Fant4stic Fantastic Four Box Office Prediction Thread - Part 5

[chamber-music]

Sorry but um...no.

None of us wanted a page-for-page cinematic translation of this or any other comic. We don't want to see a chauvinist-era 1960s Sue Storm getting smacked around by Reed Richards. By the same token, we also don't want to see a Doctor Doom with goat hooves either.

We want balance. Such a thing is possible, as evidenced by what's happening in the MCU and even the Sony Spider-Man films. It's perfectly feasible to capture the SPIRIT of these characters AND update them on film.

This is a strictly FOX studio malady. They are idiots, plain and simple. It's not that they CAN'T adapt these heroes accurately--the truth is they don't WANT to. And the fans, critics and GA collectively kicked their asses for such negligence this time.

preach

 

[Dark Raven]

I can't believe people are still using the race card on this movie failing. MBJ was quite possibly the best casting of the movie and fit his role perfectly. But let's ignore the other 99 things wrong with the film.

Well no. He didn't fit the role perfectly. He wasn't really like Johnny Storm at all and really quite subdued and bland. Whether he might have displayed that required personality in other films or in real life is another matter. He wasn't Torch like in this film. And if you say that this was just the way that Trank directed him or Kinberg wrote him, well then you can say that about anyone. If Johnny Storm was written as a weedy, effeminate cross dresser who gets scared at the sight of mice and MBJ played him that way, then anyone can argue that he played that role perfectly. But is it Johnny Storm as we know him at all?

No, no, no, no, no! It's clear you haven't been paying any attention over the past year and a half. Most of us have been talking about the problems with this film based on real information that was indicating just how bad this film was.

Race became a bigger issue than it really was because people who wanted to distract from the real problems used that as a smoke screen and distraction and they baited people into arguments.

We saw that the characters were completely off for quite some time. We saw that the story was ridiculous and cliche' from the first leak that indicated the FF would be used as weapons for the government. We saw when they were talking about 'body horror' and this being a 'coming of age story' that there were serious problems and no real story. We saw that the tone and visual appearance of this film was NOTHING like FF from the start. We saw that Doom was terrible from the first leaked photographs. and descriptions of his character.

This was a terrible, terrible film from the start - including the awful first script. Fox never put any effort into it and that was clear. Fox never had any concept of who the FF were, and that was clear.

You can't just change the facts that everybody here has been talking about for the past year and a half and expect people who have actually been paying attention to think there's any truth in what you're claiming.

Before the movie came out, people wanted to defend it in all kinds of ways. Now that it's out, those same people want to retcon what happened or what objectors of the movie complained about it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

None of us really knew how the movie would turn out before it was released.

Before the movie came out, people wanted to defend it in all kinds of ways. Now that it's out, those same people want to retcon what happened or what objectors of the movie complained about it.

Here's just one quick example of what we knew ahead of time. I posted this on December 11, 2014:

"We know it will be an origin story. We know it will be a 'coming of age story'. We know that a primary conflict will be the characters dealing with their powers. We know that there will be a young Reed and Young Ben and Reed's mother as well as teachers, a science fair, Dr. Franklin Storm, Harvey Elder etc. We know there will be a 'Baxter Institute'. We know there will be an area 57. Simon Kinberg has attached 'Victor' to the 'incident' and implied he gets powers as well. We know it will share elements with UFF.

From all this, we can reasonably infer that the film will open as UFF did with Reed and Ben as kids and the first act will focus on the introduction of characters, the Baxter Institute and the build-up to the mission. The first act will likely end with the accident.

The second act will focus on them discovering and dealing with their powers, and the third act will be a battle with Doom who will have organic powers.

Which is basically the same story as the panned first film, and similar to the story of the awful Corman film.

Seriously, do we need to know any more than that to conclude Fox has their head completely up their butt?"

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=30279469&postcount=732


And that's just one quick example. Anybody who was paying attention saw this slow-motion train-wreck coming from a mile away.

 

[Docker2.0]

Well no. He didn't fit the role perfectly. He wasn't really like Johnny Storm at all and really quite subdued and bland. Whether he might have displayed that required personality in other films or in real life is another matter. He wasn't Torch like in this film. And if you say that this was just the way that Trank directed him or Kinberg wrote him, well then you can say that about anyone. If Johnny Storm was written as a weedy, effeminate cross dresser who gets scared at the sight of mice and MBJ played him that way, then anyone can argue that he played that role perfectly. But is it Johnny Storm as we know him at all?

Dang it DR!! That's what I meant. It's the script and writing that messed it up.

 

[TeeKay]

Its funny because MBJ more or less basically played Johnny Storm is Chronicle. In FFINO, he was nothing like the character.

 

[Dark Raven]

I don't see why Trank couldn't have just told MBJ to do exactly what he did in Chronicle and just direct him the same way? At least he would've gotten a better performance out of him. After all, Trank was just wanting to remake Chronicle. But instead he decided, even in this regard, to reinvent the wheel.

What's the point of hiring MBJ if he's not even going to do what he did before in a previous film where it would then perhaps be more justified as to why he was cast. As such, it just makes it as if he just threw MBJ a bone and cast him simply out of friendship or obligation, and not because he thought he would be good for the role at all or that he would give a similar performance. Trank could just as easily have cast his mailman in the role and gotten the same performance that we had in FFINO.

 

[starscream22]

Welp. I'll say it then: I had a major problem with them recasting Johnny as a black character. Like...major.

Call me racist all you want (I'm a man of color, but whatevs) but Trank only did that to appease an actor--it wasn't done for creative license. From what I've heard, it was a stupid move that did absolutely NOTHING to advance the storyline or enhance Johnny or Susan's character development.

+1

I hated MJB as Johnny as well. It was the first all out indication that this rights grab would be crap and since it did turn out to be crap why should anyone be forced to hold their tongue at this point?

No one could use the "You're a racist" since me and MBJ are almost the same complexion. It's a shame that everyone else had to dance around this predicament in order to express their disapproval of this choice. I'm here to tell you that most black people couldn't care less.

Chris Evans was clearly the best Human Torch to date and MBJ's casting hasn't changed that at all!

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

LOL at the claims that no one knew how this film would turn out.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

LOL at the claims that no one knew how this film would turn out.

Even Matt Murdock could see it.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Even Matt Murdock could see it.

 

[Tymminator]

Remember there was always someone there who dispite when a bad sign came up, always made a lame excuse?

I remember when the embargo was announced and that's a definate bad sign, yet you had those who dismissed it meant anything.

 

[Docker2.0]

Even Matt Murdock could see it.

Oh! Matt Murdock could see it but Stevie Wonder couldn't?! Geez man! You really are racist!

 

[InCali]

Remember there was always someone there who dispite when a bad sign came up, always made a lame excuse?

I remember when the embargo was announced and that's a definate bad sign, yet you had those who dismissed it meant anything.

That was a definite "uh oh" moment for me. I actually wanted it to be good. I had my fears before that this was going to be a disaster (but I had no idea it would be THIS big of a disaster), but the embargo got my radar on a swivel and when the reviews finally did start to trickle in, I decided to be a no show at the last minute.

 

[TalismanRing]

I don't see why Trank couldn't have just told MBJ to do exactly what he did in Chronicle and just direct him the same way? At least he would've gotten a better performance out of him. After all, Trank was just wanting to remake Chronicle. But instead he decided, even in this regard, to reinvent the wheel.

What's the point of hiring MBJ if he's not even going to do what he did before in a previous film where it would then perhaps be more justified as to why he was cast. As such, it just makes it as if he just threw MBJ a bone and cast him simply out of friendship or obligation, and not because he thought he would be good for the role at all or that he would give a similar performance. Trank could just as easily have cast his mailman in the role and gotten the same performance that we had in FFINO.

Trank didn't need to try and get a better performance out of MBJ but rather to leave him alone and let him act, just like he should have allowed the rest of the cast to act instead as rumored directing their every breath and blink into flat unemotional performances so they'd be more "realistic". I believe the rumors because that's an experienced talented young cast and there's no other reason even if the script sucked why they'd all be so lifeless.

He also wasn't throwing MBJ a bone or doing him a favor. Fox had an option on on MBJ for another movie because of Chronicle. Fox wanted him and Trank wanted him and whether MBJ wanted to do the movie didn't matter. Though he may have had some choice in Fox projects since he was also wanted for Independence Day. He had plenty of other offers for movies at the same time including Compton and reportedly Star Wars. Just like Emily Blunt had a contract option with Fox so she was forced to do Gulliver's Travels and couldn't be Black Widow.

 

[X-Maniac]

No, no, no, no, no! It's clear you haven't been paying any attention over the past year and a half. Most of us have been talking about the problems with this film based on real information that was indicating just how bad this film was.

Race became a bigger issue than it really was because people who wanted to distract from the real problems used that as a smoke screen and distraction and they baited people into arguments.

We saw that the characters were completely off for quite some time. We saw that the story was ridiculous and cliche' from the first leak that indicated the FF would be used as weapons for the government. We saw when they were talking about 'body horror' and this being a 'coming of age story' that there were serious problems and no real story. We saw that the tone and visual appearance of this film was NOTHING like FF from the start. We saw that Doom was terrible from the first leaked photographs. and descriptions of his character.

This was a terrible, terrible film from the start - including the awful first script. Fox never put any effort into it and that was clear. Fox never had any concept of who the FF were, and that was clear.

You can't just change the facts that everybody here has been talking about for the past year and a half and expect people who have actually been paying attention to think there's any truth in what you're claiming.

Every time I saw an article on this film pop up in my Facebook feed, the comments were always about the black Torch. That is exactly what I saw. Every. Single. Time.

If there were other worries about the movie, they were drowned out by the cries over casting. A few times I saw people mention casting in general, a few times I saw the Domashev blogger thing brought up.

That's what I saw. So stop trying to tell me what I saw and didn't see. I know what I saw and read.

I'm not defending the film in any way, and I definitely didn't come in this section of the Hype much during the production period, I'm telling you what i saw on Facebook in my own feed. I think I know what I saw in my own Facebook feed, so stop trying to claim you know better.

The main thing i saw was complaining over black Torch. But it was far from the worst problem with the movie. The main problem is in how the film was written. That's proved by the original script which, although still far from perfect, is much better than what we got.

 

[X-Maniac]

What about the numerous rumors of behind the scenes issues? That raised a red flag to a lot of people, save for the ones adamantly arguing that said problems were all fabricated. Funny how most of those people have disappeared from this section.

Well, firstly, all those rumours did sound bad if taken on face value and taken as 100 per cent gospel truth. But behind-the-scenes issues can be fabricated or exaggerated. On places like this (SHH, CBM and other sites), it's such a hotbed of intense overreaction that it's hard to put any trust in anything. Things become 'epic' or 'disaster' very easily, and there's very little sense of perspective.

Especially after my mother died, I realised much of the internet (including these forums and social media) is just worthless babble that has no significance in the real world. My father doesn't even go on the internet, they don't even have an internet connection in their house, and he's managed a perfectly happy and balanced life without it, focusing on the things that really matter (such as family, love, happiness, health, financial stability, a sense of achievement). Not one element of my parents' full and stable life had anything to do with being on the internet, lol... surprise surprise.

And also, there are behind-the-scenes changes on almost every movie. Things get changed, reworked, cancelled, added. Reshoots take place, etc. I don't judge things on rumours. I like facts. If I don't have them, I have a healthy sense of caution.

This is absolute hog-wash. If you honestly believe this, then you have not been paying attention, but I don't think you honestly believe this.
The majority of the arguments against this movie all stem from the fact that this was a cheap, half-baked rights grab from the beginning.

As I already said, my Facebook feed had many articles on the film, all of which had comments dominated by the black Torch. It was exhausting to read it over and over. Although Trank indulged in nepotism, and casting a black Torch is definitely a point of debate, that casting was not at the root of the film's poor reviews and poor performance. That's down to writing, as the original script proved. Yes, even that original script had problems but it was galaxies better than what we got.

 

[Zarex]

Every time I saw an article on this film pop up in my Facebook feed, the comments were always about the black Torch. That is exactly what I saw. Every. Single. Time.

If there were other worries about the movie, they were drowned out by the cries over casting. A few times I saw people mention casting in general, a few times I saw the Domashev blogger thing brought up.

That's what I saw. So stop trying to tell me what I saw and didn't see. I know what I saw and read.

I saw the same exact thing. And I wondered why it didn't match up at all with the arguments we were having here on the Hype. The reaction to the Jordan casting could be classified as "mild annoyance" at best. And that was confirmed by Jordan himself, who while presenting himself as the Jackie Robinson of CBMs included a couple of mildly snarky internet comments in his EW article.

Folks on these threads were much more upset with the casting of Miles Teller as Reed and Jamie Bell as Ben, yet those arguments were ignored by the articles popping up in your Facebook feed. In fact all of our concerns were ignored - blogger hobo Domashev, the suits with vents and springs, naked Ben, government weapons, etc. But not Mr. Jordan's casting.

The casting of Mr. Jordan was blown up into a major racial controversy in order to provide web site click bait. That's what you saw and read.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

That's what I saw. So stop trying to tell me what I saw and didn't see. I know what I saw and read.

I'm not defending the film in any way, and I definitely didn't come in this section of the Hype much during the production period, I'm telling you what i saw on Facebook in my own feed. I think I know what I saw in my own Facebook feed, so stop trying to claim you know better.

You're not on Facebook. You're in the FF section of Superherohype.

I DO know better than you what has been posted here. I frankly don't give a s*** what you saw on your facebook feed because you're not on facebook. You're here.

You made the ridiculous claim that nobody knew what this film would be like and that's flat out untrue. We've known for the past year and a half what it would be like, and if you had actually spent time here, you might have known also and you wouldn't be here blaming us for things you read on facebook.

 

[Tony Stark]

Wow, to say that there were no warning signs other than complaints about a "black Torch"???

I just don't even know how to respond to that.

There are a handful of us who have been on these threads almost from the get go. We were called haters and all sorts of things. I think I maybe mentioned the MBJ casting a few times, as yes there were people upset about it, but not half as much as people were upset about doing an Ultimate rendition of the comic with a young Reed Richards.

The biggest problem was there was little or no information on anything. The two biggest early warning signs were no SDCC appearance in 2014 when they were rumored to be on the slate for Fox and then pulled. And the second was the film getting pushed back to august.

If that wasn't enough for you the leaked on set pics of Doom, the massive reshoots, the rumors of Trank's on set behavior, along with none of the cast seeming to have much information to share on anything. Including having to correct Kate Mara's interview where she said the actors were told not to read the comics, because the plot wouldn't be based on any of them.

It was pretty much then on that there was nothing but negative information coming out of this film.

I'd say the nail in the coffin was at the Star Wars Celebration where Trank was abruptly pulled, and then his firing was announced. It was clear to anyone with sense that he was fired. The studio was trying to protect him, and they even tried to protect him when he was locked out of the editing room, but Trank's ego couldn't accept that and he still went to burn all his bridges.

To quote moviebob who summed it up nicely, "and if I sound more resigned than passionately infuriated by this film, it's because if your the dumb **** whose surprised that a cheap *** Fox superhero movie getting dumped into early August is a bucket of room temperature Skrull ****, I've got some prime real estate on the blue area of the moon I'd like to sell to you."

 

[Surfer]

I saw the same exact thing. And I wondered why it didn't match up at all with the arguments we were having here on the Hype. The reaction to the Jordan casting could be classified as "mild annoyance" at best. And that was confirmed by Jordan himself, who while presenting himself as the Jackie Robinson of CBMs included a couple of mildly snarky internet comments in his EW article.

Folks on these threads were much more upset with the casting of Miles Teller as Reed and Jamie Bell as Ben, yet those arguments were ignored by the articles popping up in your Facebook feed. In fact all of our concerns were ignored - blogger hobo Domashev, the suits with vents and springs, naked Ben, government weapons, etc. But not Mr. Jordan's casting.

The casting of Mr. Jordan was blown up into a major racial controversy in order to provide web site click bait. That's what you saw and read.

Exactly! The news is going to pull off the internet whatever they think will get more people to read their articles. So, while many people on this forum were having trouble also accepting Miles Teller as Reed or Jamie Bell as Ben, the news knows Michael B. Jordan as Torch with the race change will garner more attention, so they focus on that. Also, if people didn't especially like the race change it doesn't necessarily mean they are racists, but instead it could be they are comic book purists. Meaning they don't want to see a white person playing Luke Cage, Black Panther, Mandarin or Shang Chi either.

I mean it is a strange world we live in because your racist if you don't want a person of a different ethnicity to play in a role originally interpreted as a white character. But then you are also equally racist through stereotyping if you want to have a role fulfilled by someone other then a white person if the character is originally interpreted as something other then white, such as Mandarin. I could understand the stereotyping concern if they were making fun of him, but oh wait they did that in the movie anyways making the stereotyping reason kind of a moot point. I think if they just made the Mandarin a total bad ass that it would have been in no way a bad stereotyping and I just don't get why that would have been more racist then what they did in the movie. In addition, they decided discriminating against people of different ethnicity other then white for roles of characters with a similar ethnicity is a better way to go, then facing the concerns of stereotyping which I already showed to be invalid. I just don't get it. Political correctness is crazy. I say just give it to the best choice for the character, by respecting the source and let all of this other political nonsense go away.

Surfer

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I definitely didn't come in this section of the Hype much during the production period

Case closed.

 

[chamber-music]

Comment sections at Facebook, Yahoo, Youtube, ect are a hotbed for racist comments so I'm not sure why anyone would gauge public perception of anything from those areas.

You post anything featuring a black person and there is a vile racial comment on most of those sites.

Moderated sites like Hype, CBR, NeoGaf, ect had most fans in genuine debate and honest critique on the FF production.

Seems to be either a touch of historical revisionism or wilful ignorance when it comes to the much talked out warning signs many people were vocal about regarding this FF movie.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Comment sections at Facebook, Yahoo, Youtube, ect are a hotbed for racist comments so I'm not sure why anyone would gauge public perception of anything from those areas.

To try and win an argument. Folks around here are onto that, though.

Seems to be either a touch of historical revisionism or wilful ignorance when it comes to the much talked out warning signs many people were vocal about regarding this FF movie.

Indeed.

The posts are all there. Dozens of us knew this would be a stinker from the very beginning and said so hundreds of times. It had nothing to do with any one production decision and everything to do with this being a sleazy bad faith attempt by Fox.

 

[InCali]

Exactly! The news is going to pull off the internet whatever they think will get more people to read their articles. So, while many people on this forum were having trouble also accepting Miles Teller as Reed or Jamie Bell as Ben, the news knows Michael B. Jordan as Torch with the race change will garner more attention, so they focus on that. Also, if people didn't especially like the race change it doesn't necessarily mean they are racists, but instead it could be they are comic book purists. Meaning they don't want to see a white person playing Luke Cage, Black Panther, Mandarin or Shang Chi either.

I mean it is a strange world we live in because your racist if you don't want a person of a different ethnicity to play in a role originally interpreted as a white character. But then you are also equally racist through stereotyping if you want to have a role fulfilled by someone other then a white person if the character is originally interpreted as something other then white, such as Mandarin. I could understand the stereotyping concern if they were making fun of him, but oh wait they did that in the movie anyways making the stereotyping reason kind of a moot point. I think if they just made the Mandarin a total bad ass that it would have been in no way a bad stereotyping and I just don't get why that would have been more racist then what they did in the movie. In addition, they decided discriminating against people of different ethnicity other then white for roles of characters with a similar ethnicity is a better way to go, then facing the concerns of stereotyping which I already showed to be invalid. I just don't get it. Political correctness is crazy. I say just give it to the best choice for the character, by respecting the source and let all of this other political nonsense go away.

Surfer

The problem, if there is one, is that way back when at the time when most of these characters were created (1960s), they were generally white dudes. That's not a slam on Marvel (Kirby and Lee). They were trying to sell comic books. When I think of HT, I think of a brash, young, $#!t talking blond dude and my preference is to keep that person. I'm not saying you "can't" change it and still have it fly. I'm just saying that it would take an adjustment for me which might or might not work.

The dichotomy between FB and SHH is an interesting one and I think the reasons for the difference was just explained pretty well. Here, we are the consumers and just want to see a good movie. Other people want to sell stuff via the media they use. If movie studios want to sell movies, they better listen to people like us.

 

[Krystal]

Brawl broke out at a FFINO screening!
There was only one patron watching the movie, but the dude had multiple personalities.
One personality was disgusted that it was nothing like the comic and wanted to walk out, another was a huge Trank fan and a thought it was awesome, a third personality had fallen asleep and was angry about being woken up by the other two.
It took 3 ushers to separate him.