wright.

    Which brings me to my next point...Wright's history with Marvel.

    There is no one that had their ass kissed by Marvel as much as Wright did, for the past 8 years. They let him do the project from very early on. They let him go nuts with the property (until recently). They gave him almost a decade on it, letting him do other films in the meantime. They mapped the whole MCU in such way that it wouldn't contradict anything Wright was planning, including during and after they broke all box office records and had no reason to stay faithful to him anymore. They forced other directors, like Whedon, to adhere to his vision. Essentially they metaphorically sucked his private. Wright really had nothing to complain about. Marvel's put him on a pedestal to an extent they haven't put anyone else they worked with, not even Whedon (at least initially), and for some reason that still wasn't enough for both Wright and his fanbase.

    Really, this is a "right for the wrong reasons" case. It's true Marvel deserves flack for its treatment in the past, but the ONLY reason you people give two ****s in this case because you're all a bunch of whiny Edgar Wright fanboys. Because they dared to question the Great and Almighty Edgar Wright, which will apparently lead Marvel towards oblivion.

    What's even more boggling is that Wright himself, much like his loud annoying fanclub, seems to share that same mindset based on his tweet of Buster Keaton. The man sees himself as an auteur, an artist whose great vision should be immune to all mandates even if other films weren't immune to his mandates. It really gets me curious to see how he would have reacted in the shoes of someone like Favreau/Norton, or if Ant-Man was under a less risk-taking studio like WB.

    If there's anything Marvel deserves flack for, it's in the fact that they put all their eggs in one basket when it comes to Ant-Man/Wright. Much like his fanbase, they were just in love with the idea of Wright making a Marvel film so much, and now that's come to bite them in the butt. If there's any lesson here going forward, it's that they shouldn't put so much blind faith in a filmmaker, not that they should've never let go of the "Lord and Saviour".

    Statements like "Marvel makes childish ****** films controlled by Disney's yes men" are borderline ridiculous and are unfounded in every sense of the word. Even if that was true, it wouldn't be because of what happened with Wright.
     
  2. TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

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  3. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Well, with exception of Norton, who had a history of being difficult to work with, I gave Marvel **** for every other one of the instances you mentioned, as I always do when I feel they deserve it.

    I like Wright as a director, I have liked all of his movies, but he isnt even in my top 5 directors, so I wouldnt call myself a fanboy or anything. I just think this movie will take a large drop in quality because of Wright leaving (which is only a prediction at this point, the movie could still be great, I personally just dont have much confidence in it since Wright left). Had they gotten a good director to replace him I wouldnt have minded so much. But the fact remains that Peyton Reed is simply not as a good a director as Edgar Wright.
     
  4. fixxxer ...goes to 11

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    Look, I too adore Wright's films (2 great, 1 very good, 1 good... not going to say which is which :)), and I see your concerns here, but I think you're putting a little too much stock in the Auteur Theory. The auteur here, though the analogy doesn't exactly hold, is Marvel Studios. The director must work in concert with the MCU architects (Feige, Whedon and co.) so as not to jeopardize the integrity of the MCU. Otherwise, what's the point?

    From everything that's come out, it does seem like Wright was a little too rigid with his vision and felt he had to execute on the ideas he had in 2006 without compromise or oversight. I mean, Ang Lee is a director that's considerably more acclaimed than Wright and he still churned out the 2003 travesty that was Hulk. A little oversight, a little reigning in of his impulses by folks who better understood the genre and the source material might have resulted in a far superior film. That wasn't the case, and Marvel Studios now is not Universal then.

    As it stands, it does look like Marvel is intent on executing Wright's vision and script while making the changes that he was unwilling to. This is the right move. Reed might not be a director of Wright's caliber, but I firmly think this change will result in a better film. A great director alone a great movie does not make.

    (Just re-read that last sentence. Yoda seems to have temporarily occupied my brain. :))
     
  5. TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

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    I think Marvel wants Ant Man to be very mainstream, very appealing to all ages. I hope its the kind of movie thats endlessly rewatchable. It doesnt have to be super quirky or offbeat, just a fun, satisfying sci fi adventure.
     
  6. Ragnaroknroll Registered

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    I understand Aveit's concerns here even if I don't agree with his overall negativity. Marvel has to walk a fine line here and while they don't want to veer off the map and wreck the powerful brand they've built they also don't want to fall into the trap of delivering cookie cutter films either because that will weaken the brand as well.

    I believe Marvel knows this. I think it is apparent by how they keep working to mix things up. IM3 was a buddy cop style adventure, T:TDW a LOTR/Star Wars mashup mixed with rom-com, and CA:TWS a conspiracy-type thriller. GOTG is the first superhero space opera. Ant-Man a heist film. Their director choice for Doctor Strange seems to me to indicate an attempt to mix-in the horror genre. Whether or not you like what Marvel is doing, you can't say they are being complacent about their properties.

    It remains to be seen what kind of film Ant-Man will be but I think they are probably making the right call here. Considering the stable of characters they have to work with, I'd say Pym is actually pretty important in the grand scheme of things. I don't know how the whole thing is going to work with Michael Douglass, Ultron etc. but I imagine they are still thinking more long range for the viability of the character for the type of world building they are trying to accomplish. They could have let Wright create this amazing standalone Ant-Man film that is just one big dead end for future films. Yeah maybe you could "sequelize" it but it would probably feel contrived. That's not Marvel's style. They like to build things over time and plant seeds along the way for future storylines - much like the comics.

    Yes Wright is a loss but I find it interesting that they replaced him with not one but two directors. (Even though McKay is not in the chair, as the writer he will have a lot of creative input.)

    Personally I'm pretty trusting in Marvel at this stage despite their missteps because I feel they are doing something really special and I don't want to see them screw it up. I think this was just a case of two sides really wanting to make this work for 8 years but then in the end realizing it just can't work.
     
  7. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Ha ha, well, you are talking to someone who loves Ang Lee's Hulk and has loved it since 2003. I created a whole thread about the movie and how much I love it.

    So obviously on this point we are not going to see eye-to-eye. I just personally think the oppurtunity to make this movie something really special left with Edgar Wright. I am now fully expecting Ant-Man to be typical Marvel fare and they are the type of movies the MCU could do with less of in my eyes.

    TWS really changed things up and that is more what they should be aiming for, everything about their choices for Ant-Man over the last few months just screams 'playing it safe' to me. We will have to wait and see, but my personal interest in this movie is now barely above 0.
     
  8. TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

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    IMO the first movies of any super hero franchise should be the easiest to get into and pretty straight forward style/tone wise (see Iron Man). That doesnt mean they have to be completely unartistic, just not so over the top it pulls you out of the story going on. Then if they do really well they can get more wacky with it.
     
    #958 TheVision, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  9. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    And thats a sentiment I fully agree with, but they should also try and make the best movie they can IMO, I just dont get that vibe here, I get a more 'play it safe' vibe.

    But thats just me.
     
  10. fixxxer ...goes to 11

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    Dammit. :) In one fell swoop you cut the legs out from under my post's thesis (as applicable to you) and killed this debate in it's crib. :) Our opinions on the 2003 Hulk are so divergent that further discussion on the basis of that film would be completely moot. In a Mr. Burns-esque voice, well played, sir. :)

    But kidding aside, I really don't think this has to do with tone or artistic vision. Neither do I think Marvel's playing it safe. If they wanted less "quirk" (whatever that means... I'll use "identity" in its stead) they would never have chosen Wright in the first place. Feige has always wanted to make an Edgar Wright joint. With or without him. I truly believe they still want to maintain as much of Wright's aesthetic as possible. And Wright's aesthetic, believe it or not, has a lot more to do with what's written on paper than is filmed on, um, film.

    I believe Wright leaving had more to do with tangible plot points that were incompatible with the MCU, that Wright was unwilling to change than it had to do with Marvel playing it safe. El Mayimbe's a clever troll in the way he mixes half truths with lies to further his own agenda, while calling it "breaking news" or "scoops" or whatever the hell he calls it. All that stuff about Disney executives going over Feige's head to make the movie more vanilla, more cookie-cutter absolutely stunk of a revenge-driven agenda.

    I'm still extremely optimistic about this. In any case, we shall see in about a year.
     
  11. Rock Sexton Registered

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    Truthfully I have a hard time taking concerns seriously over making "best movie they can" by people who gave glowing praise of Transformers: Age of Extinction.

    Beyond that, Edgar is gone. It's like the same conversation over and over again in here. Discussion should be focusing in on what McKay and Reed can do.
     
    #961 Rock Sexton, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  12. Joeyjojo72 Registered

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    At this point you are absolutely correct.
     
  13. RickCoronel Registered

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    I was looking at an old interview with Kevin Feige and came across this:

     
  14. DA_Champion Registered

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    James Gunn says all the right things in public. He's like a politician.
     
  15. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Ha ha, oh well, these things happen :yay:.

    Well you just never know the truth, we can speculate and guess as to what went on but we will never know unless it comes out in a few years from either party.

    We will have to wait and see with the movie as well, as with all CBM's I am hoping for the best but wouldnt be surprised if the movie is really safe and vanilla. But we will see.

    This sentence just sums up you and your attitude perfectly. And giving a movie 7.5 (less than I have TDW and IM3 BTW) and saying its not a good movie but it entertained me is 'glowing praise' now? Wow. And have you ever seen me defend the actual quality of the movie? No, and you never will. People have different opinions than you, go figure.

    Its the Edgar Wright thread. So of course people are going to talk about him and the situation. Its also why I wont be bringing it up in the other threads in here anymore.
     
    #965 AVEITWITHJAMON, Jul 6, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2014
  16. TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

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    ^^ OK but to keep stretching that out at this point doesnt do much good. We all know what happened and hes not coming back. Why keep beating a dead horse?
     
  17. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    ^Again, its the Edgar Wright leaves Ant-Man thread, I am not commenting about it in any other Ant_man thread, and wont. As I said in the orginal post, after watching and loving The Worlds End and loving it, it made me more sorry he had left this movie.
     
  18. Shikamaru Registered

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    I'm talking about the fanbase as a collective group. We haven't seen anywhere near the same outrage with other people Marvel screwed over than we do with Wright. You didn't hear claims such as "this is the end of great directors working with Marvel" or "Marvel makes Disney **** family films" as constant as you do with Wright when everyone else walked. Keep in mind in the case of some of those people, it was before Marvel had the rep they have today. Yet even then, a decent percentage was still willing to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt.

    Which is my whole point. Why does Wright deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case more than Marvel and, more specifically, more than the likes of the Favreau/Norton types? If people are quick to assume Favreau didn't have a vision after IM1 or that Norton was being unfair despite there being no solid evidence of that, what is there to show that Wright was clearly the one wronged in this? You guys are acting like Marvel is this big bully that enforced their will and power on Wright, but that's really not the case. As I said in my last post, you can't act like Marvel wasn't being fair to Wright in the slightest based on their relationship with him for the past 8 years. There's no one who got as much leeway from Marvel as Wright did, not even Whedon.

    I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for the guy just for that. Anyone who gets that such usually-unrealistic amount of freedom from a studio like Marvel, being fully aware what work they're getting into from the beginning only to walk away and tweet such a stereotypically-******** complaint, is no victim to me.

    Also, you're jumping to the conclusion that I think Ant-Man is in good hands under Reed. Frankly I think the film's doomed and the only reason Marvel's going forward with it is to avoid bad publicity, since they marketed the whole thing on Wright. Wright or not, I'm not looking forward to it. If it was up to me, I would scrap the whole thing and introduce Hank/Jan in the universe whenever it feels appropriate, whether it's in an Ant-Man solo or an Avengers film.
     
  19. Dyson Registered

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    This whole Edgar Wright replaced with Peyton Reed debacle makes me think of what happened when “Back to the Future” was in the middle of its production in the 1980s.

    As many movie fans know, when “Back to the Future” had start filming it wasn’t Michael J. Fox playing Marty McFly. It was Eric Stoltz, and nearly half of the film was shot with Stoltz in the role. Then after director Robert Zemeckis and producer Steven Spielberg looked at some footage, they felt Stoltz wasn’t right in the role that fit the overall vision for the film. Then Michael J. Fox was cast, some scenes were rewritten, everything else was reshot, the film ended being beloved by all and we have the “Back to the Future” that is now considered a true classic.

    In the early 1980s, Stoltz was landing good roles like in films such as “Mask” and was climbing up to become a major movie star. Imagine what it was like for him to be told that he was being let go mid-way through filming on this exciting movie, and to then watch the film go on to be a huge blockbuster hit that launched Michael J. Fox into bigger, better film projects. It must have been devastating. Many people, like myself, do wonder what the film would have been like with Stoltz as McFly, but in the end, Fox was the right guy for the vision of the film. We were always meant to have the version of “Back to the Future” that we have now.

    This is a lot like what is happening with “Ant-Man”.

    It’s clear that Edgar Wright – who is known to be a perfectionist of a filmmaker and a guy who wants to shoot his full, creative vision – wasn’t going to work out in the whole scheme of things with “Ant-Man” and Marvel. Wright’s overall vision of the film just didn’t mix with Marvel’s vision of this film which is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. We all know that Wright was attached to “Ant-Man” since 2006, and we know that this was his passion project. I suspect that after years of delaying the movie, he would have had a really hard time filming the movie if he had started shooting already.

    I hope to see more Edgar Wright directed films in the future as he is a talented guy. And yes, an Edgar Wright directed “Ant-Man” does sound great! There is no doubt about that, and I’m sure it was very hard for Wright to walk away but clearly his vision was never meant to make it to the big screen.

    Lots of Marvel and comic book fans have bashed the choice of Peyton Reed to direct as a serious step down. While Reed’s films are different from Wright’s films, I don’t believe Reed was picked because Marvel was so desperate for a director that they just needed someone to point the camera and yell out “Action!” If they needed that, I’m sure they could have locked down any director and within days filming would begin, much like what happened when Brett Ratner was hired to direct X3. Ratner had a few days to prep and then start shooting. This isn’t the case here.

    I think the people at Marvel knew what they were doing when they asked Reed to direct and I don’t think Reed is just some standard camera shooter. Look at his film "Down with Love" and you'll see he is a guy that can bring in a unique vision to good material. Reed has been prepping for a month now and gets another month before shooting starts. Reed will bring a solid vision that mixes well with Marvel’s plans for “Ant-Man” and Marvel is going to surround him with some of the best talent in Hollywood today like Adam McKay as the new screenwriter.

    In the end, a Peyton Reed directed “Ant-Man” could end up as a really great, entertaining film that both Marvel fans and general moviegoers may embrace and love... much like what happened with “Back to the Future” starring Michael J. Fox.
     
    #969 Dyson, Jul 6, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  20. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Again, the only time I have given Marvel leeway in these situations was with Norton, because, though I love the guy as an actor, he is notoriously difficult to work with. With Favreau and IM2, I slated Marvel for that, because I think without their interference the film would have been much better, same with TIH, and the same with TDW.

    So, no, I didnt give Marvel a pass over those other things except Norton, and No I am not a Wright fanboy. I just think Marvel have really missed a trick by letting him go from this project.
     
  21. Mike Murdock Registered

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    To be honest, while the Black Widow scenes were perhaps distracting from the tone, the claim usually is that a lot of scenes giving depth to the villain (and building up the dual father-son dynamic) were cut. But I don't really think Black Widow's scenes were all that substantial in terms of total runtime. Has anyone tried to analyze just how much time the "Marvel meddling" took up and explained just what would have been different.

    All that being said, I will say this for Marvel meddling (which generally gives me some concerns, especially in light of ASM2, which tells me we got lucky IM2 wasn't even worse): Yes, a hands off approach may have led to a better Iron Man 2. But would it have led to a worse Avengers?
     
  22. Jasyn Agent of F.U.B.A.R.

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    (slightly edited to fix typos)

    I must confess I'm an uneducated, ignorant fool, in the fact that I don't really know who meddled with whose diddle and which twit tangled whom's plot lines, but I rather enjoyed the final product of IM2. I honestly look at it as one of the stronger MCU movies: cool villain (even though a comic blender mix), Tony & Pepper romance escalated and works great on screen, great War Machine intro, (in my opinion) great Black Widow introduction, and an excellent final battle sequence. I was sad to see Jon Favreau not direct IM3 (and thought it was one of the weaker MCU movies), but honestly back when IM1 and IM2 came out I had no clue that Happy was the director. I just blindly had fun with the finished work.


    On the same token I loved Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz for years without paying any attention at all to who the hell the director of either was until I started participating in these boards. Edgar Wright will most likely never work with another Marvel project, so I hope folks can just learn to live with it and move on. Its just fun entertainment, not life and death issues folks.
     
    #972 Jasyn, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  23. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    Maybe Wright will go to Fox and work on a Longshot movie, because it would be such a long shot of making that movie at the pace he works. :p
     
  24. DA_Champion Registered

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    It is interesting that there's more outrage over how Marvel treated Wright than what they did to Johnston, Leterrier, Norton, jenkins, and Taylor.

    I'm not sure why that would be. Though it's certainly true that Edgar Wright is extremely talented ... so is Patty Jenkins.
     
  25. Donut Registered

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    Another way 2 look at this is Edgar is 2 blame for Edgar. Had he not taken over 9,000 years to make this movie before the MCU was born like he was supposed 2. He would have been able 2 make the movie his way without changes. You cant blame Disney / MARVEL for wanting their characters 2 all connect 2 each other. Who does Edgar think he is Guillermo Del Toro ?
     
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