Fant4stic Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 31

[Kane52630]

 

[C. Lee]

I've never seen anyone say such a thing like "Everyone who doesn't like MBJ as Johnny Storm is racist". However I haven't read everything, so maybe you've seen someone say that.

I'm sorry....I forgot for a moment I was posting on the Hype....where everything has to be perfectly precisely absolutely Supreme court perfect when posted.

Please let me try again -
You posted this - There are people in the WORLD who are racist. Some of those people are detractors of the film are and have expressed those views. Trank and MBJ aren't making up the hate they've received for the casting. I don't see why fans take it so personal like they are talking about them specifically.

And my reply should have been -
Maybe they take it personally, because when people like Trank and MBJ and many many of this movie's defenders make statements about how the people who are against the movie are just being RACIST....they do not preference the statement with SOME BUT NOT ALL. They (Trank and MBJ and many many of the movie's defenders) do not acknowledge that some if not many or most of the people who are against MBJ being cast in the role are saying that they are against his casting because it goes against the over 50 years of visual evidence of what he is supposed to look like. I would be as against the casting of Robert DeNiro in the role as MBJ. Robert may be white, but he looks nothing like the character has been shown for over 50 years. Ron Perlman is a great actor and a genre fan favorite....but even though he is white I would object to his playing Johnny....because he looks nothing like the part I have read and looked at for 50 years. I (and others) have repeatedly said this...but the response we get back most for saying that is - you are a racist. Now.....do you understand why so many people take it personally?

 

[TeeKay]

Thank you so much C.Lee. So much win your post!

 

[The Infernal]

I don't know why people keep trying to say that the Story films were accurate to the comics. They weren't. That was one of their biggest problems.

Maybe because it looks like this film will retread the same basic mistakes. Doom's origin being folded into the FF's rather than developing him separately and the character being anything like he is in the comics.

 

[Spiderine]

Wasn't Norman Osborn the villain in the Story films?

 

[Docker2.0]

Maybe they take it personally, because everyone who says they are against the MBJ casting are immediately called racists. It doesn't matter that only some of the people against the casting are racists.....everyone gets called it.

Agreed! I know tons of black people who are pissed about the casting........are they racist to? It seems like Fox is trying to make it look like they are all about diversity and making this film despite "racists" coming at them. It amazes me how they are so adamant against the detractors that they forgot to promote this thing. They seem to be showing the same photos and footage over and over again.

 

[Marvin]

Well, let's see. There's already been a racist troll backlash against Boyega in Star Wars, even though Billy Dee Williams was in the OT, and Samuel L Jackson in the PT. And a racist troll backlash against Perry White in MOS. There were complaints about Heimdall being black when Thor first came out.

So yeah, this is pretty par for the course. F4 is a debacle for many reasons, but it isn't unique in that its targeted by racist trolls. The only unique thing about it is that the filmmakers seem incapable of recognizing that their constant indignant responses only feed the trolls more.

And lastly, as Kelly said, being unhappy with the Michael Jordan casting doesn't make you racist.

It doesn't make you a racist, being unhappy with it for racist reasons does. You either agree with that or not. If you are unhappy with it for other non ignorant reasons to each his own..

I don't remember Boyega replacing a famous white character in a similar way to this. Contextually even the more stringent 'haters' can wrap their minds around the idea that it's troopers aren't white clones in this world. As for the other two, I'm not sure what your acronyms stand for but I can't imagine they were either of them in the B. Jordan scenario of replacing a titular white A-list character, thrice played by a white man on film and so forth.
As for Heimdall, I do actually recall some outrage, it may have gone lower below the radar due to the entire brands anonymity let alone that character's but I also do recall that actor stepping up and publicly calling detractors out on their ignorance. Something to be said for how relevant a role is.
Let's see Elba in the role of Bond and notice how public it all gets...vs heimdall if you catch my drift. And when him as bond get's crazy public, let's blame him for feeding it vs confront it.

As for Perry, perhaps if Larry landed the role of Clark...
I'd say this is hardly par and it's so far gone that instead of the filmmakers ignoring things as they do, you can only ignoring something trending for weeks for so long... I suppose they could wait and let the film do the talking, but that would be under normal circumstances where the loud chatter has to do with the actual movie(see joker) and not a greater issue.

But sure, if they just ignored it all from the jump, we'd probably never even have heard about it.

 

[Kelly]

It doesn't make you a racist, being unhappy with it for racist reasons does. You either agree with that or not. If you are unhappy with it for other non ignorant reasons to each his own..

I don't remember Boyega replacing a famous white character in a similar way to this. Contextually even the more stringent 'haters' can wrap their minds around the idea that it's troopers aren't white clones in this world. As for the other two, I'm not sure what your acronyms stand for but I can't imagine they were either of them in the B. Jordan scenario of replacing a titular white A-list character, thrice played by a white man on film and so forth.
As for Heimdall, I do actually recall some outrage, it may have gone lower below the radar due to the entire brands anonymity let alone that character's but I also do recall that actor stepping up and publicly calling detractors out on their ignorance. Something to be said for how relevant a role is.
Let's see Elba in the role of Bond and notice how public it all gets...vs heimdall if you catch my drift. And when him as bond get's crazy public, let's blame him for feeding it vs confront it.

As for Perry, perhaps if Larry landed the role of Clark...
I'd say this is hardly par and it's so far gone that instead of the filmmakers ignoring things as they do, you can only ignoring something trending for weeks for so long... I suppose they could wait and let the film do the talking, but that would be under normal circumstances where the loud chatter has to do with the actual movie(see joker) and not a greater issue.

But sure, if they just ignored it all from the jump, we'd probably never even have heard about it.

It trended not because of those that were unhappy with the casting, it trended because of those that saw a chance to raise the bigotry flag each and every time they had a chance. It was the same here, the argument continued because people felt the need to defend themselves when called a racist or bigot for no other reason than wanting to see a character they had seen for the past 50 years on the pages of their favorite comic book, look as close to that character as they remembered them all those 50 years.

The inability to see THAT, and the need to go back constantly to the extremely small minority who were spewing their racist rants on places like youtube, twitter and IMDB is just as bad as those calling people racists for no other reason than to take this opportunity to raise that flag and jump on the bandwagon once again to argue, and that is all it is....do discussion on race need to happen? you bet they do, but this is not that time or place, this is not the big media slap in the face of race relations moment that many want to make it out to be.

So, let's move on from this discussion, because honestly....we moved on from it MONTHS AGO.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

But...the F4 are all white. Which minority F4 comicbook character can be shoehorned to fill the gap for this movie? It makes sense for MBJ to play HT characterization wise. I think it's disingenuous to think that people would more okay if the race change happened to Reed, Ben or Sue.

But thats just it... hes only in this movie because trank wanted to work with him again... johnny and sue being different races effects their back story. Ben and Reed do not


As for a team being all white... well... its probably more believable a small team would all be the same race rather than a college catalogue depicting diversity. I mean... if you're going for realism

 

[spideyboy_1111]

You know what 616 inspired media adaptation did really well? Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Doom was the big bad, the Four and Silver Surfer were playable, Skrulls were in it, a 616 inspired Galactus was a major boss fight, and Uatu also was a big factor.

Don't pretend 616 FF doesn't do well to justify your support of a version that doesn't resemble anything longtime fans have wanted. It's bull.

Agrees. They were also pretty great in ultimate alliance 2.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Well, let's see. There's already been a racist troll backlash against Boyega in Star Wars, even though Billy Dee Williams was in the OT, and Samuel L Jackson in the PT. And a racist troll backlash against Perry White in MOS. There were complaints about Heimdall being black when Thor first came out.

So yeah, this is pretty par for the course. F4 is a debacle for many reasons, but it isn't unique in that its targeted by racist trolls. The only unique thing about it is that the filmmakers seem incapable of recognizing that their constant indignant responses only feed the trolls more.

And lastly, as Kelly said, being unhappy with the Michael Jordan casting doesn't make you racist.

The backlash overBoyega must be the minnescule thing ever... i usually hear about this stuff pretty quickly. This is the first ive heard of that. There isnt even a backlash ive seen about Mordo's casting in Doc Strange

 

[Marvin]

C. Lee
Your post falls into he same trap you accuse the 'hype' of making in that "not every statement has to be perfectly precisely absolutely Supreme court perfect when posted".
Calling out racism isn't the same as calling someone or everyone racist.
Sure they could have used the words 'some' but then again, is that not implied or do they need to spell it out?
They put words in your mouth you put words in theirs.

As for Robert Deniro and Perman, I've never seen this character depicted in spirit or body as a 65 or 73 year old man. Kinda turns the dynamic on it's head no?
Especially the whole hot head aspect that people would argue is a major part of the core. Making him a girl...a dog...a dragon even, I'd understand. But a young male actor sexy actor with alot of charisma? This same scenario being a non issue in the grande scheme is why I'd argue Fury worked as well as it did. Because what actually makes the character is still very much present. I personally see skin tone changes as superficial in most cases, then again I've seen alot of theater where this is abundant and can only speak for myself.

Deniro as Steve Rogers would be interesting however. Though I can't imagine people would appreciate that change to the 50 year image. No matter how interesting it could be contextually.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The only reason I would want to see Johnny as a white guy is because he's what I'm used to. And comics are a visual medium so it makes sense why others would feel the same. Not seeing the characters the way they look on the page - well it takes you out of it a little bit. But in the end - I understand it's the 21st century - and if MBJ can capture the spirit of the character, then it's not that big a deal to me. I actually find him the most appealing casting choice of the Four so go figure.

However, why did they have to go the adoption route? That irks me. If they absolutely had to have a lilly white Sue (because interracial relationships aren't a thing?) why not at the very least make Johnny/Sue share at least one parent? Otherwise there's not a single blood relation on the team. They are the only two with energy based powers and their blood tie always helped kind of explain that. Again this is Trank doing whatever he feels like with the material. I'm not a fan of these kind of sweeping changes to the source. This goes way beyond just picking the "right actor for the part".

Yeah, people complain over minute costuming details and hair styles.. people shouldnt be attacked for not getting what they visually want when it comes to looks

 

[Marvin]

It trended not because of those that were unhappy with the casting, it trended because of those that saw a chance to raise the bigotry flag each and every time they had a chance. It was the same here, the argument continued because people felt the need to defend themselves when called a racist or bigot for no other reason than wanting to see a character they had seen for the past 50 years on the pages of their favorite comic book, look as close to that character as they remembered them all those 50 years.

The inability to see THAT, and the need to go back constantly to the extremely small minority who were spewing their racist rants on places like youtube, twitter and IMDB is just as bad as those calling people racists for no other reason than to take this opportunity to raise that flag and jump on the bandwagon once again to argue, and that is all it is....do discussion on race need to happen? you bet they do, but this is not that time or place, this is not the big media slap in the face of race relations moment that many want to make it out to be.

So, let's move on from this discussion, because honestly....we moved on from it MONTHS AGO.

You say we've moved on yet I'm only responding to posts I've seen brought up. As for the reason why it trended. I'm not sure anyone has the insight to accurately explain such things, especially when invested. Like I said, a high profile role like Bond having it's race bent would no doubt trend.

Consider me moving on.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Marvel Ultimate Alliance isn't solely F4 though. Do you have statistical data that the success of this game is mainly due to the "correct" adaptation of F4 characters and not because of the X-Men, Avengers, etc? Was HT portrayed as a blue-eyed blond boy in this even?

The story was extremely heavily influenced by the F4 mythos... so much so that it would have been a competely different story without it... Atlantis, Latveria, Skrulls, Galactus, Dr. DOOM, frightful four, secret wars....

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't care if your rich, poor,female.a minority, alien or whatever, people first of all should be treated with respect.The cast and crew are actually human beings and being called hateful words actually stings. Just because there a coward who can only say it behind a computer screen doesn't make it easier. At least if they did it to his face he could slap the **** out of them. Which I would of loved to see. So I don't blame them for talking about it. Like I said before MBJ was kind cause I'd posted names for the world to see. So they can have that feeling of having hate put on them by people on their computer.

... calm yourself.. no one is defending racism... we are however saying... be the bigger people and be mature and ignore idiots.. dont snap at the entire fanbase and generalise and out them down in the process

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Yeah and you do the same to bring it down. Why does it always come back to saying something negative towards people who are supporting this movie with you?

Maybe because the things we dont like... havent changed. More info of the mess this film is constantly gets new supporting claims added to it... and the poor marketing hasnt showed us much of anything new to change our opinions even the slightest? Theres nothing for us to bend over backward about...

 

[Kelly]

You say we've moved on yet I'm only responding to posts I've seen brought up. As for the reason why it trended. I'm not sure anyone has the insight to accurately explain such things, especially when invested. Like I said, a high profile role like Bond having it's race bent would no doubt trend.

Consider me moving on.

Yes, it comes up every once in awhile. This time by the director and cast...

And of course when that happens, it once again blows up here. That will happen, but really its at this point, beating a dead horse. The director and cast are just a little behind on what went on months ago.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It trended not because of those that were unhappy with the casting, it trended because of those that saw a chance to raise the bigotry flag each and every time they had a chance. It was the same here, the argument continued because people felt the need to defend themselves when called a racist or bigot for no other reason than wanting to see a character they had seen for the past 50 years on the pages of their favorite comic book, look as close to that character as they remembered them all those 50 years.

The inability to see THAT, and the need to go back constantly to the extremely small minority who were spewing their racist rants on places like youtube, twitter and IMDB is just as bad as those calling people racists for no other reason than to take this opportunity to raise that flag and jump on the bandwagon once again to argue, and that is all it is....do discussion on race need to happen? you bet they do, but this is not that time or place, this is not the big media slap in the face of race relations moment that many want to make it out to be.

So, let's move on from this discussion, because honestly....we moved on from it MONTHS AGO.

Exactly! Kelly it reminds me of the people going crazy about how they cant find toys of black widow for thier little kids.. and how marvel isnt making them.. and thus mysoginistic.. people were flipping out... and then i , a toy collector and one who follows this stuff.. posted about 15 to 20 black widow products that are movie based since she first appeared in Ironman 2.. they shut up for a moment... but then complained about how hard they were to get in stores... and then i promptly gave them a link to ebay and amazon for everyone... and simply said... the internet is your friend....

People love to generalize, feed into hysteria and forget about reason via generalizing

 

[Sleiek]

Sure they could have used the words 'some' but then again, is that not implied or do they need to spell it out?
They put words in your mouth you put words in theirs.

This is actually true. When statements made are not specific enough, we tend to put words in their mouth to support our case and vice versa. I read the whole MBJ post and I never got the impression that he was calling every detractor a racist (actually he only mentioned troll) just because I don't believe he does. And people believing the opposite will get a different impression. No one knows who is right because MBJ didn't link his statement about trolls with people who are bothered about the race change..

I swear I just read it again to confirm my feelings about the article. The only part where he seems to go on the offensive is when he says "To the trolls on the internet, -----", well guess what there are trolls on the internet and I don't believe for one second he meant the "long time fans" who are not happy with the race change just because it is not true to the comics, i.e. most of you guys.

Also to people who think I am a blind follower of MBJ, well, I am NOT a fan of him and as I have mentioned earlier he's good but he's nothing special from what I have seen so far..

And Kane, as usual, badass GIFs

 

[Kelly]

This is actually true. When statements made are not specific enough, we tend to put words in their mouth to support our case and vice versa. I read the whole MBJ post and I never got the impression that he was calling every detractor a racist (actually he only mentioned troll) just because I don't believe he does. And people believing the opposite will get a different impression. No one knows who is right because MBJ didn't link his statement about trolls with people who are bothered about the race change..

I swear I just read it again to confirm my feelings about the article. The only part where he seems to go on the offensive is when he says "To the trolls on the internet, -----", well guess what there are trolls on the internet and I don't believe for one second he meant the "long time fans" who are not happy with the race change just because it is not true to the comics, i.e. most of you guys.

Also to people who think I am a blind follower of MBJ, well, I am NOT a fan of him and as I have mentioned earlier he's good but he's nothing special from what I have seen so far..

If you are going to take the time to make a statement like that...then take the time to explain yourself. If you are going to call out that small minority who are trolls, then make it clear that you actually know what the hell you are talking about and can give some examples, and make sure that people know that YOU KNOW the difference.

Look he has every right to his opinion...and honestly I pretty much read the statement in much the same light as you did...but to think that you can make a statement like that and not stir up the fire that for most was already out....is either naive, stupid (as in, I know better but here it goes) or ignorant of how the internet works.

 

[Sleiek]

If you are going to take the time to make a statement like that...then take the time to explain yourself. If you are going to call out that small minority who are trolls, then make it clear that you actually know what the hell you are talking about and can give some examples, and make sure that people know that YOU KNOW the difference.

I am surprised to see someone ask me who I think are trolls on the internet. There are not easy to find. They are on Youtube, Twitter constantly bashing and repeating the same thing over and over without giving a logical explanation as to why they don't like it. And trying to argue with them gets nowhere just because they don't want to listen to you. These are trolls.

I thought it would be obvious who trolls are and seeing as how you are getting so defensive even after I clearly state that people here are not on the list of trolls just to differentiate, I really don't know what else to say.

Maybe I just spend more time on the internet with more people than the rest of you.

Look he has every right to his opinion...and honestly I pretty much read the statement in much the same light as you did...but to think that you can make a statement like that and not stir up the fire that for most was already out....is either naive, stupid (as in, I know better but here it goes) or ignorant of how the internet works.

Wow, it is not my wish to stir up any trouble. It is an observation and I am not pointing fingers like you seem to suggest I am.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

This is actually true. When statements made are not specific enough, we tend to put words in their mouth to support our case and vice versa. I read the whole MBJ post and I never got the impression that he was calling every detractor a racist (actually he only mentioned troll) just because I don't believe he does. And people believing the opposite will get a different impression. No one knows who is right because MBJ didn't link his statement about trolls with people who are bothered about the race change..

I swear I just read it again to confirm my feelings about the article. The only part where he seems to go on the offensive is when he says "To the trolls on the internet, -----", well guess what there are trolls on the internet and I don't believe for one second he meant the "long time fans" who are not happy with the race change just because it is not true to the comics, i.e. most of you guys.

Also to people who think I am a blind follower of MBJ, well, I am NOT a fan of him and as I have mentioned earlier he's good but he's nothing special from what I have seen so far..

Heres the thing. YOU havent been a part of this fiasco of a movie discussion like the rest of us had... and we all went through it and can pretty easily spot when someone is making a blanket statement on racism... it also doesnt help when he and trank have blatantly disrespected the fanbase with sleeping dog photos and remarks like "you'll see it anyway". Not only that... but anytime the "controversy" over his casting has ever come up to him... its alwYs "racist this" "racist that", etc.... no one is going to go to that length of defense over a very very tiny minority... who wont effect anything. But what has happened countless times, is the generalization of "if you dont like him in the roll because he's black, then your racist". And thats almost positively whats happening. Because no one is able to have a convo with mbj on the subject.. unlike on here, we can actually explain.

Look, most celebs who are in a high profile beloved franchise usually go out of their way to welcome the fans and they typically want to reassure them that the film will be great... mbj has done none of that... and infact... the entire cast has avoided the comic fans like the plague

 

[Sleiek]

Let's get one thing straight. Michael B Jordan is at a very early stage of his career. He still has a long way to go before understanding what not to do to stir up a controversy, whether he intended to call all fans racists is another matter.

Heres the thing. YOU havent been a part of this fiasco of a movie discussion like the rest of us had... and we all went through it and can pretty easily spot when someone is making a blanket statement on racism... it also doesnt help when he and trank have blatantly disrespected the fanbase with sleeping dog photos and remarks like "you'll see it anyway". Not only that... but anytime the "controversy" over his casting has ever come up to him... its alwYs "racist this" "racist that", etc.... no one is going to go to that length of defense over a very very tiny minority... who wont effect anything. But what has happened countless times, is the generalization of "if you dont like him in the roll because he's black, then your racist". And thats almost positively whats happening. Because no one is able to have a convo with mbj on the subject.. unlike on here, we can actually explain.

Look, most celebs who are in a high profile beloved franchise usually go out of their way to welcome the fans and they typically want to reassure them that the film will be great... mbj has done none of that... and infact... the entire cast has avoided the comic fans like the plague

I am sorry dude, but I know this. I know that they are avoiding the promotion of this film, because believe it or not I have also been following this film for a while. I am not saying they are doing a fine job promoting this film. Even I am curious as to not finding any videos of them doing interviews for the film. But here I am just talking about the article MBJ posted and how I didn't find it to a particularly offensive attempt at all the fans. I am just talking about the article, it is the only one where he talks about race change issue.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Let's get one thing straight. Michael B Jordan is at a very early stage of his career. He still has a long way to go before understanding what not to do to stir up a controversy, whether he intended to call all fans racists is another matter.

Honestly... their's no valid excuse for his behavior, and he's already lost fans because of it.