Even if both Goku and Superman had no powers....Goku would still win...

If by 'powers' you mean 'the manipulation of chi', he would still win. If you'd read by post before you'd know that there is no way for Goku or anything else to be living without chi inside them. Just because he doesn't have the ability to use chi doesn't mean it wouldn't still be inside him. And with chi inside him Supes' attacks would be pretty useless as Goku's strength would not have really diminished. Plus, as stated by so many before me, before he even had the ability to use his own chi Goku was easily capable of destroying boulders in a single grasp. Look at the very first Dragon Ball tankobon if you want further info on it.

Let's not go to that extreme. Without any powers Superman can handle himself okay, whereas Mr. Satan considers a 'feat of great strength' to be breaking through a few tiles one-handed.

 

But you can help your attitude and language. If someone has an opinion that is different than yours, it doesn't make them smarter or dumber....it makes them someone with an opinion that is different than yours.

You can discuss and debate and even argue about things....but you don't have to get rude and call people names. Don't continue these actions.

 

Yep, I couldn't tell at first, but now I'm sure of it. You're a DBZ hater.

 

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO superman gotta gun AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Why doesnt he use that 10000 years of training u raved about. He gotta gat AHAHAHAAH

 

Just because I don't think DBZ is the most powerful thing ever doesn't mean I hate it.

Oh, and here's a nice link for you.

 

I don't know, maybe because at that point, he hadn't undergone the training yet?

 

No, he can't. If you're applying realworld physics, then thats impossible unless you have some kind of power.

Why can Goku destroy boulders with a punch? Because he focuses his chi into his strength.
Why can Goku leave afterimages behind? Because he focuses his chi into his speed.

Goku without his powers, which would have to include his chi focusing would be nothing more than a medium to high classed martial arts expert. Superman would be above high. Why? Because he trained for over 1000 years 'earth time'.

You can't deny facts, though because you're a fanboy, you will. It's actually disgusting.

 

Nope because you think an average joe(that bering superman) can defeat a martial arts master (that being Goku) in a fight concludes that. And its not like I haven't been observing you. You bash Goku every chance you get. Your sig is proof. Not to mention in that one thread where you swore up and down Popeye the sailorman could defeat Goku. I've seen people like you on several websites. And I have concluded that debating with people like you is pointless.

 

now hold on RIGHT there... Superman is NO average Joe. Pre-Crisis Superman has a really good chance on giving a good fight with Goku, and he's certainly no Average Joe.

 

He doesn't have his powers in this scenario. Neither does Goku, though.

 

Yeah he is definatly a hater.
As soon as he got here he was bashing goku.

 

you should see dude on other sites, his DBZ hate is quite consistent and remarkable

 

i dont think goku may have avantage in the fighting skill in superman....if there's no power during the fight i pretty sure they would be even..(since i readed some comic so i sure that superman's skill too.)

superman's skill much better than vegeta and gohan, and almost as good as piccolo and trunks(if there's no power or ki in comparison)!!

goku can defeat any villiam becuz he just lucky...he always beat them by power but not skill.....so i'm sure superman can easily take even match with goku!!

 

Completely false. Superman has no martial arts training because he never took it. Thats because he was afraid he'd be too strong with any martial arts in his background.
In actuallity Supermans martial arts skill isn't even up there with Yajirobe.

 

I love the way you guys argue about this....if only as much time and effort was made on finding a cure for cancer.

Who can beat up who while they both have their powers is up to your personal preference....they are not both from the same comic/movie/TV/anime frame of reference....so whichever one you want to be stronger will be stronger in your mind.

As to who would win if they both had their superpowers removed....with me not being able to care less about Dragonball and being a Superman fan....I'd have to say Goku would win. Superman without his super powers is fairly strong agile guy....Goku without his superpowers is still a trained martial artist....I always give the edge to the trained martial artist.

 

Moving fast enough for light refraction to slow down isn't a superpower...it's that the normal human body can't handle that speed that makes it impossible. We turn into messy globs way before then. However, if you'd actually notice what I was saying before, since there's no way to strip him of chi the same principle would indirectly apply- since afterimages aren't a byproduct of the martial arts so much as light refraction no longer continuing with a moving object and Goku without the chi to do that would be dead if we were talking about a living Goku the point of 'realworld physics' would still be moot. It is the application of chi in unnatural ways that conflicts with physics and not the indirect application of what's already there. Strip both combatants of this to equalize them and there would be no point to the fight. You would have the "first Shinto human effect", two people barely breathing and slumped onto the ground with most of their body withered and/ or shutting down.

You don't get it do you? Goku without chi means he's dead. Superman without chi means he's dead. Chi is needed for existence. In it's most basic form all it represents is the breath of life within us all. Without it this battle can't happen. If you're going to say any feat of strength done with the exertion of chi in the body can't be used as it's defined as a 'superpower' in your eyes and make a chi-less Goku you end up with Dead Superman vs. Dead Goku. If you would so kindly do your research into the principle you'd find that everything from breathing to excresion of waste from the body is connected to the healthy (or, at times, unhealthy) flow of chi through channels believed to be throughout the body. Hence the premise of acupuncture- restoration of the basic bodily functions. It has nothing to do with 'focus' when you move or grip something. Focusing chi to the point that you do something extraordinary that normally could never be done by the limitations of matter (and yes, at the height of human potential Son Goku's early feats are paltry) is when it can be properly designated as a 'superpower'. Thus, the Kamehameha could not be used- it's an visually outward extension of chi, something that has never been scientifically proven or recorded. But if you're so adamant of Goku having no chi whatsoever, here's a screenshot from the anime at a point where he had no chi (or what you've convoluted into a 'superpower'):

You know, just because I'm a fan doesn't mean that I can't debate rationally. Just because I see things differently from you doesn't mean I have some ravenous agenda. I can see Superman winning in a fight with the Hulk and a Pre-Crisis Superman beating most all DBZ-related characters outside of Super Vegetto. It's just under the circumstances debated in this topic (both combatants stripped of what both sides consider to be 'superpowers') that I see a different outcome. If you've notice, I've yet to post 'goku wins cuz he's the strongest' or that you're ignorant for not agreeing.

I actually came into this topic with the naivete that this was a logical conversation on two characters and not a flame war.

 

No you're missing the point. I said that if we stripped them down to their rawest form, Goku wouldn't CHANNEL his chi. Not that he wouldn't have it. But if you're gonna say "well that wouldn't happen, he can channel it anyway!" (which I'm fairly certain you did, as I didn't really read past the first few sentences.) then Superman would retain his "channeling" of our sun's solar powers, giving him his 'powers' back.

I mean, if Goku can utalize his chi to his best ability, then Superman can utalize the solar beams to help.

 

No you're missing the point. I said that if we stripped them down to their rawest form, Goku wouldn't CHANNEL his chi. Not that he wouldn't have it. But if you're gonna say "well that wouldn't happen, he can channel it anyway!" (which I'm fairly certain you did, as I didn't really read past the first few sentences.) then Superman would retain his "channeling" of our sun's solar powers, giving him his 'powers' back.

I mean, if Goku can utalize his chi to his best ability, then Superman can utalize the solar beams to help.

 

No you're missing the point. I said that if we stripped them down to their rawest form, Goku wouldn't CHANNEL his chi. Not that he wouldn't have it. But if you're gonna say "well that wouldn't happen, he can channel it anyway!" (which I'm fairly certain you did, as I didn't really read past the first few sentences.) then Superman would retain his "channeling" of our sun's solar powers, giving him his 'powers' back.

I mean, if Goku can utalize his chi to his best ability, then Superman can utalize the solar beams to help.

 

No you're missing the point. I said that if we stripped them down to their rawest form, Goku wouldn't CHANNEL his chi. Not that he wouldn't have it. But if you're gonna say "well that wouldn't happen, he can channel it anyway!" (which I'm fairly certain you did, as I didn't really read past the first few sentences.) then Superman would retain his "channeling" of our sun's solar powers, giving him his 'powers' back.

I mean, if Goku can utalize his chi to his best ability, then Superman can utalize the solar beams to help.

 

No you're missing the point. I said that if we stripped them down to their rawest form, Goku wouldn't CHANNEL his chi. Not that he wouldn't have it. But if you're gonna say "well that wouldn't happen, he can channel it anyway!" (which I'm fairly certain you did, as I didn't really read past the first few sentences.) then Superman would retain his "channeling" of our sun's solar powers, giving him his 'powers' back.

I mean, if Goku can utalize his chi to his best ability, then Superman can utalize the solar beams to help.

 

Yeah...I said nothing of the such. I explicitly stated that all things have chi within them, and that it is the unnatural application or conscious 'channeling' of said chi that makes things such as chi blasts possible (and thusly negated by the parameters of this thread), but that it's impossible to completely strip a being of their chi. Two completely different beasts, which kills about half of your contribution. I actually read your post before responding, so that you know...but don't mind me, I'm the 'raving fanboy who listens to nothing but his own voice'.

All things have chi. But not all things have Kryptonian side-effects to yellow sunlight. So no, that would not be an applicable comparison in this situation.

 

Why are we even arguing this?

 

But you are applying the law of chi on a character that was never stated to have any chi and thats not fair! Stop trying to rationalize a way for Goku to retain his power while Clark doesn't. In this fight Goku's chi is reduced to that of the level an average person yet he retains his martial art skills.

 

All things have chi. All. Things. Even Clark. Even Kryptonite. Everything. The principle of chi is just that- a principle. Neither DC nor Toriyama-sensei needs to get into the laws of physics to explain why the characters stay grounded. It's something that's taken as common knowledge. The same applies to chi- no matter whom, it's inside. You can't just 'reduced Son Goku to the level of an average person'. That would be diminishing his ability to sustain himself severely and make the battle a clash of the sloths, neither person really being capable of a winning (let alone killing) blow.

And yes- chi applies to Clark. If Goku's powers could affect Superman and Superman's powers could have an affect on Goku then the same principles their powers work under have to be considered. Goku draws his power from a mix of latent and focused chi, while Superman draws power from his Kryptonian heritage and yellow solar reserves.