Fant4stic Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 31

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There are people in the WORLD who are racist. Some of those people are detractors of the film are and have expressed those views. Trank and MBJ aren't making up the hate they've received for the casting. I don't see why fans take it so personal like they are talking about them specifically.

Oh not this again.. yes their are racist people in the world... but 90% + of people complaining about the race change are not racist... and miss-labeled as such by people who are just as bad and geralize every one against the change. The director and cast arnt going to comment on a very small minority who effect nothing. They're clearly generalizing and labeling everyone racist
 
Maybe they take it personally, because everyone who says they are against the MBJ casting are immediately called racists. It doesn't matter that only some of the people against the casting are racists.....everyone gets called it.

:up: Thank you.
 
No excuses. Just an honest question. :whatever:

I think it's already been established that this film could be considered good by one standard but be a terrible FF film.

Cool.

But I think critics will avoid the subject of race altogether.

They will just rip apart other things if the movie doesn't work well.

Critics are picky as hell.
 
Maybe they take it personally, because everyone who says they are against the MBJ casting are immediately called racists. It doesn't matter that only some of the people against the casting are racists.....everyone gets called it.

I've never seen anyone say such a thing like "Everyone who doesn't like MBJ as Johnny Storm is racist". However I haven't read everything, so maybe you've seen someone say that.

Oh not this again.. yes their are racist people in the world... but 90% + of people complaining about the race change are not racist... and miss-labeled as such by people who are just as bad and geralize every one against the change. The director and cast arnt going to comment on a very small minority who effect nothing. They're clearly generalizing and labeling everyone racist

I don't think the cast and director are generalizing anyone. If they were words like racist wouldn't be thrown around. The depicts a certain person that can be any race, or sex but has specific mind state.
 
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Hate to break it to you, but comics on printed paper may sadly be a dying medium. Sales have been WAY down on every comic, from every company compared to the past.... and if you honestly think marvel canceled the fantastic four because of low sales. . You will likely believe just about anything

I don't believe that, I also don't believe they would have cancelled their highest selling title either.

Sales have been way down and I assume the industry is on the brink of collapse yet that doesn't explain why the book was doing poorly and others are doing better than ever(especially stuff like TWD). Point being, maybe not everyone is into it and it's not in it's perfect form. GA and comic fans alike.
 
I've never seen anyone say such a thing like "Everyone who doesn't like MBJ as Johnny Storm is racist". However I haven't read everything, so maybe you've seen someone say that.

I don't think the cast and director are generalizing anyone. If they were words like racist wouldn't be thrown around. The depicts a certain person that can be any race, or sex but has specific mind state.

Um, you can throw words like racist around in a very general way. Any criticism of that sort can be fallaciously generalized.
 
I don't believe that, I also don't believe they would have cancelled their highest selling title either.

Sales have been way down and I assume the industry is on the brink of collapse yet that doesn't explain why the book was doing poorly and others are doing better than ever(especially stuff like TWD). Point being, maybe not everyone is into it and it's not in it's perfect form. GA and comic fans alike.

The thing is, there were several comics doing worse that stayed on. I also think the past fox films damaged the brand a smidge for future generations. Once marvel gets the rights back, they could easily change that imo... just takes 1 great movie and one that stays true to the source materials look and spirit
 
I've never seen anyone say such a thing like "Everyone who doesn't like MBJ as Johnny Storm is racist". However I haven't read everything, so maybe you've seen someone say that.



I don't think the cast and director are generalizing anyone. If they were words like racist wouldn't be thrown around. The depicts a certain person that can be any race, or sex but has specific mind state.

It's an odd thing at this moment that bringing up anyone that had any issues with B jordan in this role, means you are lumping them in with the racism them.
I mean not to make any assertions because I'm sure there were about 30 reasons why people didn't like his casting but still. At this point, I have to assume everyone here endorsed the casting.

In the realm of generalizing, it's a shame that when the cast and director do confront the actual racism, people who seemingly weren't take it as a personal attack on their character. Surely people can see what a mess this is. Maybe B. Jordan should have issued names in his address.
 
Im not happy with anyone in their roles in this film... but im also not a fan of race changing for the sake of change either... as a gay man id actually be insulted if they made a straight character gay on film just to make a diverse cast... especially when they should be pushing that notion and effort into bringing many of the gay heroes in comics to film. Have faith in them, dont force it and throw me scraps...
 
In the realm of generalizing, it's a shame that when the cast and director do confront the actual racism, people who seemingly weren't take it as a personal attack on their character. Surely people can see what a mess this is. Maybe B. Jordan should have issued names in his address.

I don't take it as an attack on my character. I take it as desperate. A few internet trolls make a big deal out of Michael B. Jordan being black and suddenly its like he's leading a charge against racism even though he's hardly the first black actor to play a superhero.

Most filmmaker's and cast's don't b**** incessantly over the colossally stupid things internet trolls say. They ignore it and stay classy. But here we have Trank who seems to have been unable to take the criticism (in his own words) and therefore wants to do a more "low-key" film project, and MBJ who is going on and on about trolls and just encouraging them to troll harder.

You see this kind of trolling *****ebaggery for many films these days, this one seems the only one in which the filmmakers have taken it personally.
 
The thing is, there were several comics doing worse that stayed on. I also think the past fox films damaged the brand a smidge for future generations. Once marvel gets the rights back, they could easily change that imo... just takes 1 great movie and one that stays true to the source materials look and spirit

Unfortunately you are missing my point and focusing too much on why the book got cancelled.
I'm talking about the F4 brand, the one marvel comics was producing, simply not being a top seller period. How could that be if marvel is producing a non Trank like story but rather the 'marvel' one? You seem to be under the impression that if Fox produced this same true to source thing it would win over everyone yet for some reason that doesn't apply in the comic books? Point being, maybe it takes more than simply being true to source for people to care about the material.

I'm going to go ahead and ignore the part where you blamed fox instead of the people producing the actual book. At a certain point it's all just too selective.
 
I've never seen anyone say such a thing like "Everyone who doesn't like MBJ as Johnny Storm is racist". However I haven't read everything, so maybe you've seen someone say that.

I don't think the cast and director are generalizing anyone. If they were words like racist wouldn't be thrown around. The depicts a certain person that can be any race, or sex but has specific mind state.

No, no one has said the specific quote you have proposed...that doesn't mean that what C. Lee stated is not true.

I simply questioned the choice of actor early on in the casting process and was deemed a racist, immediately, as were most who said they didn't feel like a race change was needed, they were also deemed racist.

Even specific posts from this forum were used as examples of racism, when in fact the people that wrote those posts were not racists, they were simply fans that were not happy with the change.

I can pretty much say that the vast majority of those that were not happy with this particular change have not been happy with many of the other changes as well..........YET, they were deemed racists.

Which as far as I'm concerned was the most disrespectful, and disgusting viewpoint to take on these people and their desire to see on screen what they have seen and read for decades.

It is a subject that I detest talking about because the word was used in such a general and uneducated way it was tough to read through.

And for the cast or director to bring up THAT as a specific example of racism and get up on their high horse, rather than take the high road....is very telling.

In my opinion, they should be standing BY WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS A WORTHWHILE FILM TO SEE, AND A PROJECT THEY WERE PROUD TO BE A PART OF....not picking out a small minority of people to whine about.
 
I don't take it as an attack on my character. I take it as desperate. A few internet trolls make a big deal out of Michael B. Jordan being black and suddenly its like he's leading a charge against racism even though he's hardly the first black actor to play a superhero.

Most filmmaker's and cast's don't b**** incessantly over the colossally stupid things internet trolls say. They ignore it and stay classy. But here we have Trank who seems to have been unable to take the criticism (in his own words) and therefore wants to do a more "low-key" film project, and MBJ who is going on and on about trolls and just encouraging them to troll harder.

You see this kind of trolling *****ebaggery for many films these days, this one seems the only one in which the filmmakers have taken it personally.

Yeah, honestly they're behaving like the same people who have even been on here in the begining... who labled anyone who didnt like race change, as racist. And thats simply untrue. You cant be racist if you dont want any characters race changed... only if you exclusively care about race change when its a white character... then yeah.. you're probably racist.

I dont support white washing, i think its crazy. But i also dont support changing the race or gender of well known characters just to make a statement either
 
Unfortunately you are missing my point and focusing too much on why the book got cancelled.
I'm talking about the F4 brand, the one marvel comics was producing, simply not being a top seller period. How could that be if marvel is producing a non Trank like story but rather the 'marvel' one? You seem to be under the impression that if Fox produced this same true to source thing it would win over everyone yet for some reason that doesn't apply in the comic books? Point being, maybe it takes more than simply being true to source for people to care about the material.

I'm going to go ahead and ignore the part where you blamed fox instead of the people producing the actual book. At a certain point it's all just too selective.

You do realize the comics do better when the movies and cartoons and toys sell better and do netter too right? Rotss and fox owning the film righfs caused the F4 decline.. ignore me all you want. But its a factor.. because of fox's films that were not favorable their isnt a great buzz for this one, the rotss toys also did not sell well, then a terrible fan 4 anime cartoon came and bombed... this all effects the sales of comics... because kids tipically wNt to read more. Hell, the 90s fox spider-man is what got me into comics... thats how people get into comic buying

The last time the F4 showed up in a cartoon i believe was Avengers: Earth's mightiest heroes...
 
No, no one has said the specific quote you have proposed...that doesn't mean that what C. Lee stated is not true.

I simply questioned the choice of actor early on in the casting process and was deemed a racist, immediately, as were most who said they didn't feel like a race change was needed, they were also deemed racist.

Even specific posts from this forum were used as examples of racism, when in fact the people that wrote those posts were not racists, they were simply fans that were not happy with the change.

I can pretty much say that the vast majority of those that were not happy with this particular change have not been happy with many of the other changes as well..........YET, they were deemed racists.

Which as far as I'm concerned was the most disrespectful, and disgusting viewpoint to take on these people and their desire to see on screen what they have seen and read for decades.

It is a subject that I detest talking about because the word was used in such a general and uneducated way it was tough to read through.

And for the cast or director to bring up THAT as a specific example of racism and get up on their high horse, rather than take the high road....is very telling.

In my opinion, they should be standing BY WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS A WORTHWHILE FILM TO SEE, AND A PROJECT THEY WERE PROUD TO BE A PART OF....not picking out a small minority of people to whine about.

BRAVO!!! very very well said
 
While I will defend the people on this board who I actually read, acting like we know exactly what MBJ has seen on this Twitter/social media as a minority of people is telling. Whedon quit Twitter over the amount of tweets coming at him in just a few days after AoU.

So it's very possible it isn't some small minority. He's the only one who has addressed it so I doubt Mara is getting "Sue should be black" comments thrown at her.
 
Honestly twitter is a sesspool of nasty people. But its also a poor showing of how many fall into a group. Keep in mind, twitter only allows so many characters so one also cant propperly express the full intent of their feelings either... so its also easy to mistake what people are saying as well. But it also doesnt mean you generalize right back
 
I don't take it as an attack on my character. I take it as desperate. A few internet trolls make a big deal out of Michael B. Jordan being black and suddenly its like he's leading a charge against racism even though he's hardly the first black actor to play a superhero.

Most filmmaker's and cast's don't b**** incessantly over the colossally stupid things internet trolls say. They ignore it and stay classy. But here we have Trank who seems to have been unable to take the criticism (in his own words) and therefore wants to do a more "low-key" film project, and MBJ who is going on and on about trolls and just encouraging them to troll harder.

You see this kind of trolling *****ebaggery for many films these days, this one seems the only one in which the filmmakers have taken it personally.
Actually you don't see 'this' kind for many films. The F4 'debacle' and this casting have gotten a massive amount of traction and you are suggesting now to me it's the actually filmmakers doing in their response?
So Will Smith got the same amount but Ayer and co did nothing so it became nothing sort of deal. Nick Fury, Perry White.....
Me seeing columns about the outrage due to casting isn't actually the internet's but Jordan's doing for saying something. I assume the only reason Batfleck got so much traction is due to him addressing it too?

Still, to address your main point, 'you see it all the time on the net but this is the one time they took it personally. Thus they are desperate. A few trolls..'
I for one see productions put the internet in it's place for it's idiotic behavior on every second dc project. Having to remind them about the last time they rallied against out of box choices/casting. It just so happens that this time when Fox did it, it wasn't just a matter of defending how tall Jackman is, but literally that Storm can be Black, because fans were very eloquent in stating all the reasons why this didn't work..
I remember when they made 'shredder' white. Fans rallied and none were called racists. It makes perfect sense that fanboys will be fanboys and hate change for the sake of hating change. You don't have to be racists in order to do what fanboys do, that being said, atleast in that scenario it was clear alot of arguments were about the cultural significance of the Japanese character and what not...his name even.

As for that other part, lots of filmmakers admit to not being able to take criticism, have fun telling cameron he's wrong on his set, Bay...the list goes on. A big deal is made of Trank saying as much for the same reason a big deal is made of him wiping his ass the wrong way. He's the one the internet has decided upon this time.
Bay and Whedon have both expressed the sentiment of wanting to do more low key stuff after a busy/hectic/executive heavy thing...wouldn't be surprised if Edgar Wright wants to as well, I digress.
 
You do realize the comics do better when the movies and cartoons and toys sell better and do netter too right? Rotss and fox owning the film righfs caused the F4 decline.. ignore me all you want. But its a factor.. because of fox's films that were not favorable their isnt a great buzz for this one, the rotss toys also did not sell well, then a terrible fan 4 anime cartoon came and bombed... this all effects the sales of comics... because kids tipically wNt to read more. Hell, the 90s fox spider-man is what got me into comics... thats how people get into comic buying

The last time the F4 showed up in a cartoon i believe was Avengers: Earth's mightiest heroes...

I'm curious if you think the F4 book would have been doing booming numbers if no fox movies were made at all.

I find it telling that even the cartoons didn't do well. I assume this is where you blame fox movies?

I get how something can be cross media boosted by a big movie(see gaurdians), but blaming something for not surviving because it doesn't get a cross media bumb is odd to me. Spiderman does gangbuster sales in comic book form, regardless of how lame sony's movies. If the books are good, they should still be able to find comic book fans.
 
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While I will defend the people on this board who I actually read, acting like we know exactly what MBJ has seen on this Twitter/social media as a minority of people is telling. Whedon quit Twitter over the amount of tweets coming at him in just a few days after AoU.

So it's very possible it isn't some small minority. He's the only one who has addressed it so I doubt Mara is getting "Sue should be black" comments thrown at her.

That was not the reason Whedon left twitter.
 
I can pretty much say that the vast majority of those that were not happy with this particular change have not been happy with many of the other changes as well..........YET, they were deemed racists.

Which as far as I'm concerned was the most disrespectful, and disgusting viewpoint to take on these people and their desire to see on screen what they have seen and read for decades.

It is a subject that I detest talking about because the word was used in such a general and uneducated way it was tough to read through.


The problem is that you don't have to be racist to make ignorant/offensive comments.

A sexist/offenisive comment doesn't just come from men who hate women. And in frustration very calm reasonable people will say hurtful things.
 
While CBMs should strive be visually faithful to the source material, the F4 is overwhelmingly white in the comics. I don't mind the race change so much because in the case of HT, he's more visually recognizable as the man on fire than as the blonde boy.

Also, minorities are under-represented in the genre. Heck they had to adapt Ultimate Nick Fury just to shoehorn some sideline color in the overwhelmingly white and male Avengers.
 
I'm curious if you think the F4 book would have been doing booming numbers if no fox movies were made at all.

I find it telling that even the cartoons didn't do well. I assume this is where you blame fox movies?

I get how something can be cross media boosted by a big movie(see gaurdians), but blaming something for not surviving because it doesn't get a cross media bumb is odd to me. Spiderman does gangbuster sales in comic book form, regardless of how lame sony's movies. If the books are good, they should still be able to find comic book fans.

It would have still declined without any media representation i dont blame fox souly for it.. but its certainly a factor

Also... no matter how lame sonys movie of spidey have been, they still performed financially and made more money then most of Fox's marvel properties.... infact, spider-man 3 and amazing 2.. though franchise killers... were still financially successful
 
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