Franchise Battle: Halloween vs. Friday the 13th vs. Nightmare on Elm Street

[Fresh Prince]

Season of the Witch was a good horror movie actually....Should get remade....And JAson Goes To Hell was just......

 

[CelticPredator]

Shut up. Dont ever say that again. Season of the Witch is fine. Stop asking for remakes.

 

[CelticPredator]

Yes, you've indeed spent plenty of time fitting the description referenced in my avatar and custom title.

And since you like the Saw franchise, you'll probably go to hell...as God himself said, as evident in my sig.

 

[Venom75]

Honestly,I never got into the Saw films. The first one was a great and original idea,but all these sequels is overkill. I mean,I think Saw 7 is already planned for next year! Jeez.

 

[Orb]

Saw 1 was the only good one in my opinion.

 

[Heretic]

I gave up on Saw after umm...4 I think. Jigsaw died, and the next film was happening at the same time...I get that. However, two films later he is still around playing games??? I'm sure the films halfheartedly answer how that is possible, but I dnt care what the answer is. I will watch just about any horror movie...even if I know it will be bad. The major crime is when the film presents a situation that I dont care about, no matter how they answer it.

 

[san15]

I love watching Micheal, Jason, and Freddy, but I was too young to experience their movies during the eighties. I’m glad I discovered them on television and dvd.

I also love the Saw movies.

 

[Heretic]

Halloween is clearly the best of the three as far as franchises go, because it is the only one that cared to go beyond just "guy kills teenagers".

The problem is that Halloween has refused to admit any links to that growth. After building a story from 1,2 and 4-6...the creators tossed that away so they could bring back Jamie Lee Curtis (and avoid the very obvious fact that she sent her daughter to die intentionally). Then, when sequels didn't go well, they decided to wipe the entire slate clean and start over. Now it appears they will start over AGAIN.

With Halloween's massive blunders, I think there's some room for discussion now...and I think Hellraiser should be in that discussion.

 

[Venom75]

I think it's ironic that the original Halloween is one of the greatest horror films ever because Halloween:Resurrection is one of the worst. I mean,Michael Myers getting beaten up by Busta Rythmes??! Ugh. Freakin' horrible.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ Ressurection is possibly the worst halloween film ever. Hell, personally, I think H6 gets a little too much hate. I mean, atleast that was scary. The producers cut is better, IMO.

 

[The Joker]

The problem is that Halloween has refused to admit any links to that growth. After building a story from 1,2 and 4-6...the creators tossed that away so they could bring back Jamie Lee Curtis (and avoid the very obvious fact that she sent her daughter to die intentionally).

They tossed away the H4-6 plot in H20 because the franchise was in danger of going DTV from that. They wrote themselves into a corner. By the end of H6, Jamie was dead, Loomis was dead, Michael was being controlled by some stupid cult called Thorn, and Michael had spawned a child with his own niece in this cult, and the child was being protected by TOMMY DOYLE, who had been the little kid Laurie was babysitting in H1.

What a croc of s***!!!! The Halloween franchise badly needed Laurie Strode, one of the original icons back again in a fresh new story arc that ignored all that crapola.

 

[Heretic]

They tossed away the H4-6 plot in H20 because the franchise was in danger of going DTV from that. They wrote themselves into a corner. By the end of H6, Jamie was dead, Loomis was dead, Michael was being controlled by some stupid cult called Thorn, and Michael had spawned a child with his own niece in this cult, and the child was being protected by TOMMY DOYLE, who had been the little kid Laurie was babysitting in H1.

What a croc of s***!!!! The Halloween franchise badly needed Laurie Strode, one of the original icons back again in a fresh new story arc that ignored all that crapola.

I do not take money into account when judging a films quality...therefore, it doesnt matter to me that Curtis' name value saved it from DTV.

There was no corner to paint themselves into. The fact of the matter is that Halloween has a mythology that you dont like...deal with it. In case you want to erase 4-6, Rob Zombie also featured the same concept of the Meyers bloodline being evil in his films. That means the concept you want washed away has been featured in 6 films...Jamie Lee Curtis in 4.

It appears that you simply dont like the mythology of the series and prefer to keep reliving the first film over and over with no growth.

 

[The Joker]

I do not take money into account when judging a films quality...therefore, it doesnt matter to me that Curtis' name value saved it from DTV.

Neither do I.

I'm pointing out the fact that by H6, any characters of value were gone. Loomis, Jamie, Laurie.......dead. Who wants to see Michael chase his own baby that he spawned with his niece?

The idea was so universally shunned, that they welcomed Jamie Lee Curtis back with open arms.

There was no corner to paint themselves into. The fact of the matter is that Halloween has a mythology that you dont like...deal with it.

Deal with it? Deal with what? The fact that the majority of the Halloween fan base hated that direction they took in H5 and H6?

Of course there was a corner to paint themselves into. Don't be ignorant of the facts. Michael Myers was a mystery. Why he stabbed his sister as a child, or why he wanted to eradicate the rest of his family was always a mystery. Loomis could only ever theorize that Michael was pure evil. We never knew what drove him to do what he did. And that was one of Michael's strongest and scariest traits.

Jason killed people because his beloved mother was beheaded by camp counselors. Freddy was a child killer seeking revenge on the kids of the parents who burned him alive. Michael had the edge over these two because he was a mystery. The unknown is ALOT scarier.

Then in H5, someone came up with the lame idea of Michael suddenly having some wierd mark on his wrist. And then in H6 we learn it's a symbol of some cult called Thorn, who controlled Michael thru stellar constellations and other such crap, to make him sacrifice a family member on Halloween as part of some ancient ritual.

The general consensus was that this was RUBBISH. It ruined Michael Myers' character.

In case you want to erase 4-6, Rob Zombie also featured the same concept of the Meyers bloodline being evil in his films. That means the concept you want washed away has been featured in 6 films...Jamie Lee Curtis in 4.

I hate Rob Zombie's movies. I think they're rubbish. In the first movie, the first half had Michael growing up in a white trash family, and the second half was a poor carbon copy of the original. And the less said about the sequal with it's images of white horses and "Kill for mommy" visions, the better.

Jamie Lee Curtis' H20 returned Michael to what he was in Halloween 1 and 2. It returned the franchise to it's roots. Something that was lost sight of in the previous two sequals.

It appears that you simply dont like the mythology of the series and prefer to keep reliving the first film over and over with no growth.

Your powers of perception are waaaaaaay off then.

I'm all for growth. If it's good growth. H20 was good growth, for example. It evolved Laurie Strode's character wonderfully. She finally stopped running, and faced her demons, and even became the stalker of Michael at one point in the movie. The old franchise should have ended with H20. But it was so successful, that they went and made a direct dequal, which screwed up the brilliant ending of H20.

I even liked Halloween 4. That stayed true to Michael's roots. They had not introduced the stupid Thorn crap in that yet.

 

[Heretic]

Laurie's character evolved in part 4 as well...she died off screen because the actress felt the franchise was beneath her.

The growth continued in Halloween: Water when it was revealed that Laurie actually faked her death and was in hiding for years, even sending her own daughter to be stalked and murdered.

By the way, I can back that up with cinematic history...at no point did 4-6 disqualify 1 or 2...but Water attempted to convince us all that 4-6 never occurred...the movies were never filmed.

Of course, we know better. if the fans and creative teams decided that it was a lame story to go with, it could have easily been fixed. In fact...once you accept that 4-6 ar actual movies that exist, then it makes PERFECT sense...because Laurie has that evil blood in her, and she would do something like sacrificing her daughter, and turn into a stalker hunting her brother by movies end. The only reason why Water doesnt fit perfectly into the mythos is because of the ego of the actress and cowardice of the creative team.

 

[Heretic]

Laurie's character evolved in part 4 as well...she died off screen because the actress felt the franchise was beneath her.

The growth continued in Halloween: Water when it was revealed that Laurie actually faked her death and was in hiding for years, even sending her own daughter to be stalked and murdered.

By the way, I can back that up with cinematic history...at no point did 4-6 disqualify 1 or 2...but Water attempted to convince us all that 4-6 never occurred...the movies were never filmed.

Of course, we know better. if the fans and creative teams decided that it was a lame story to go with, it could have easily been fixed. In fact...once you accept that 4-6 ar actual movies that exist, then it makes PERFECT sense...because Laurie has that evil blood in her, and she would do something like sacrificing her daughter, and turn into a stalker hunting her brother by movies end. The only reason why Water doesnt fit perfectly into the mythos is because of the ego of the actress and cowardice of the creative team.

 

[The Joker]

Laurie's character evolved in part 4 as well...she died off screen because the actress felt the franchise was beneath her.

No, she left because Halloween II was supposed to be the closing chapter on the Michael Myers story. John Carpenter wrote the ending of HII as Michael and Loomis dying in that fire. That's why the closing shot is of Michael burning. It was supposed to be the end of him.

Carpenter moved on with a totally different story in Halloween 3, which as we know was a box office flop. Fans wanted Michael back. But Carpenter and Curtis felt they were done with it at that time.

Curtis never shunned the franchise. She wouldn't have returned to it as a way of celebrating her 20 years in show business if she felt it was beneath her. Watch the special features on the DVD. She is very proud of her part in the Halloween movies.

It's Carpenter who shuns the franchise, and feels all the sequals ruined the original. Curtis wanted him to direct H20, but he refused.

The growth continued in Halloween: Water when it was revealed that Laurie actually faked her death and was in hiding for years, even sending her own daughter to be stalked and murdered.

No, H4-6 is not part of H20's continuity. They never happened. H20 is a direct sequal to the first two movies. Laurie never had a daughter in that continuity. Hence why the Police at the beginning say that Michael has not been seen in 20 years.

Not to mention all of Loomis' newspaper clips and pictures in bedroom are only related to the first two movies.

By the way, I can back that up with cinematic history...at no point did 4-6 disqualify 1 or 2...but Water attempted to convince us all that 4-6 never occurred...the movies were never filmed.

Yes, I know. It's two different continuities. They had to ignore H4-6 for a couple of reasons:

1. The crappy storyline they were left with at the end of H6
2. To bring Laurie back, they had to retcon the existence of her daughter. The audience could never sympathize with a mother who abandoned her own child to her psycho brother.

The only reason why Water doesnt fit perfectly into the mythos is because of the ego of the actress and cowardice of the creative team.

Ehhhh no. The reason it was retconned is because the storyline was shunned by the fans. The Thorn storyline is generally hated by the fan base. It's nonsesnse, and completely removes Michael's mystery and edge.

Good writing and sound thinking ignored it. Why do you think H20 was so successful? It returned the franchise to it's roots.

Donald Pleasance, an even bigger Halloween icon than Curtis, couldn't save H5 and H6 from the fans' backlash, or being the critical and financial disasters they were.

 

[Heretic]

Water made money because it was hyped as the return of the original team, thats it.

You keep saying over and over that 4-6 never happened, but I have DVDs that prove they did. I can post links to order those DVDs if you need evidence.

Were 4-6 bad writing??? Maybe...they had to go in a different direction though since Curtis wasnt around to be in the movies...and they wanted to develop SOMETHING instead of being like Jason and reliving the same movie over and over. I suppose they could have not made movies and waited for Curtis to have 20 years in the business so she could return triumphant...

I'm not defending the story that took place in 4-6, I'm merely saying that it exists...and part 6 moves forward, without mentioning or overtly contradicting the story (aside from what you mentioned)...just as this conversation is happening, but tomorrow I will embark on a new story arc that does not mention this moment in time. If 4-6 were that terrible, simply get out of that storyline and keep going.

 

[The Joker]

Water made money because it was hyped as the return of the original team, thats it.

What is this Water you keep mentioning?

And what original team? Jamie Lee Curtis was the only one who returned. No John Carpenter. Donald Pleasance had passed away.

The fact that it was advertised as a direct sequal to the first two movies most likely helped it ALOT. That was in the title.

You keep saying over and over that 4-6 never happened, but I have DVDs that prove they did. I can post links to order those DVDs if you need evidence.

I assume you're being sarcastic here. Of course the movies existed. But in the H20 timeline, they do not. H20 is a sequal to Halloween 1 and 2, which were set in 1978, hence the H20: 20 years later tagline.

H4-6 are not part of it's continuity.

Were 4-6 bad writing??? Maybe...they had to go in a different direction though since Curtis wasnt around to be in the movies...and they wanted to develop SOMETHING instead of being like Jason and reliving the same movie over and over. I suppose they could have not made movies and waited for Curtis to have 20 years in the business so she could return triumphant...

Or they could have written decent scripts, and not get caught up in a slasher race with Jason and Freddy.

Halloween 5 for example was released less than a year after H4. And the results show.

I'm not defending the story that took place in 4-6, I'm merely saying that it exists...and part 6 moves forward

I know. Nobody denied the existence of these movies.

Halloween 4 was successful enough for them to have H5 out less than a year later. But H5 did so terribly that it was 6 years before H6 got released.

And the fans, and general audiences didn't like them. So they had two options:

1. Continue on with this terrible storyline just for the sake of continuity
2. Refresh the franchise with a new storyline, and bring back a fan favourite character from the original

I think they made the right decision.

 

[Heretic]

Halloween: Water was a reunion in the fans eyes of the original team...Jamie Lee and Michael.

You talk about bad writing, yet I would also define bad writing as merely deciding to forget about a characters past and pretending it never happened just so you can tell your story.

For instance, I hate the Clone Saga of Spider-Man, but if Spider-Man writers ever developed some stupid story to retcon those years away I would disa...what??? Oh...yeah, I disapprove. You must be loving the Spider-Man books right now.

Also, you left off option 3...
Continue on, since the principles were all dead except Mikey and he wasnt going to mention it again.

 

[The Joker]

Halloween: Water was a reunion in the fans eyes of the original team...Jamie Lee and Michael.

I've never heard Michael and Laurie being referred to as a team. LOL. Ridiculous.

You talk about bad writing, yet I would also define bad writing as merely deciding to forget about a characters past and pretending it never happened just so you can tell your story.

It depends on the circumstances. Would continuing the story hurt the franchise? In Halloween's case, yes. They could not simply go on without addressing the Thorn stuff, Michael having a friggin' baby with his niece etc.

For instance, I hate the Clone Saga of Spider-Man, but if Spider-Man writers ever developed some stupid story to retcon those years away I would disa...what??? Oh...yeah, I disapprove. You must be loving the Spider-Man books right now.

But the difference is that the Clone Saga had no effect on the future Spider-Man stories, other than bringing back a classic villain, the original Green Goblin.

The Clone Saga wrapped up nicely, with Peter being revealed as the real Spider-Man, and Ben Reilly was killed off. That was it. Over and done with.

Also, you left off option 3...
Continue on, since the principles were all dead except Mikey and he wasnt going to mention it again.

Nope, you still have the baby Michael spawned with his niece in that cult, who's being protected by Tommy Doyle

Nobody was interested in that. Everyone hated it. If they could have wrapped it up and moved on, they would have. But you can't sweep that under the rug and stay in continuity.

 

[Heretic]

You glossed over the Green Gobilns existence like it was nothing...um...you do realize that he is a HUGE factor in the Marvel Universe...hardly comparable to an itty bitty baby though...that baby would come back for revenge!!!!

And yes, to the general public, Halloween is Mike and Jamie Lee with some other nonsense. Some remember some old doctor dude that was crazy and all. Your entire point hinges on the MASS audience, not horror fans...and the general audience is too stupid to remember half the names and such in a 20 year old movie. Thats why I said Michael and Jamie Lee instead of Laurie. The bulk of the audience for Water probably couldnt give you the name "Donald Pleasance" if their lives depended on it.

 

[The Joker]

You glossed over the Green Gobilns existence like it was nothing...um...you do realize that he is a HUGE factor in the Marvel Universe...hardly comparable to an itty bitty baby though...that baby would come back for revenge!!!!

The glaring difference being that the Green Goblin is a fan favourite villain, who's return has been a success, and was welcomed by fans.

Nobody, horror fans included, liked Jamie being killed off, and her and Michael's bastard child being the new target. Or the whole revelation of Thorn controlling Michael being the reason why he wants to kill his family etc.

None of this was liked by the fans or the general audience. You don't seem to grasp that. Or the fact that you can't gloss over that in another movie while staying in continuity.

Thats why I said Michael and Jamie Lee instead of Laurie. The bulk of the audience for Water probably couldnt give you the name "Donald Pleasance" if their lives depended on it.

Rubbish. If they're familiar with the Halloween movies, then they know who he is. He's the second most iconic character in the series next to Michael himself.

 

[Heretic]

You are saying that the franchise was in such shambles that they had to bring back Curtis to avoid going DTV...and then follow up with what a household name Donald Pleasance was.

Those two things contradict each other. A LARGE portion of Water's revenue came from people too yung t have seen the first 2 in theaters, and they probably would have skipped 6 anyway, according to your logic.

The Green Goblins return spat in the face of the second most important event in Spider-mans life. yet again you gloss over history to justify the current decisions... To me, Green Goblins death was a major event that should not be wiped away just because lazy writers have no new ideas. Laziness from writers being what you call "in a corner".

 

[The Joker]

You are saying that the franchise was in such shambles that they had to bring back Curtis to avoid going DTV...and then follow up with what a household name Donald Pleasance was.

No, I'm saying that the franchise was in such a shambles that they had to do a different storyline, and fortunately Jamie Lee Curtis was on hand to provide that.

And as I previously mentioned several posts up, which you obviously did not read, I said even Donald Pleasance couldn't save H5 and H6. I don't think anyone could have. A bad script is a bad script, regardless of who's in it.

A LARGE portion of Water's revenue came from people too yung t have seen the first 2 in theaters, and they probably would have skipped 6 anyway, according to your logic.

What in the blue hell are you talking about? I never saw the original first two movies in the theatre either. I had just turned 18 when H20 came out. But I had seen them on TV or rented them. Same with the sequals. And so would have a majority of the younger fans.

The Green Goblins return spat in the face of the second most important event in Spider-mans life. yet again you gloss over history to justify the current decisions... To me, Green Goblins death was a major event that should not be wiped away just because lazy writers have no new ideas. Laziness from writers being what you call "in a corner".

But that's your opinion. Just like it's your opinion that they should have continued with the horrible story from H6.

You're a minority. Most fans loved having the original Green Goblin back, and most fans hated the H6 storyline.

Simple as that.

 

[slothbp]

Well, my favorite series would have to be Hellraiser 1-8. My second favorite is Nightmare1-7 and Freddy vs. Jason. I never much cared for Jason or Micheal. How many times in how many movies can you stab drunk teenagers? It's all too repetive for me. Freddy might not have always been the best quality, but he was always the most imaginative.