Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - Part 18

[Roose Bolton]

Get hype.

 

[Iceman]

Euron [blackout]has Pyat Pree and the warlocks of Qarth as his slaves, he wants to conquer all of Westeros, sets out to destroy Oldtown and much of the Reach, schemes to steal to Dany's dragons for himself and take her on as a sex slave/bride, and is hinted in the prophecies throughout the novels as being near Satanic and the single greatest threat to Dany.[/blackout]

Victarion [blackout]invades the entire south-western coast of Westeros along the Shield Isles, and afterwards takes the Iron Fleet of 100 or so ships across the Narrow Sea to find Dany, marry her, and thrn bind her dragons to him via a magical Valyrian horn. Along the way he finds a Red Priest who heals him and potentially makes him an undead R'hllor powered killing machine dead set on destroying Daenerys' enemies as they surround her city, as well as bringing her ships to take her and her army back to Westeros. [/blackout]

Oh thanks.

So did I read right that these guys might get cut out of the TV show? Seems strange especially for Victarion. This will likely be a stupid question lol but are

Spoiler

Victarion's ships the way Dany is expected to get her armies across the Narrow Sea in the books?

...

You must be pissed off/disappointed?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yeah, though there's an offhand mention in season 4 by Daario saying he procured Dany a fleet of ships, so some theorize that means the Iron Fleet has been cut.

And right now there has been absolutely no casting news about anything to do with the Greyjoys, or the Golden Company for that matter, whom are another important faction in the books. I mean, it's possible that maybe they've been delayed until later on in the season or even saved until next season, but I doubt it. The only new faction they've announced is the Martells.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, though there's an offhand mention in season 4 by Daario saying he procured Dany a fleet of ships, so some theorize that means the Iron Fleet has been cut.

Hmmm, doesn't sound quite as interesting but I guess they know what they're doing.

And right now there has been absolutely no casting news about anything to do with the Greyjoys, or the Golden Company for that matter, whom are another important faction in the books. I mean, it's possible that maybe they've been delayed until later on in the season or even saved until next season, but I doubt it. The only new faction they've announced is the Martells.

How have fans taken it generally/or how do you think they'll take it if it gets confirmed? Were you ok with it? I mean the showrunners have earned the right for people to have faith in them but I was definitely surprised after reading other people talk about them all this time. Anyway I need to start reading faster and thank **** they didn't cut Oberyn Martell!

 

[Roose Bolton]

At the end of the day I think Game of Thrones is Dave and Dan's show, and while I don't think that they're by themselves as talented as GRRM, I think that the show itself works as a decent glimpse of Westeros.

Am I disappointed that they're cutting (in my opinion) two of the better characters in the series? Yes, of course I am, and I know a lot of book fans are as well.I wanted the show to remain as a faithful adaptation of the books right up until the end, but instead they're going off course with season 5, so that's a major letdown. But I still have the books and the 4 season of a great adaptation, so I'm not foaming at the mouth or anything.

I suspect that fans will be angry and disappointed, but there won't be riots in the streets or anything. No use crying over spilled milk. I think fans are more pissed off that they haven't even finished adapting book 3 yet despite it being 5 seasons in.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I want to read ahead now (halfway through book 2) as every new character that comes up in the books, it's very difficult for me to imagine them any way other than the way they look in the show. I kind of want to let myself imagine it 1st and then see what the show gives me.

 

[Victarion]

Oh thanks.

So did I read right that these guys might get cut out of the TV show? Seems strange especially for Victarion. This will likely be a stupid question lol but are

Spoiler

Victarion's ships the way Dany is expected to get her armies across the Narrow Sea in the books?

You must be pissed off/disappointed?

I look at it as a give and take sort of thing. On the one hand, cuts mean that piece of storyline probably won't be spoiled when the show overtakes the books. This also will let the showrunners focus more on what's going on in Dorne. I'm a bit disappointed that Euron's likely been cut, but if we get good performances from Doran and the High Sparrow, I don't really mind the change.

 

[Iceman]

I look at it as a give and take sort of thing. On the one hand, cuts mean that piece of storyline probably won't be spoiled when the show overtakes the books. This also will let the showrunners focus more on what's going on in Dorne. I'm a bit disappointed that Euron's likely been cut, but if we get good performances from Doran and the High Sparrow, I don't really mind the change.

Cool. Does it also mean that those characters can't have a huge influence in the endgame of the books? Otherwise they probably would have chosen to include them after talking to GRRM about how he intends to end the books. Unless they both end differently I guess with the show finishing first.

 

[Victarion]

Cool. Does it also mean that those characters can't have a huge influence in the endgame of the books? Otherwise they probably would have chosen to include them after talking to GRRM about how he intends to end the books. Unless they both end differently I guess with the show finishing first.

Someone, either George or D&D, have reiterated that the books are the books, and the show is the show. Since D&D only have thirty hours left to wrap up the series, I think they have to pick storylines that're likely to keep viewers interested or that they're comfortable with. Oberyn was quite popular, so it looks like Dorne is getting a bigger role. Cersei is better written in the show than the books, I think, and their decision to pick up the plotline of the High Sparrow seems to reflect their strengths as writers. Plus there's the White Walker leader, his twelve followers, Bloodraven and the children of the forest. It seems like they're going to narrow the scope, maybe shifting around some roles from what we'll see in the books to make a tighter product.

 

[KevanG]

I'm just hoping the end of the show is significantly different than the books so there won't be big spoilers for when the books do finish.

 

[Iceman]

Someone, either George or D&D, have reiterated that the books are the books, and the show is the show. Since D&D only have thirty hours left to wrap up the series, I think they have to pick storylines that're likely to keep viewers interested or that they're comfortable with. Oberyn was quite popular, so it looks like Dorne is getting a bigger role. Cersei is better written in the show than the books, I think, and their decision to pick up the plotline of the High Sparrow seems to reflect their strengths as writers. Plus there's the White Walker leader, his twelve followers, Bloodraven and the children of the forest. It seems like they're going to narrow the scope, maybe shifting around some roles from what we'll see in the books to make a tighter product.

At least it sounds like both are in good hands and even if they both end differently, that's not too much of a problem if both endings work well. Could be interesting to have both alternatives.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The only problems I should think, would be whether or not D&D are capable of coming up with completely original stuff that works as well as the source material. The Grey Worm love story or Yara Greyjoy and the 50 best killers of the Iron Islands getting defeated by a couple of dogs doesn't exactly set a great example.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

The only problems I should think, would be whether or not D&D are capable of coming up with completely original stuff that works as well as the source material. The Grey Worm love story or Yara Greyjoy and the 50 best killers of the Iron Islands getting defeated by a couple of dogs doesn't exactly set a great example.

To counter that, there's the Arya/Tywin scenes in S2, Cersei/Tywin one this season and Oberyn/Cersei as well. That said, I wasn't terribly impressed with Jon going after the NW deserters, so yeah, they're a bit hit and miss.

 

[Victarion]

Oh hey! What's going on in this threa--

 

[Roose Bolton]

To counter that, there's the Arya/Tywin scenes in S2, Cersei/Tywin one this season and Oberyn/Cersei as well. That said, I wasn't terribly impressed with Jon going after the NW deserters, so yeah, they're a bit hit and miss.

Arya/Tywin was good, though the Cersei/Tywin scene is majorly flawed and falls apart in the face of the show's internal logic. I mean, Cersei really was in no position at all to threaten Tywin when you consider the facts. If she did come out and reveal her affair with Jaime, then Tywin could (and would have) basically said "Oh yeah? Well fine, me and my armies will leave tomorrow and you can stay in the capitol surrounded by Tyrells and a son that is openly a bastard with no claim. Oh and I'm taking Tyrion with me, because he wouldn't have committed regicide by killing Joffrey."

She had no power at all in that scene and her threats were nonsensical. There's a few other scenes like that throughout where they try stuff like that and more often than not they only work if you divorce the rest of the show.

 

[Iceman]

Isn't Tywin more concerned about his family name above all that? (I guess it's a bit different if he thinks he has no proper heirs at all) Even if everyone suspects the affair it isn't the same as one of the perpetrators admitting it openly and permanently disgracing their house. I think it's an effective threat and that family "secrets" are one of the only ways you can threaten Tywin but that his response if he believed there was actually any chance in her doing so would be to arrange for her to be subtly got rid off before she could do it and she would know that that was inevitable. But then she's desperate now and searching for any way to get even a small temporary (false) victory over him even if both don't believe the threat to be actually credible as it at least means he can't totally relax now knowing that she'd considered it and was getting desperate (mad) and more willing to take risks. But anyway I certainly could have lived without that scene.

The other original stuff by D&D in this last season didn't come off well at all and at the time felt like crappy filler in an attempt to stretch the show out. Now that we are expecting a sooner end to the show it seems even more wasteful with the limited time they have left. The stuff like Arya Tywin was great though and that and many smaller original touches in the early seasons felt like they were in the spirit of the books.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The point is, he wouldn't have even tolerated that ****. He would have threatened her right back with the possibility of her hated younger brother going free and her only remaining son being left at the whims of the Tyrells. And with his poker face she would have been the one cowed, for all Cersei's flaws she isn't heartless and in this case it makes her in a weaker position.

Her even attempting that would likely result in some major backlash from Tywin, either through some form of imprisonment or immediate assassination. Maybe you could argue that it was a false victory and that Tywin was secretly planning to do away with her, but theres nothing really in that scene or the scene afterwards to imply that. It just wasn't properly thought out beyond the moment, and when it comes to a series as intricate as this, it seems lazy.

 

[Sawyer]

Mark Gatiss Returning in S5

 

[KevanG]

I get that Cersei thinks she's smarter than everyone else and likes to surround herself with Yes men and idiots who agree with her but she just makes constant rapid fire **** ups non-stop in the last two books. Even Littlefinger can barely keep up with her pulling this crap and he's crazy good at that.

Jamie abandoned her to go run off with Brienne and the rest of her family hates her for being such a royal **** while the other half of the royal family is just watching her implode under her idiocy. The church has just obliterated what little remained of her reputation and the Iron Bank is basically going to help whoever takes her out of power. On top of all that the peasants are now armed and willing to defend themselves against everyones BS thanks to her.

Is she just completely and utterly screwed in every single way or am I missing something?

 

[iamlegend]

Arya/Tywin was good, though the Cersei/Tywin scene is majorly flawed and falls apart in the face of the show's internal logic. I mean, Cersei really was in no position at all to threaten Tywin when you consider the facts. If she did come out and reveal her affair with Jaime, then Tywin could (and would have) basically said "Oh yeah? Well fine, me and my armies will leave tomorrow and you can stay in the capitol surrounded by Tyrells and a son that is openly a bastard with no claim. Oh and I'm taking Tyrion with me, because he wouldn't have committed regicide by killing Joffrey."

She had no power at all in that scene and her threats were nonsensical. There's a few other scenes like that throughout where they try stuff like that and more often than not they only work if you divorce the rest of the show.

I wholeheartedly disagree. All Tywin cares about is the Lannister name, the Lannister legacy. And absolutely no part of him would ever trust it to Tyrion. If Cersei reveals this, Tywin's line of Lannister could quite possibly go extinct. People would call for the heads of Cersei and Jaime, certainly, and the kids would be viewed as little more than monsters. Tywin's entire family, everything he'd done... it'd be erased. Gone. Being that Cersei has proven to the viewer before that she'd be willing to die (and take her children with her) rather than seek an alternative...

Couple that with the fact that uber-denial Tywin had such a bombshell dropped on him in her admission that she'd copulated with Jaime... and his reaction is pretty much spot on. I mean, the guy just had it confirmed that his oldest son had been screwing his oldest daughter. For years. He's not exactly going to be quick with the retort.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Even if he didn't trust Tyrion he could still throw that in her face and not actually utilise Tyrion, or even better he could do it only to kill Tyrion later on when it suited him, he has Kevan and Kevan's sons to continue the family name after he dies. But beyond that, he made no attempt against her at all. In fact he goes up to his tower and he ****s Shae to show how concerned he is by the whole thing. The way they presented it was as if he was beaten, when his ruthless nature would have led him to find a way to get rid of Cersei and her threats permenantly and protect that family name.

Also, let's look at the show's internal continuity. Three episodes before that scene we had the Tywin/Jaime scene for Tyrion's trial where he pretty much implies to Jaime that he knows the kids are his. So, they're not even being consistent with his character.

 

[iamlegend]

Even if he didn't trust Tyrion he could still throw that in her face and not actually utilise Tyrion, or even better he could do it only to kill Tyrion later on when it suited him, he has Kevan and Kevan's sons to continue the family name after he dies. But beyond that, he made no attempt against her at all. In fact he goes up to his tower and he ****s Shae to show how concerned he is by the whole thing. The way they presented it was as if he was beaten, when his ruthless nature would have led him to find a way to get rid of Cersei and her threats permenantly and protect that family name.

Also, let's look at the show's internal continuity. Three episodes before that scene we had the Tywin/Jaime scene for Tyrion's trial where he pretty much implies to Jaime that he knows the kids are his. So, they're not even being consistent with his character.

The guy's ruthless, but he's not a supercomputer. Expecting him to just spin around with a retort isn't fair.

Plus, you're making it seem like the prospect of killing Cersei would come so easy to him. It's still his golden daughter. He'd happily ship her off to the Tyrells. Killing her himself, or via scheme? Another matter entirely. Further, what makes Tywin DIFFERENT from his daughter - whereas she's quick to try to eliminate anyone who disagrees with her (often sloppily and recklessly), he's plotter.

Honestly, given the complexity of the issue, it makes sense that he had to blow off some steam. It gave more credence to the Shae interlude than the book did. In print the dude was just a great big hypocrite.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I don't believe Tywin is capable of genuine human relationships post-Joanna, and he's never really given any indication that he sees Cersei as anything more than a means to either further his connections with other houses and increase his own power. Jaime's the golden child, but even then, when stopped being malleable he was swiftly disowned. The man is damned near a sociopath and he's supposed to be hypocrite. They've made it clear in the books that he doesn't have proper human connections anymore save with Kevan who was the biggest butt monkey in the world. Cersei may be his daughter, but those blood ties would mean nothing to him compared to the security of his thousand year dynasty he was plotting.

And Cersei's problem isn't that she's too brutal, it's that she lacks the intelligence to make use of that cold pragmatism. Also she's flat out insane.

 

[KevanG]

I don't believe Tywin is capable of genuine human relationships post-Joanna, and he's never really given any indication that he sees Cersei as anything more than a means to either further his connections with other houses and increase his own power. Jaime's the golden child, but even then, when stopped being malleable he was swiftly disowned. The man is damned near a sociopath and he's supposed to be hypocrite. They've made it clear in the books that he doesn't have proper human connections anymore save with Kevan who was the biggest butt monkey in the world. Cersei may be his daughter, but those blood ties would mean nothing to him compared to the security of his thousand year dynasty he was plotting.

Hey!

Oh wait. Yeah well, still not happy about what happens to him at the end of the last book but that was crazy awesome none the less.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Just imagine Conlith Hill delivering those lines...