Fant4stic Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 31

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Its kind of a blanket statement.. i dont think his acting ability is going to change the way people see the casting choice. I dont think this is a heath ledger/joker situation

Well, do you know why I am okay with a black Deadshot? Because of Will Smith. Because of his acting talents.
 
In the very beginning yes but over the past couple of months, I've honestly haven't that at all. There are so many other problems with this movie and promotion, that's the least of Fox's concerns.

This. That was all initial shock. Theyve got bigger issues than a race change. And thats what they should be addressing. Instead theyre playing the victim card and will likely blame the films failure on it and say ""its sad but i guess the world still isnt ready or as accepting" rather than put the blame on the many other failures and factors
 
Read more posts... the comment was based as if people were complaining about his skill... it was bogus. No one blames mbj ir dislikes him for being cast in this film... its not a personal attack on him

I read them fine.
Thing is, the people that have defended the casting or approached it with an open mind did so on the same principle these sorts of castings are always defended by in the face of rabid fanboys. The talent involved. Whether it be the actor or filmmaker, the talent is always mentioned by the defenders.
Especially when people bring up source material changes or some such.
So it's kinda odd to see now this idea that his talent was never questioned. Yea ok. Something sure as hell was however and it appears as stated by defenders from the jump, his talent will be there to shine though and make it work regardless. As per the Gabe sentiment and that of the fans.

It's on the detractors to re-examine what it was they thought would be lacking. Apparently it wasn't something significant or relevant like his talent, perhaps something more...superficial(wild guess).
 
In the very beginning yes but over the past couple of months, I've honestly haven't heard that at all. There are so many other problems with this movie and promotion, that's the least of Fox's concerns.

People finding new things to complain about in the face of a movie they are against..
Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

When people find something new to complain about or god forbid even come around on Leto's tattoo's, that won't change the idea that fans rallied against yet another creative liberty before giving it a shot.
 
I read them fine.
Thing is, the people that have defended the casting or approached it with an open mind did so on the same principle these sorts of castings are always defended by in the face of rabid fanboys. The talent involved. Whether it be the actor or filmmaker, the talent is always mentioned by the defenders.
Especially when people bring up source material changes or some such.
So it's kinda odd to see now this idea that his talent was never questioned. Yea ok. Something sure as hell was however and it appears as stated by defenders from the jump, his talent will be there to shine though and make it work regardless. As per the Gabe sentiment and that of the fans.

It's on the detractors to re-examine what it was they thought would be lacking. Apparently it wasn't something significant or relevant like his talent, perhaps something more...superficial(wild guess).

But thats just it... comics are a visual medium.. its perfectly ok for fans to have a superficial view and want the film based on characters they know and love... to *gasp* look like characters they know and love...
 
People finding new things to complain about in the face of a movie they are against..
Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

When people find something new to complain about or god forbid even come around on Leto's tattoo's, that won't change the idea that fans rallied against yet another creative liberty before giving it a shot.

Here's where our opinions differ greatly. I went to art school and am a professional graphic designer. I love art, have a great respect for it... but when you deal with commercial art... your own personal vision is sacraficed for what the audience or clients want. Just because something is changed for the sake of creativity... does not mean it was a good decision or a respectable one.

Unlike an indie film, or a director who helps create his own project... thesefilms that are a franchise in their own right and already have a built in fanbase... should thrive to appease the devoted fanbase... they shouldnt care less about them nor should they disrespect them. Without them the film wouldnt even exist
 
But thats just it... comics are a visual medium.. its perfectly ok for fans to have a superficial view and want the film based on characters they know and love... to *gasp* look like characters they know and love...

Here's where our opinions differ greatly. I went to art school and am a professional graphic designer. I love art, have a great respect for it... but when you deal with commercial art... your own personal vision is sacraficed for what the audience or clients want. Just because something is changed for the sake of creativity... does not mean it was a good decision or a respectable one.

Unlike an indie film, or a director who helps create his own project... thesefilms that are a franchise in their own right and already have a built in fanbase... should thrive to appease the devoted fanbase... they shouldnt care less about them nor should they disrespect them. Without them the film wouldnt even exist
Your vision is sacrificed for what the audience/clients want? And who is the audience in this scenario, and when will the filmmakers hear from them? The potential GA is almost infinitely larger than this group of people you are referring to imo. If you want something that is going to cater to you as an audience, go out and make it, but don't assume to take ownership on something that's in fact going to be presented to the world(literally). This claim that your opinion is more sacred if you will, under the mantle of 'we the fans' is interesting. What makes it more valued than my opinion, I'm a life long comic book reader and I've bought a few F4 books(mostly during the Liquid era), does that now mean my opinion or wants has some majority share? I'm one of these important clients that has given my patronage(to marvel, not fox btw) so my rantings need be addressed?

You talk about not disrespecting the so called 'devoted' fanbase, I ask what qualifies as disrespect. For I see the term thrown around every time a change is made 'fans' don't like. Yesterday, removing superman's shorts is disrespect, tmr it's a skin color change. You play so fast and loose with the term it loses meaning. Save it for when it matters imo.
The real trouble is, why is it ok for such changes to occur in, incanon comics but in movies(which are elsewords by definition) it's an issue. I can only imagine if Nick Fury was made black before the comics said it was ok, and by fox no less...

As for a visual medium. Comics aren't paintings on church ceilings. They are built on context, and scripting as well. It's why you can have a book like Kingdom come fully celebrated, context!
Old man logan, magneto in an xmen uniform, this new Bruce Timm animated stuff.
Fans need to allow for context to be considered before going rabid at stuff that really doesn't matter. Or at least weigh what it is that actually matters before crying foul. Especially before the fact.
That's what I think anyways.
 
It probably helps that hes a minor character and usually wears a mask too...

Except Deadshot will be one of the leads of Suicide Squad, and given Will Smith's ego, expect that mask to be off most of the time.
 
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Your vision is sacrificed for what the audience/clients want? And who is the audience in this scenario, and when will the filmmakers hear from them? The potential GA is almost infinitely larger than this group of people you are referring to imo. If you want something that is going to cater to you as an audience, go out and make it, but don't assume to take ownership on something that's in fact going to be presented to the world(literally). This claim that your opinion is more sacred if you will, under the mantle of 'we the fans' is interesting. What makes it more valued than my opinion, I'm a life long comic book reader and I've bought a few F4 books(mostly during the Liquid era), does that now mean my opinion or wants has some majority share? I'm one of these important clients that has given my patronage(to marvel, not fox btw) so my rantings need be addressed?

You talk about not disrespecting the so called 'devoted' fanbase, I ask what qualifies as disrespect. For I see the term thrown around every time a change is made 'fans' don't like. Yesterday, removing superman's shorts is disrespect, tmr it's a skin color change. You play so fast and loose with the term it loses meaning. Save it for when it matters imo.
The real trouble is, why is it ok for such changes to occur in, incanon comics but in movies(which are elsewords by definition) it's an issue. I can only imagine if Nick Fury was made black before the comics said it was ok, and by fox no less...

As for a visual medium. Comics aren't paintings on church ceilings. They are built on context, and scripting as well. It's why you can have a book like Kingdom come fully celebrated, context!
Old man logan, magneto in an xmen uniform, this new Bruce Timm animated stuff.
Fans need to allow for context to be considered before going rabid at stuff that really doesn't matter. Or at least weigh what it is that actually matters before crying foul. Especially before the fact.
That's what I think anyways.

Im talking about the audience that made these characters what they are today... and not offshoot alt reality stories.

After all... if people loved these characters for 60 years... dont you think the general audience would love them to if depicted properly?
 
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Except Deadshot will be one of the leads of Suicide Squad, and given Will Smith's ego, expect that mask to be off most of the time.

... except im talking more so about the comic character... who is a minor character in the DC universe (b list at best, not an A lister) who usually is wearing a mask... its easier to change characters like that.

Like i have no issue with baron mordo being black or the ancient one being a woman... but change peter parker, bruce wayne, storm, black panther, etc... and ill have issues
 
... except im talking more so about the comic character... who is a minor character in the DC universe (b list at best, not an A lister) who usually is wearing a mask... its easier to change characters like that.

Like i have no issue with baron mordo being black or the ancient one being a woman... but change peter parker, bruce wayne, storm, black panther, etc... and ill have issues

Johnny Storm is hardly an A-List character now a days. Hasn't really been for decades. In fact, Deadshot has been seeing a surge of popularity over the recent years.

Also, unless they are of an icon level like the trifecta of Spiderman, Superman and Batman, I don't see the problem with changing the race of a character, when it plays no part into their character. There is zero elements to Johnny Storm's character that ask he be white.

People shouldn't be reacting the way they are over that change.
 
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Im talking about the audience that made these characters what they are today... and not offshoot alt reality stories.

After all... if people loved these characters for 60 years... dont you think the general audience would love them to if depicted properly?

A great deal of that audience you are gearing up to reach has not given a damn about F4 for 60 years. I know this because if they had, the sales would have been though the roof...for over 60 years. Funny enough, sales are so poor it's being cancelled.
Again, if all the studio intended to do was make this sect of people happy then sure you're in a way right, though not completely, for fans also loves shake ups. But this is the WW movie going public, half of which(see Pacific Islands) not knowing what this stuff is, the other half willingly rejecting it in that they didn't buy books even though they knew of it.
Another portion having to be brought back around to the concept given they probably wouldn't pay for what looked to be a sequel to what's already come.

To answer your question plainly. I don't know if the GA would love them too if done 'properly'. I don't assume they would or wouldn't. I do however know what the book sales indicate though...

This has been my point since day one. One could argue that Adam West and Lynda Carter brought those to characters to the american forefront and in family living rooms for years. One could argue that. For this same person to then argue that a different less 'properly' take wouldn't do as well or isn't respecting what it's been for years is self important imo. Along comes Burton/Miller/Moore even Azzarella and offers up something new to the mythology and lo and behold the mythology now has two different types of fans and is simply larger for it. F4 doesn't have to be just one thing and for one person is my point. As usual it takes hindsight for this point to be proven(again and again). This is what keeps comic books alive and well in my experience, a diverse and evolving and always relevant mythology for new and old fans to pull from.

It's happening right now with bond in the modern spy landscape.
 
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JW yes, was a popcorn flick, but i cant honestly think of a film that has ever woven in the nostalgia of its predecessor so easily, respectfully and flawlessly . Every reference fit the narritive and was so skillfully put together. Collin desserves a massive hunk of credit for that. He clearly loved the first jurassic park very very much

Yet he didn't have the greatest time making it. He said he will be moving to smaller more creative projects before taking on another franchise. Which is essentially what Trank, and Whedon have said earlier.
 
I never even bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm. I'm fine with him. Great actor. Move on already. But what irks me is that the defenders of this film always bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm and then imply that the people unhappy with the direction of this film are a bunch of racists. Even the director of the stinking film called people racists on Twitter. It's pathetic. I wonder if critics will be afraid to give an honest review of the film because they don't want to be labelled racist.
 
I never even bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm. I'm fine with him. Great actor. Move on already. But what irks me is that the defenders of this film always bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm and then imply that the people unhappy with the direction of this film are a bunch of racists. Even the director of the stinking film called people racists on Twitter. It's pathetic. I wonder if critics will be afraid to give an honest review of the film because they don't want to be labelled racist.

There are people in the WORLD who are racist. Some of those people are detractors of the film are and have expressed those views. Trank and MBJ aren't making up the hate they've received for the casting. I don't see why fans take it so personal like they are talking about them specifically.
 
There are people in the WORLD who are racist. Some of those people are detractors of the film are and have expressed those views. Trank and MBJ aren't making up the hate they've received for the casting. I don't see why fans take it so personal like they are talking about them specifically.

You are right - I've seen it and I steer clear of boards like that. IMDB for example is utterly repugnant. But I don't see that kind of discussion here. Things stay civil and intelligent arguments are given. And yet it keeps getting brought up by the defenders - on this very board - which is a little offensive frankly.
 
There are people in the WORLD who are racist. Some of those people are detractors of the film are and have expressed those views. Trank and MBJ aren't making up the hate they've received for the casting. I don't see why fans take it so personal like they are talking about them specifically.

Maybe they take it personally, because everyone who says they are against the MBJ casting are immediately called racists. It doesn't matter that only some of the people against the casting are racists.....everyone gets called it.
 
I wonder if critics will be afraid to give an honest review of the film because they don't want to be labelled racist.

Wow so now that is your excuse if this movie gets positive reviews?

That critics are afraid to be labeled racists?

You are right - I've seen it and I steer clear of boards like that. IMDB for example is utterly repugnant. But I don't see that kind of discussion here. Things stay civil and intelligent arguments are given. And yet it keeps getting brought up by the defenders - on this very board - which is a little offensive frankly.

Actually it was brought up as I tried to quote Gabe's all related tweets and picked up by another member.

G@BRIELGR@Y ‏@GBRIELGRY 16h
Oh and those who complained about Michael B Jordan's Human Torch will eat those words.

But it's not even about being racists. There are people who complain about his casting, so Gabe responded with this. I don't see racism is directly involved here.
 
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Johnny Storm is hardly an A-List character now a days. Hasn't really been for decades. In fact, Deadshot has been seeing a surge of popularity over the recent years.

Also, unless they are of an icon level like the trifecta of Spiderman, Superman and Batman, I don't see the problem with changing the race of a character, when it plays no part into their character. There is zero elements to Johnny Storm's character that ask he be white.

People shouldn't be reacting the way they are over that change.

Umm the past 5 years doesnt erase 60 years of focal history... the human torch , invisible woman, the thing, and mr. Fantastic are infinitely more well known by the general public than deadshot has ever been and will likely ever be... every generation alive today over the age of 70 has pretty much grown up with some version of the fantastic four. To say otherwise is absolutely rediculous
 
A great deal of that audience you are gearing up to reach has not given a damn about F4 for 60 years. I know this because if they had, the sales would have been though the roof...for over 60 years. Funny enough, sales are so poor it's being cancelled.
Again, if all the studio intended to do was make this sect of people happy then sure you're in a way right, though not completely, for fans also loves shake ups. But this is the WW movie going public, half of which(see Pacific Islands) not knowing what this stuff is, the other half willingly rejecting it in that they didn't buy books even though they knew of it.
Another portion having to be brought back around to the concept given they probably wouldn't pay for what looked to be a sequel to what's already come.

To answer your question plainly. I don't know if the GA would love them too if done 'properly'. I don't assume they would or wouldn't. I do however know what the book sales indicate though...

This has been my point since day one. One could argue that Adam West and Lynda Carter brought those to characters to the american forefront and in family living rooms for years. One could argue that. For this same person to then argue that a different less 'properly' take wouldn't do as well or isn't respecting what it's been for years is self important imo. Along comes Burton/Miller/Moore even Azzarella and offers up something new to the mythology and lo and behold the mythology now has two different types of fans and is simply larger for it. F4 doesn't have to be just one thing and for one person is my point. As usual it takes hindsight for this point to be proven(again and again). This is what keeps comic books alive and well in my experience, a diverse and evolving and always relevant mythology for new and old fans to pull from.

It's happening right now with bond in the modern spy landscape.

Hate to break it to you, but comics on printed paper may sadly be a dying medium. Sales have been WAY down on every comic, from every company compared to the past.... and if you honestly think marvel canceled the fantastic four because of low sales. . You will likely believe just about anything
 
Yet he didn't have the greatest time making it. He said he will be moving to smaller more creative projects before taking on another franchise. Which is essentially what Trank, and Whedon have said earlier.

And? Lol thats absolutely irrelevant to what i was discussing. He will likely have a great career ... unlike trank
 
I never even bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm. I'm fine with him. Great actor. Move on already. But what irks me is that the defenders of this film always bring up MBJ playing Johnny Storm and then imply that the people unhappy with the direction of this film are a bunch of racists. Even the director of the stinking film called people racists on Twitter. It's pathetic. I wonder if critics will be afraid to give an honest review of the film because they don't want to be labelled racist.

Probably. Its what irks me too.. you know if this film fails they will blame it on "people not being ready for equality on film" and thats bull. It wouldnt shock me if they use that to get people in theaters as well....
 
And? Lol thats absolutely irrelevant to what i was discussing. He will likely have a great career ... unlike trank
How do you know that? For all you know next year he will go and direct a movie that gets Oscar nominated or another hit. His career is definitely not over like people believe just because of Fantastic Four. Wait and see how the movie is received and then performs.
 
Wow so now that is your excuse if this movie gets positive reviews?

That critics are afraid to be labeled racists?

No excuses. Just an honest question. :whatever:

I think it's already been established that this film could be considered good by one standard but be a terrible FF film.
 
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