The Dark Knight "Five dead, two of them cops"

[muckluck]

does anyone honestly care?

well with this thread growing and growing with thoughts and opinions, they obviously do.

personally i don't really care about small-ish things like this - i just enjoy the film (especially where the 'five dead' quote appears...the ending was amazing ) but i'm not going to question what other people think because if they want to discuss things like this they can

 

[Marden]

Gordon say five dead, but does he really means five people, who were killed by Harvey? This is the idea I'll go for now and I'm okay with it.

I think Gordon knew about Wuertz(first cop), Maroni and Maroni's driver. Now as one of you said Gordon knew there was one more traitor in his unit or he just couldn't reach Ramirez at that time, so he thought he killed her(second cop). Of course, she was just knocked out and couldn't respond. Now the final fifth dead is Harvey in my eyes, because, in my opinion, good ol' Jim was talking about the situation, when he said: "Five dead, two of them cops. You can't sweep that up."

 

[Anita18]

Still thinking about this, LOL, and I'm pretty convinced now that the two cops that Gordon are referring to are Davis and Polk, the cops at the hospital that Joker killed.

Nobody knew that Joker was at the hospital to begin with, except for Harvey and the people who were taken hostage, and by the time they were freed, Gordon was long gone. Wuertz had that day off, and the only person at the bar, as far as we can see, is the bartender, whom Harvey could have subdued. He let Ramirez live, but Gordon was probably with the SWAT team at the Pruitt building already, so nobody would have missed her absence until later.

I'm trying to remember whether there was another bodyguard in Maroni's car besides the driver. Harvey pulls one away when some guy is helping Maroni into the car, but in the next cut, it seems like Maroni just closed the car door and the car's already going. It doesn't seem to be enough time for the driver to walk to the other side of the car, get in, and start driving.

Clearly I need to see this again.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Still thinking about this, LOL, and I'm pretty convinced now that the two cops that Gordon are referring to are Davis and Polk, the cops at the hospital that Joker killed.

Nobody knew that Joker was at the hospital to begin with, except for Harvey and the people who were taken hostage, and by the time they were freed, Gordon was long gone. Wuertz had that day off, and the only person at the bar, as far as we can see, is the bartender, whom Harvey could have subdued. He let Ramirez live, but Gordon was probably with the SWAT team at the Pruitt building already, so nobody would have missed her absence until later.

I'm trying to remember whether there was another bodyguard in Maroni's car besides the driver. Harvey pulls one away when some guy is helping Maroni into the car, but in the next cut, it seems like Maroni just closed the car door and the car's already going. It doesn't seem to be enough time for the driver to walk to the other side of the car, get in, and start driving.

Clearly I need to see this again.

I don't think that works and here's why. Davis' and Polk's bodies were still in the hospital when it exploded, so who knows what kind of condition their bodies were in after the explosion. Probably not enough left of the bodies to determine they were even shot to death first. I guess you could counter that by saying that Gordon just assumes Davis and Polk were killed by Dent because Dent escaped and Davis and Polk were never heard from again. But I don't like to think that Gordon would be so off the mark in determining the deaths that Dent was responsible for.

I see it as Wuertz is one of the cops Gordon was counting. Just because he is taking the day off doesn't mean he's no longer a cop. And I am pretty much convinced the other cop is Ramirez. She is knocked out cold and probably assumed dead but obviously she wasn't. Then there is Maroni and the driver, that's three and four.

I'm struggling with the fifth one. I'm leaning towards Dent himself. When Gordon says "Five dead, two of them cops", perhaps he's telling Batman that five is the number of deaths that would have to be pinned on him (Batman) to clear Dent. Essentially Batman would have to take responsibility for Dent's death as well. I'm trying to think also, how would Dent's death be explained to the public. Because it was made clear on the news that Dent's body was evacuated from the hospital. So the hospital explosion cannot be blamed for Dent's death. This is tricky.

 

[Anita18]

I don't think that works and here's why. Davis' and Polk's bodies were still in the hospital when it exploded, so who knows what kind of condition their bodies were in after the explosion. Probably not enough left of the bodies to determine they were even shot to death first. I guess you could counter that by saying that Gordon just assumes Davis and Polk were killed by Dent because Dent escaped and Davis and Polk were never heard from again. But I don't like to think that Gordon would be so off the mark in determining the deaths that Dent was responsible for.

I see it as Wuertz is one of the cops Gordon was counting. Just because he is taking the day off doesn't mean he's no longer a cop. And I am pretty much convinced the other cop is Ramirez. She is knocked out cold and probably assumed dead but obviously she wasn't. Then there is Maroni and the driver, that's three and four.

Wuertz has the day off so no one at the MCU knows he's missing, unless someone came across the body and called it in. And Gordon was busy trying to figure things out with the mayor and Batman regarding the Joker hostage situation, so he wouldn't necessarily be notified of that straight off. Someone might have noticed Ramirez gone, but Dent took her away at the height of the SWAT team/Joker hostage insanity, so Gordon would not have necessarily known about her absence.

It's very likely that Davis and Polk were the two officers assigned to watch Dent's hospital room. (Again, I don't recall seeing them so I have to watch the film again. ) The nurse even asks them to help evacuate patients, since they were initially hesitant to leave their post. Gordon figures that since they're missing and Dent survived the hospital explosion, he must have escaped by killing them.

Anyway, I'll probably dig up this thread again after seeing the film another time and keeping track of the number of people we suspect to be dead.

The early draft of the script says 5 dead, and it doesn't mention that we see Dent pulling away Maroni's bodyguard, so I have no idea what to think about that.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Wuertz has the day off so no one at the MCU knows he's missing, unless someone came across the body and called it in.

Bingo! Wouldn't the bartender have called it in after he got back? Or perhaps someone else who came into the bar and found the body?

And Gordon was busy trying to figure things out with the mayor and Batman regarding the Joker hostage situation, so he wouldn't necessarily be notified of that straight off. Someone might have noticed Ramirez gone, but Dent took her away at the height of the SWAT team/Joker hostage insanity, so Gordon would not have necessarily known about her absence.

True, but she was still an officer that Dent targeted and I think just for story purposes Wuertz and Ramirez are the two cops considered "dead" because their characters have the most impact on the story. I don't think Nolan is referring to something as big as "2 cops dead" at the hands of Dent being two hospital cops we saw for like 5 seconds.

It's very likely that Davis and Polk were the two officers assigned to watch Dent's hospital room. (Again, I don't recall seeing them so I have to watch the film again. ) The nurse even asks them to help evacuate patients, since they were initially hesitant to leave their post. Gordon figures that since they're missing and Dent survived the hospital explosion, he must have escaped by killing them.

But Gordon hears the explosion and realizes it's Gotham General. He must have obviously realized that the Joker was responsible for the explosion. So it's unfair for Gordon to assume that Dent killed those two cops in the hospital when Joker could have just as easily as well. He doesn't have enough evidence to pin it on Dent. Sure, it's a possibility but that possibility is cancelled out when you factor in Joker being responsible for the explosion. So he has to keep both options open and cannot definitively say those deaths were necessarily the doings of Dent.

Anyway, I'll probably dig up this thread again after seeing the film another time and keeping track of the number of people we suspect to be dead.

The early draft of the script says 5 dead, and it doesn't mention that we see Dent pulling away Maroni's bodyguard, so I have no idea what to think about that.

Dent pulled away Maroni's bodyguard but you don't hear a gunshot. And you don't see anyone else reacting to a gunshot. Plus I don't think they would have Dent killing someone off screen. I think the bodyguard just got pulled away and perhaps thrown down to the ground or knocked out.

 

[Anita18]

Bingo! Wouldn't the bartender have called it in after he got back? Or perhaps someone else who came into the bar and found the body?

Right, but at that point everyone's trying to get out of Gotham, not going in for a drink. Unless they've got the same attitude as Commissioner Loeb, but...anyway.

And I suspect that Dent probably knocked out the bartender at the very least. The bartender might not even know it was Dent, they don't show us.

True, but she was still an officer that Dent targeted and I think just for story purposes Wuertz and Ramirez are the two cops considered "dead" because their characters have the most impact on the story. I don't think Nolan is referring to something as big as "2 cops dead" at the hands of Dent being two hospital cops we saw for like 5 seconds.

That's true, but Gordon just refers to "cops" and not "Wuertz and Ramirez," even though he worked closely with them.

It's actually not all that important to the story as to which cops he's referring to, really. It's just fun to speculate, considering how logical the rest of TDK is, in terms of character motivations. And I'm saying that, realistically, Gordon would not likely have been notified of Wuertz's death and Ramirez's absence in the time span that the film shows us.

But Gordon hears the explosion and realizes it's Gotham General. He must have obviously realized that the Joker was responsible for the explosion. So it's unfair for Gordon to assume that Dent killed those two cops in the hospital when Joker could have just as easily as well. He doesn't have enough evidence to pin it on Dent. Sure, it's a possibility but that possibility is cancelled out when you factor in Joker being responsible for the explosion. So he has to keep both options open and cannot definitively say those deaths were necessarily the doings of Dent.

But Gordon also knows that Joker has the means to detonate the hospital remotely, which is what he threatened to do with the ferries. To him, the two cops and Dent should have gotten out all at the same time, because Dent was their responsibility. If Dent made it and the two cops who were watching the door did not, something seriously fishy went on. And since he only knew that Dent was at the hospital and not necessarily Joker, Dent killing those cops before he escaped was the conclusion he drew.

At least, according to my own logic. Are we engaged in a logic war now?

Or maybe the Nolans didn't think this one all the way through and they are referring to Wuertz and Ramirez, but didn't realize it could be logically pinned on two other cops at Gotham General if the timeline didn't work out.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Right, but at that point everyone's trying to get out of Gotham, not going in for a drink. Unless they've got the same attitude as Commissioner Loeb, but...anyway.

LOL, good point, forgot about that. t:

And I suspect that Dent probably knocked out the bartender at the very least. The bartender might not even know it was Dent, they don't show us.

That's true, but Gordon just refers to "cops" and not "Wuertz and Ramirez," even though he worked closely with them.

It's actually not all that important to the story as to which cops he's referring to, really. It's just fun to speculate, considering how logical the rest of TDK is, in terms of character motivations. And I'm saying that, realistically, Gordon would not likely have been notified of Wuertz's death and Ramirez's absence in the time span that the film shows us.

But Gordon found out Wuertz was one of the corrupt cops. He had that convo with Dent in the hospital and he was asking Dent who the other cop was who picked up Rachel. So Gordon found out Wuertz was corrupt and drove Dent to the destination where he was tied up and left to die. Therefore he could have pieced together at some point that Dent was responsible for the death of Wuertz.

And you mention that realistically Gordon would not have been notified of Wuertz death and Ramirez absence in the time span the film shows us yet you have no problem believing that Gordon was notified of Maroni and his driver's death? Because how else would he have known of the other deaths outside of the cops? If you're willing to believe he would have been notified of those deaths (Maroni and his driver) why is it so hard to believe he would have been notified of Wuertz death and Ramirez absence?

 

[Anita18]

And you mention that realistically Gordon would not have been notified of Wuertz death and Ramirez absence in the time span the film shows us yet you have no problem believing that Gordon was notified of Maroni and his driver's death? Because how else would he have known of the other deaths outside of the cops? If you're willing to believe he would have been notified of those deaths (Maroni and his driver) why is it so hard to believe he would have been notified of Wuertz death and Ramirez absence?

Cause Dent caused quite a showy car accident out in the open, and it's more likely someone would have stumbled upon it or heard it while fleeing Gotham than randomly wandering into an empty bar.

Or the two cops could be Polk and Wuertz. This is like musical chairs! Ramirez is least likely, IMO, since Gordon was busy with his SWAT team and only Barbara would know that Dent got to her.

 

[BizarroAids]

There's alot of long posts on the last few pages, so I'm sorry if this is already been answered.

But are you guys including Lau into the number of people killed??

 

[Bub]

There's alot of long posts on the last few pages, so I'm sorry if this is already been answered.

But are you guys including Lau into the number of people killed??

Gordon knew that Joker had Lau with him on the boat. And at the same time he's telling the MCU, SWAT and other cops the plan (Lau alive, Joker either way), Gordon knows that Dent is still in the hospital. He knows that because any time we see the outside of Dent's room, there's a cop or two posted there.

So I see no reason why they would assume Lau was killed by Dent.

 

[MrWayne]

cant wait till this one gets solved... lol

 

[Lazlo Panaflex]

What about those two guys lying dead on the table when Batman takes a chunk of the wall for bullet inspection, they were cops too right?

 

[MrWayne]

yup thats it! mystery solved!!!
No wait... they were killed by the Joker...

 

[scifiwolf]

I'm inclined to believe there were two more murders that took place in the 30 min or so that got cut from the film.

 

[Anita18]

I'm inclined to believe there were two more murders that took place in the 30 min or so that got cut from the film.

The early draft of the script doesn't contain 30 extra minutes, and it doesn't even mention Dent pulling away Maroni's bodyguard, so I think we're supposed to figure out "five dead, two of them cops" quote from what we were given.

Or..not figure it out. Either way.

 

[MrWayne]

is it even important that we didnt see each and every killing? Gordon says 5 dead 2 cops so its 5 dead 2 were cops.. thats it! dont argue with Nolan!

 

[CFE]

Why are people having a hard time explaining the two cops when Wuertz WAS a cop???

That's one right there, so...



CFE

 

[mikeownsyourfac]

alright here's the deal.

dent wasn't just a terrorizing lunatic who went killing everyone he got his hands on... he was just vengeful. the people dent killed were pin-pointed deaths... people directly involved in rachel's death and his own disfigurement. he had no reason to kill anyone else. so the "5 dead, 2 of them cops" remark DEFINITELY does not refer to the 2 cops at the hospital, or the bar tender, or maroni's bodyguard - on OR off screen.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WATCHED. dent went after: wuertz, the cop who picked him up; maroni, the mob boss who followed out his and rachel's entrapment; ramirez, the cop who picked up rachel; and then finally gordon, because gordon didn't listen to dent when dent had originally said there were bad cops in gordon's unit. clearly he didn't kill ramirez because she lucked out in the coin toss. so did maroni technically, but dent obviously very much wanted him dead, so found an alternative to killing him by killing his driver with another coin toss.

SO as much as i don't know who the missing people are among "5 dead, 2 of them cops", i hope this helps you morons figure out WHO ISN'T included in those numbers.

SO AGAIN, those definitely NOT included in "5 dead, 2 of them cops" would be: the 2 cops watching dent at the hospital, the BARTENDER, maroni's bodyguard, and ramirez.

 

[Toxin72]

alright here's the deal.

dent wasn't just a terrorizing lunatic who went killing everyone he got his hands on... he was just vengeful. the people dent killed were pin-pointed deaths... people directly involved in rachel's death and his own disfigurement. he had no reason to kill anyone else. so the "5 dead, 2 of them cops" remark DEFINITELY does not refer to the 2 cops at the hospital, or the bar tender, or maroni's bodyguard - on OR off screen.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WATCHED. dent went after: wuertz, the cop who picked him up; maroni, the mob boss who followed out his and rachel's entrapment; ramirez, the cop who picked up rachel; and then finally gordon, because gordon didn't listen to dent when dent had originally said there were bad cops in gordon's unit. clearly he didn't kill ramirez because she lucked out in the coin toss. so did maroni technically, but dent obviously very much wanted him dead, so found an alternative to killing him by killing his driver with another coin toss.

SO as much as i don't know who the missing people are among "5 dead, 2 of them cops", i hope this helps you morons figure out WHO ISN'T included in those numbers.

SO AGAIN, those definitely NOT included in "5 dead, 2 of them cops" would be: the 2 cops watching dent at the hospital, the BARTENDER, maroni's bodyguard, and ramirez.

Gordon could have assumed that ramirez was dead since she would have been knocked out and he probably can't get a hold of her. I would like to know how gordon knows who dent kills in the first place. Harvey never says anything to him about who he killed so at most it would have to be assumptions wouldn't it?

 

[mikeownsyourfac]

its possible that he could be referring to ramirez... but regardless i don't know how the news of wuertz, maroni and ramirez could have gotten to gordon with in the time that passed in the movie...

because up until the point that batman confronted the joker in the pruit building, gordon THOUGHT that the joker had harvey with him, as i recall him screaming "HE HAS DENT! WE HAVE TO SAVE DENT! I...HAVE TO SAVE DENT!" and moments later barbara called gordon and told him that she and the kids were kidnapped by harvey...

so if gordon was under the impression that dent was in the pruit building and then met his wife and kids at 250 52nd street MINUTES later, at what point would he have been informed of anyone that dent killed?

know what im sayin?

all im suggesting is that no matter who gordon is referring to in "5 dead, 2 of them cops" it definately isnt those few ridiculous people that some have suggested....

 

[Magenta666]

did anyone bring up that one of the "5 dead" could be that goon of maronis who two face (might have) killed to get into the car?

 

[johnlennon696]

Now this is one question i or anyone doesn't seem to have a definitive answer on!!

Maybe this, and maybe other questions, should be put to Nolan for a Q+A Session on the DVD....

Or just leave it for our lively debate!!

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i dont think theres anything to figure out, i just think it was mentioned to highlight what Harvey has become and show the need for Batman to make the sacrifice.

 

[Darkknight14]

Ok, so, we know for certain that Weurtz is one, and Maroni's driver is two. The bartender didn't bite the dust because Dent has to flip a coin if he's gonna kill you, and there wasn't nearly enough time for him to do that. Besides, he has no reason to kill the bartender. There were three people in the Maroni's car besides Dent. There was Maroni, the driver, and the guy who opened the door for Maroni and then got into the front passenger door. You can assume that both Maroni and the bodyguard died, because Dent survived the crash, and would therefore have made sure that anyone left in the car did die before he left. Make sense? Good. That's four. We're missing one more cop. Ramirez just got pistol whipped so she's good. Dent didn't kill the other bodyguard of Maroni's by the way, he just took him down to get into the car. Now, Gordon can't have known or thought that Dent killed those two cops to get out of the hospital, because they all thought that the Joker took him on the bus that he hijacked during the hospital scene. As far as that last cop goes though, I'm a little bit stumped. Thoughts?