Justice League Gal Gadot IS Wonder Woman - Part 1

[Micromind]

* Steppenwolf was an underwhelming villain, maybe they failed to show him as formidable villain, so their way of showing that Stepenwolf was great was to show Diana struggling to win against him.

* Let's admit this is a JL movie, if WW is so powerful, then league is not needed to defeat him, even Superman is not needed.

* In a JL movie All team members should be needed to defeat the antagonist.

* As for Superman, he was shown as overpowered, Superman struggled against Doomsday, Zod and Faora, there was no reason why suddenly Superman would look extremely powerful against Steppenwolf.

 

[Micromind]

Not to mention mouth-breathers acting like she can't hold her own against "golden-boy".

Wonder Woman can certainly win in a fight against Superman but not because she is better than Superman in terms of 'raw strength'.

She can win as she is skilled and trained fighter, because she can use magical weapons which can harm / kill Superman.

Also, once she is in her 'God mode' other beings can't harm her.

 

[idiot09]

* Steppenwolf was an underwhelming villain, maybe they failed to show him as formidable villain, so their way of showing that Stepenwolf was great was to show Diana struggling to win against him.

* Let's admit this is a JL movie, if WW is so powerful, then league is not needed to defeat him, even Superman is not needed.

* In a JL movie All team members should be needed to defeat the antagonist.

* As for Superman, he was shown as overpowered, Superman struggled against Doomsday, Zod and Faora, there was no reason why suddenly Superman would look extremely powerful against Steppenwolf.

Agreed.

 

[Skrilla31]

Yeah, this was the issue. The whole league was rendered useless and Superman(although I enjoyed him) is flying around making quips, eating donuts, and filing his nails will the rest of the league is getting bodied by parademons.

Wonder Woman's skill set was not utilized in these fights with apocalyptic stakes. That is why her fans are upset. Not to mention mouth-breathers acting like she can't hold her own against "golden-boy".

Don't get me wrong I'm fully aware that anything can happen in comics especially when dealing with 'super powered' people but fantasy is also informed by reality is it not?

The record holding male weightlifter or the record holding female weightlifter, which one do you suppose could lift more weight? Better yet who would you bet on in a physical contest of strength?

I imagine seeing WW get her ass handed to her by Supes was a very humbling experience, but that is precisely why it was such a powerful scene to begin with. It felt real. It drew on real feelings. It wouldn't have that same effect if the scene played out in reverse.

 

[Loki882]

It's an irrelevant comparison. Once you establish that one is a super-powered alien and the other is a millennia-old super-powered goddess, any pretense of "reality" goes out the window.

The difference between male and female weightlifters in real life means nothing in this case.

Another problem is her dispute with Batman now that I think about it. She was AGAINST the whole "we need to bring Superman back" plan, she argues against doing it. And of course, the narrative ultimately shows her to be WRONG when it comes to the biggest internal conflict of the movie. Batman was right and she was wrong, Superman was exactly what was needed in the end. Yeah way to show her "leadership skills" there movie, ugh.

 

[valmont]

It's an irrelevant comparison. Once you establish that one is a super-powered alien and the other is a millennia-old super-powered goddess, any pretense of "reality" goes out the window.

The difference between male and female weightlifters in real life means nothing in this case.

Another problem is her dispute with Batman now that I think about it. She was AGAINST the whole "we need to bring Superman back" plan, she argues against doing it. And of course, the narrative ultimately shows her to be WRONG when it comes to the biggest internal conflict of the movie. Batman was right and she was wrong, Superman was exactly what was needed in the end. Yeah way to show her "leadership skills" there movie, ugh.

Completely agreed

 

[Micromind]

Another problem is her dispute with Batman now that I think about it. She was AGAINST the whole "we need to bring Superman back" plan, she argues against doing it. And of course, the narrative ultimately shows her to be WRONG when it comes to the biggest internal conflict of the movie. Batman was right and she was wrong, Superman was exactly what was needed in the end. Yeah way to show her "leadership skills" there movie, ugh.

She was not wrong, as her opinion was based on the risks involved and soon we see resurrected Superman acting evil, which basically proves her right.

Edit: Even Aquaman agreed with her.

 

[souperman]

* Steppenwolf was an underwhelming villain, maybe they failed to show him as formidable villain, so their way of showing that Stepenwolf was great was to show Diana struggling to win against him.
Usually in these type of films, the hero's "ramp-up" their efforts for dramatic effect. It should take "more" effort toward the end to overcome the villain.
* Let's admit this is a JL movie, if WW is so powerful, then league is not needed to defeat him, even Superman is not needed.


* In a JL movie All team members should be needed to defeat the antagonist.
not necessarily. This was an introduction to The JL and some members were not experienced fighters OR working in a team, and this was the time to find their places in the team
* As for Superman, he was shown as overpowered, Superman struggled against Doomsday, Zod and Faora, there was no reason why suddenly Superman would look extremely powerful against Steppenwolf.
Superman "struggled" more against DD because he was 1-weakened, 2-fighting a much bigger Kryptonian "killing machine" - designed to kill HIM.

Superman did not "want" to kill Zod and did everything he could to avoid it. Again, one Kryptonian against another...more of a fair fight. There "should" be struggle.
Plus- Superman was new to being Superman. He did not know his full potential strength yet...and as Jor-El said, as he tests his limits...more of his power is revealed.
Superman, when fighting Faora, was 'feeling-out" the fight. All his life he had to be careful not to harm people. He does not want to kill her or anyone, so he has to go easy at first until he sees that she can take the punishment. He then ramps up his force, as seen when he lunges at her from the bank vault.

see above in bold

 

[Skrilla31]

It's an irrelevant comparison. Once you establish that one is a super-powered alien and the other is a millennia-old super-powered goddess, any pretense of "reality" goes out the window.

The difference between male and female weightlifters in real life means nothing in this case.

Forget Superman and Wonder Woman, pretend you have Power Man and you have Power Girl. They're a supehero team.

Who would you guess is the physically stronger of the two.

 

[terry78]

She was right about bringing Supes back but of course Bats had to be right yet again by knowing to call Lois as a fail safe. Another "Batman is constantly prepared" thing.

 

[Flemm]

Who would you guess is the physically stronger of the two.

In your hypothetical scenario, the two characters would almost certainly have the same power levels.

Because the opposite would suggest that fantasies like this can't apply in equal measure to women and men, or that fantasy-based stories must automatically reflect that men are stronger than women, more powerful than women, better leaders than women, etc.

And, of course, most fantasies go out of their way to avoid this, because it is so obviously stupid, both intellectually, and from a marketing standpoint.

It would be like a Star Wars story deciding that a female Jedi can never be as powerful as a male Jedi. That's one reason why choosing a female protagonist for the new Star Wars trilogy was a smart move. Because it so totally undercuts the cliché that women cannot fully participate in that sort of fantasy fulfillment.

For similar reasons, Captain Marvel is most likely going to be no slouch in the power department, as Feige has already suggested a time or two.

The main reason? He is not stupid.

He knows this character is the first really powerful female character they are going to introduce, and the first to be featured as a protagonist in her own movie. They want to send the same message: our fantasy universe is about fantasy fulfillment for women and men on equal terms.

So the problem here has nothing to do with comics precedent, or one character needing to be stronger than the other, or anything like that. It has to do with poor creative choices, which are basically the norm for this franchise at the moment, outside of one movie.

 

[valmont]

Forget Superman and Wonder Woman, pretend you have Power Man and you have Power Girl. They're a supehero team.

Who would you guess is the physically stronger of the two.

Why Power Girl? Why not Power Woman?

 

[valmont]

In your hypothetical scenario, the two characters would almost certainly have the same power levels.

Because the opposite would suggest that fantasies like this can't apply in equal measure to women and men, or that fantasy-based stories must automatically reflect that men are stronger than women, more powerful than women, better leaders than women, etc.

And, of course, most fantasies go out of their way to avoid this, because it is so obviously stupid, both intellectually, and from a marketing standpoint.

It would be like a Star Wars story deciding that a female Jedi can never be as powerful as a male Jedi. That's one reason why choosing a female protagonist for the new Star Wars trilogy was a smart move. Because it so totally undercuts the cliché that women cannot fully participate in that sort of fantasy fulfillment.

For similar reasons, Captain Marvel is most likely going to be no slouch in the power department, as Feige has already suggested a time or two.

The main reason? He is not stupid.

He knows this character is the first really powerful female character they are going to introduce, and the first to be featured as a protagonist in her own movie. They want to send the same message: our fantasy universe is about fantasy fulfillment for women and men on equal terms.

So the problem here has nothing to do with comics precedent, or one character needing to be stronger than the other, or anything like that. It has to do with poor creative choices, which are basically the norm for this franchise at the moment, outside of one movie.

Brilliantly said!

 

[Skrilla31]

In your hypothetical scenario, the two characters would almost certainly have the same power levels.

Because the opposite would suggest that fantasies like this can't apply in equal measure to women and men, or that fantasy-based stories must automatically reflect that men are stronger than women, more powerful than women, better leaders than women, etc.

And, of course, most fantasies go out of their way to avoid this, because it is so obviously stupid, both intellectually, and from a marketing standpoint.

Don't movies automatically assume that already?

Remember that scene in The Force Awakens when Finn rushes to Rey's rescue... only to find out that she can fend off her attackers pretty easily and without his help? Notice how the movie takes a moment to gauge his surprised reaction? That is because he is also reacting on the behalf of the audience. You don't expect a woman to be able to handle herself like that against male attackers, so in order for that scene to function properly the movie needs to remind you that Rey is no ordinary girl.

Our fantasy is informed by our reality. Whether it's fantasy or not you probably don't go into any movie expecting the females to be stronger. The default rule is usually that men are stronger until the movie itself subverts that expectation. Otherwise there would be no need for that reaction shot from Finn.

 

[Flemm]

It's an interesting detail, and it confirms the main point, which is that fantasy stories like this intentionally subvert our expectations in that area because that is the smart choice.

Justice League basically takes our expectations in that area and beats us over the head with them like a brick.

That is not the smart choice, and I don't think it did either Superman or Batman any favors, tbh.

Batman comes across like a bully/jerk in one scene, and Superman basically does the same when he head butts Diana into the concrete for no particular reason, other than the director apparently trying to show what a big, strong man he is.

 

[souperman]

It's an interesting detail, and it confirms the main point, which is that fantasy stories like this intentionally subvert our expectations in that area because that is the smart choice.

Justice League basically takes our expectations in that area and beats us over the head with them like a brick.

That is not the smart choice, and I don't think it did either Superman or Batman any favors, tbh.

Batman comes across like a bully/jerk in one scene, and Superman basically does the same when he head butts Diana into the concrete for no particular reason, other than the director apparently trying to show what a big, strong man he is.

So, what would you have done differently? Just for this particular scene? So we don't go too far astray in the what ifs.

 

[idiot09]

So, what would you have done differently? Just for this particular scene? So we don't go too far astray in the what ifs.

The way I see it...

Superman was a punching bag for the most of MOS, as he got dicked around by the kryptonians. Nobody said anything.

Superman was hammered by Batman as he was holding back and because of kryptonite. And then he was thrown around like a ragdoll by Doomsday after getting hit by a nuke and several kryptonite bombs. WW was the star of that battle. Nobody complained.

In JL, during Superman's resurrection, they finally showed Superman as THE powerhouse. As he should be.

I say its about damn time.

 

[Flemm]

Well, like I said earlier, building BvS around a pissing content between Batman and Superman was not a good choice either.

And people *did* complain. Rightly so.

You're probably right that this movie was trying to compensate for that, but my main point is that whole thing just hasn't been handled well.

It shouldn't be about building up one character at the expense of others.

So, what would you have done differently?

There's no reason to try to rewrite the movie, or deal in hypothetical scenarios at all.

Leadership is traditionally Captain America's area of expertise. Does portraying Black Panther as a regal, commanding figure detract from Captain America?

No, it does not. Even in the Infinity War trailer, Black Panther and Cap both have moments of leadership. One does not detract from the other.

 

[idiot09]

that, but my main point is that whole thing just hasn't been handled well.

It shouldn't be about building up one character at the expense of others.

I didnt have a problem with the BvS fight being one sided despite being a huge Superman fan, because Batman was actually wrong which rarely happens in comics, and you dont make that happen unless you have a lot of guts. So Superman got the moral victory. I dont see these as one getting the limelight in expense of another, more as everybody getting their chance to actually shine. I dont have a problem with how they handled the Superman vs league fight. While some have raised genuine complaints that I agree with, some of them just read as disgruntled WW fans unhappy that Superman was stronger. I read similar complaints from Superman fan after the BvS fight. But that's just my opinion, and I dont agree with either.

I personally think it was Batman,Flash and Aquaman who were the least represented in battle, particularly in the final one. The whole final fight was shoddily handled.

 

[souperman]

I think they portrayed the characters fairly correctly in JL although they did overdue the comic relief too much. I think Snyder's version prob had a nice balance but WB was nervous and went with the easy laugh version.

I really don't feel any of the characters were diminished in favor of another. They were played to their strengths and shown in a good light I feel. I think any complaints come mostly from fans who want their favs to outshine the rest, and this is natural. The filmmaker needs to find a balance and a way to let each hero shine and I think they did it fairly well. I just wish there was more meat in JL. Maybe the UE version can add some extra meat to chew on.

I do find it funny that during the build-up to JL, the chatter was that they better show Superman AS SUPERMAN this time...which they did,- but now he is TOO powerful...

oh well,... say La Vee.

 

[Skrilla31]

If Wonder Woman is just as powerful as Superman then why does she need those gauntlets? Or the sword? Or the shield? Or the lasso? Wouldn't her super-strength/speed be enough?

 

[souperman]

If Wonder Woman is just as powerful as Superman then why does she need those gauntlets? Or the sword? Or the shield? Or the lasso? Wouldn't her super-strength/speed be enough?

Shhhh ! Don't mention that.

Superman could pick up a handful of pebbles and throw them at WW faster than a bullet, she would not be able to block all of them I don't think...which is why they don't show that.

Or the fact that during the JL fight, Supes can keep up with Flash. She IS extremely fast but not Flash fast, and not Superman fast so in reality IF Superman moves at TOP speed, can she ever have a chance in a fight?

Supes moves either AS fast or almost as fast ( we shall see who wins the race ) as Flash AND he can withstand the impact, which Flash can not.

Imagine the impact devastation of a 200lb object traveling at tremendous speed. Forget speed of light stuff, just re-entry speed of 17,000mph.!

Be glad he's a good guy and only head-butted her !

 

[Flemm]

If Wonder Woman is just as powerful as Superman then why does she need those gauntlets? Or the sword? Or the shield? Or the lasso? Wouldn't her super-strength/speed be enough?

This sort of thing doesn't matter.

Fans can debate that stuff, but the movies themselves need to have more important things in mind.

These movies make a lot of amateurish mistakes, the kind that shouldn't be made in movies with this type of budget.

They remind me of the Star Wars prequels in that regard.

Fans always complain about critics being biased, but the real reason critics don't like these movies has to do with glaring problems anyone can see, if we stop making excuses for them.

 

[Skrilla31]

This sort of thing doesn't matter.

You're right it doesn't matter, but it does suggest that maybe she isn't as strong as Superman.

 

[valmont]

Shhhh ! Don't mention that.

Superman could pick up a handful of pebbles and throw them at WW faster than a bullet, she would not be able to block all of them I don't think...which is why they don't show that.

Or the fact that during the JL fight, Supes can keep up with Flash. She IS extremely fast but not Flash fast, and not Superman fast so in reality IF Superman moves at TOP speed, can she ever have a chance in a fight?

Supes moves either AS fast or almost as fast ( we shall see who wins the race ) as Flash AND he can withstand the impact, which Flash can not.

Imagine the impact devastation of a 200lb object traveling at tremendous speed. Forget speed of light stuff, just re-entry speed of 17,000mph.!

Be glad he's a good guy and only head-butted her !

Yeah, that's precisely what pisses me off, that it would be so easy for him to kill her. Take a look at the JL Mortal fight, she might not be as strong, fast or whatever, but no way he would beat her easily. That makes things much more interesting to me.

At least Wonder Woman fans don't need to make petitions to save our character