Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - Part 19

[Infinity9999x]

they are combining a character with another in order to make it more meaningful. It's a TV adaptation. Had to happen. The problem is everyone jumping the gun before the payoff even happens.

That's just my point, I'm going to wait and see how this informs their adaptation of Sansa. However, at this point, I don't really see how it adds to her character, or why it needed to be done. It didn't come off as more meaningful, it just seemed like cheap shock value. Similar to what they did with Jamie and Cersei. I could very well be wrong, but that's just my reaction as of now.

Sansa has been the whipping girl of GoT since the very beginning. Are you people outraged because of the fact that somebody was raped or b/c it was Sansa? If it's the latter, then you really shouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't hold out for any kind of revenge at her hands. If anything happens to Ramsay, I think it'll be Stannis, Theon, or somebody out of left field before Sansa. Her character exists to have bad things happen to her. I've also not seen this character growth you mentioned. That snarky conversation with Ramsay's ****e? I could actually see her getting killed accidentally if/when Stannis storms Winterfell. Heck, it'd finally put her out of her misery and the show would have to find a new weekly victim.

Oh, I have no problem with the show including acts of rape, in fact I believe I answer that very question you're asking in the post you quoted, you just left that part out. No, as I said before, this is based off Medieval Europe, which was an incredibly brutal world. Rape and torture were commonplace. It's all about the story for me. And as of now, I'm not sure why this act was included, and how it adds anything to Sansa's story. I'm going to wait and see, but as of now it just seems to be gratuitous. Adding violence simply for the sake of violence is cheap storytelling.

And I said we were already seeing Sansa's transition. She's not there yet, but she's growing towards that point, or at least seems to be.

 

[Avatar Roni]

D&D should switch things up and have a male character get raped.

That way, a female character's arc could progress.

They have.... Has everyone forgot Gentry being rapped by Melisandra?? I did not hear any uproar over that. It was a tough scene but if it bothers you that much don't watch the show and move on.

 

[Marvolo]

I think it's more of a question of "Why did the creators feel the need to have this event happen to Sansa?" Again, I don't mind changes to the source material if I think they stay true to the spirit of the characters. I also don't have an issue in general with a show's violent nature. This is based off Medieval Europe, and that was a brutal world. Rape, torture all of that and more occurred on a daily basis. If anyone thinks the show is intense, just read some history books. It's not overdoing it.

In this case, it's not just the violence, it's the fact that they're doing it to a character that hasn't had anything like that happen to them in the books, and I generally don't approve of having a character go through a MAJOR traumatic event without a reason to. What will it add to Sansa character? Why did it need to be added? How will it advance her arc?

These are the questions I wonder. And as of now, I can't really see any. I don't see the need to also have her go through this. She's already experienced awful things and started to grow stronger because of it, this wasn't needed to advance that...I just don't see the point, so it's coming off as cheap shock value.

It's not enough to get me to stop watching the show, but it is very disappointing.

Here is what Dan said about why they wsent Sansa to Winterfell:

“We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”

So they liked the supblot with Jeyne but didnt have a Jeyne so to kill two birds with one stone they sent Sansa to winterfell which gave her more to do and it allowed them to use Jeyne's subplot in the process.

Hold on to your butts people, cause if they stay true to Jeyne's subplot then Sansa's pain may not be over yet.

 

[Victarion]

Talking purely about the scene in question and not how it relates the characters, it was probably more tastefully done than a lot of the stuff we've seen. We saw nothing, Sophie Turner wasn't shown nude or anything like that, there was no on-screen sex or sexual violence visually depicted. I have to wonder if that wasn't Sansa, would it have been worse?

Either way, Sansa or Jeyne, I hated Littlefinger all the same.

 

[Reek]

I'm done watching the show. I never said I was done talking to you. But maybe that's a good idea too.

*ignore*

dont be so hasty. im only kidding around.

 

[Reek]

Either way, Sansa or Jeyne, I hated Littlefinger all the same.

I can't hate Littlefinger... it's against my nature.

All these old people in Winterfell... have more screen time than the Greyjoys

 

[dude stannis]

Honestly there's a sense of brutality fatigue, Sansa has been the whippin' boy of the show. But I knew it was coming and I can put it behind me now.

She's a big guy!

FOR YOU!

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866862/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

scroll down the cast list...

i know it's imdb but still...

 

[dude stannis]

Richard Brake as the Night's King? That's like getting Steve Buscemi as Emperor Palpatine and Vlad the Impaler. The guy credited above Roose Bolton? Awesome if true.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Richard Brake holds the illustrious position of being the guy who killed the family of both Bruce Wayne AND Hannibal Lecter.

 

[Reek]

*ignored*

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

Richard Brake as the Night's King? That's like getting Steve Buscemi as Emperor Palpatine and Vlad the Impaler. The guy credited above Roose Bolton? Awesome if true.

balon, yara, and benjen are penciled in to appear as well. if all of that rings true, that might be the biggest GoT episode yet.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Here is what Dan said about why they wsent Sansa to Winterfell:



So they liked the supblot with Jeyne but didnt have a Jeyne so to kill two birds with one stone they sent Sansa to winterfell which gave her more to do and it allowed them to use Jeyne's subplot in the process.

Hold on to your butts people, cause if they stay true to Jeyne's subplot then Sansa's pain may not be over yet.

Yeah I read that. But again, I have an issue with giving an existing character a subplot that includes drastic life altering events...unless they have a plan for how said event informs and changes that character.

And just to be clear, I'm very aware that we still have more episodes in this season. So I'm waiting to see how it plays out. My initial reaction is that it comes off as somewhat hollow shock value, but that could very well be wrong. However, if show Sansa ends up having a similar character arc to book Sansa, and this event doesn't really change the trajectory of her character, then this event was just that; hollow shock value. And that's not good story telling.

And I think that's what has most people annoyed at this change. Not the fact that the show included rape, as the meme Reek posted above implies, but the feeling that, as of now it rings as needles shock for the sake of shock. That may definitely be untrue, and they may use this event as a way to build an interesting arc to Sansa that's unique to the show. And that's what I hope happens...but as of now, I can understand why people are upset about it.

 

[Roose Bolton]

*ignored*

 

[Loki882]

That's just my point, I'm going to wait and see how this informs their adaptation of Sansa. However, at this point, I don't really see how it adds to her character, or why it needed to be done. It didn't come off as more meaningful, it just seemed like cheap shock value. Similar to what they did with Jamie and Cersei. I could very well be wrong, but that's just my reaction as of now.


Oh, I have no problem with the show including acts of rape, in fact I believe I answer that very question you're asking in the post you quoted, you just left that part out. No, as I said before, this is based off Medieval Europe, which was an incredibly brutal world. Rape and torture were commonplace. It's all about the story for me. And as of now, I'm not sure why this act was included, and how it adds anything to Sansa's story. I'm going to wait and see, but as of now it just seems to be gratuitous. Adding violence simply for the sake of violence is cheap storytelling.

And I said we were already seeing Sansa's transition. She's not there yet, but she's growing towards that point, or at least seems to be.

I also don't really like this idea that the writers seem to have that these characters are so interchangeable that you can simply cut and past them. Sansa is NOT Jeyne Pool. Her character is very different, has a very different purpose, and was on a very different journey. And it's not even just her. They've done essentially the same thing to Ellaria Sands, who is now the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of how she is in the book, and much lamer to boot.

Another issue that that this plot makes little sense. The justification for her even agreeing to this in the first place just isn't believable/flesh enough for me and LF's plan seems really vague. And as much as I don't think that this subplot was needed in the book either, Martin at least gave us some direct evidence that made it semi-relevant. Here, they seem to have cut out most of the (interesting) political stuff that made the Jeyne thing even semi-relevant. So they cut out the interesting stuff, but kept the rape, rriigghht.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah I read that. But again, I have an issue with giving an existing character a subplot that includes drastic life altering events...unless they have a plan for how said event informs and changes that character.

And just to be clear, I'm very aware that we still have more episodes in this season. So I'm waiting to see how it plays out. My initial reaction is that it comes off as somewhat hollow shock value, but that could very well be wrong. However, if show Sansa ends up having a similar character arc to book Sansa, and this event doesn't really change the trajectory of her character, then this event was just that; hollow shock value. And that's not good story telling.

And I think that's what has most people annoyed at this change. Not the fact that the show included rape, as the meme Reek posted above implies, but the feeling that, as of now it rings as needles shock for the sake of shock. That may definitely be untrue, and they may use this event as a way to build an interesting arc to Sansa that's unique to the show. And that's what I hope happens...but as of now, I can understand why people are upset about it.

I'm taking the writer's at their word that Sansa's story this season is about "taking control of her life" and "becoming stronger." Which is fine, I've got no issue with that at all. But the question that I keep returning to is, did they really HAVE to do this in order to get there? There was NO other way? I find that hard to believe, especially since you have a character who's entire story for 4+ seasons involves being repeatedly threatened, abused, tormented, and humiliated in various ways by a multitude of different characters. So if ALL of that wasn't enough to cause her to "seize control," then why am I supposed to by that this will either? Because there's a penis involved, because that's really lame.

 

[Loki882]

*ignored*

Way to miss the point completely. Nice job.

 

[Huddsy]

Way to miss the point completely. Nice job.

Yep.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, this has nothing to do with the shockingness of the scene and everything to do with the poor storyline choices of the producers. Nice strawman though.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

The part that pisses me off the most about that image is the fact that they call it "nonconsenual sex." It's ****ing rape. The fact that it's off-screen doesn't make any difference either.

 

[Marvolo]

The part that pisses me off the most about that image is the fact that they call it "nonconsenual sex." It's ****ing rape. The fact that it's off-screen doesn't make any difference either.

The brutality of it is obviously wrong, but the wedding night ritual is well known to Sansa and is custom and practically law in Westeros. So she agreed to have sex with Ramsay when she agreed to marry him. That's why some don't see it as rape.

I have to say that Sansa was foolish to assume that every man in westeros would behave like Tyrion did on their wedding night. And that's how it sort of plays. Naive Sansa.

I think this whole thing would have played better had Littlefinger and her discussed what would happen the night of the wedding. That way she could tell Littlefinger and the audience that she knows what will happen and it's a price she is willing to pay and pain she is willing to endure to get her revenge. That would have shifted the power somewhat to Sansa. She would be telling us that Ramsay can do his worst because she can take it and she will have her revenge.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

The brutality of it is obviously wrong, but the wedding night ritual is well known to Sansa and is custom and practically law in Westeros. So she agreed to have sex with Ramsay when she agreed to marry him. That's why some don't see it as rape.

The definition of rape is nonconseual sex. Using the latter is just blatantly offensive sugar-coating.

 

[Roose Bolton]

They've done essentially the same thing to Ellaria Sands, who is now the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of how she is in the book, and much lamer to boot.

I brought this up ages ago, how Ellaria in the books was such a kind and gentle person who abhorred the idea of vengeance and ending cycle of violence. Everyone seemed to think the change was good because "viewers want to see revenge" or "Being nonviolent doesn't work for the screen."

 

[Marvolo]

Dorne in general is pretty lame atm. Major letdown.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think it speaks to what Loki was saying, that they've cut the interesting stuff in favor of something more superficial. The audience has no reason to like the Martells because only one of the five doesn't want to kill children and demand bloody vengeance, and that goes back to their choice to focus on Ellaria and the Sand Snakes over Arianne.

Those other characters were never intended to be anything other than cool background figures that add more colour to the setting, whereas Arianne had a genuine and emotional arc that connected in with her relationship with her father. She was the one our view of the Martells came from, and we've kind of lost that level of sympathy for them by making it all about Sand Snakes.