Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Mjolnir Reborn]

So? Ned Stark was the main character in Season 1. One, it was foreshadowed, would beat Jaime Lannister in a duel and get justice for Bran. Robb Stark was heavily foreshadowed to kill Joffrey (more so in the book where they're presented as rivals of about the same age, but still in the show as well). Arya also had Joffrey on her "list," but he was poisoned by none of the Starks and Tyrion got the blame while he was innocent, robbing Joffrey's death of feeling like a huge W. The show is predicated on not giving you the traditional expected fantasy ending.

I really cannot fathom how Jon Snow not having a sword fight with the Night King is a deal breaker for so many. I actually was thrilled it went with something way more unexpected (now killing the Night King being an instant KO for all white walkers is another matter, but we knew that was coming since Season 7).

Where is it foreshadowed that Robb would kill Joffrey? Having them as same age rivals during a few days certainly doesn't foreshadow something so specific. I don't see anything foreshadowing Ned beating Jaime either, especially not in the books where Jaime is described as a vastly superior fighter. Arya's list isn't foreshadowing either, it's just the character expressing her hate and desire and not any inevitable conclusion.

Red Wedding is foreshadowed in the books, which is done both in the House of the Undying and by Patchface on Dragonstone. The same thing with Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son in a few different places. That's proper foreshadowing with specific events being hinted at in ways that are at least clear after the fact and often clear enough for there to be a chance of connecting the dots beforehand.

Azor Ahai is one of those strongly foreshadowing things that people figured what it meant, but had to speculate who it was as several characters fit the description. It's not some vague thing like that a character wants to get revenge on someone else, it's a clear prophecy and one of those that has been seen like a Chekov's Gun because it has tangible traces in what's happening. Just like the Valonqar prophecy that has everything fulfilled in the show, except the final piece.

I don't see it as strange that people are upset that all that build up was discarded. Martin hasn't played bait and switch with such things, he's written them cleverly enough for them not to be obvious so events are still exciting despite foreshadowing. That of course doesn't mean that everyone has to agree, but I certainly think it's easy to understand.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Guys, we still have 3 episodes left. Maybe we just wait and see... maybe things will happen that will make the whole furore look non-essential.

 

[Rocco]

Where is it foreshadowed that Robb would kill Joffrey? Having them as same age rivals during a few days certainly doesn't foreshadow something so specific. I don't see anything foreshadowing Ned beating Jaime either, especially not in the books where Jaime is described as a vastly superior fighter. Arya's list isn't foreshadowing either, it's just the character expressing her hate and desire and not any inevitable conclusion.

Red Wedding is foreshadowed in the books, which is done both in the House of the Undying and by Patchface on Dragonstone. The same thing with Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son in a few different places. That's proper foreshadowing with specific events being hinted at in ways that are at least clear after the fact and often clear enough for there to be a chance of connecting the dots beforehand.

Azor Ahai is one of those strongly foreshadowing things that people figured what it meant, but had to speculate who it was as several characters fit the description. It's not some vague thing like that a character wants to get revenge on someone else, it's a clear prophecy and one of those that has been seen like a Chekov's Gun because it has tangible traces in what's happening. Just like the Valonqar prophecy that has everything fulfilled in the show, except the final piece.

I don't see it as strange that people are upset that all that build up was discarded. Martin hasn't played bait and switch with such things, he's written them cleverly enough for them not to be obvious so events are still exciting despite foreshadowing. That of course doesn't mean that everyone has to agree, but I certainly think it's easy to understand.

Jon Snow is one of my favorite characters. I too wanted him to fight and kill the night king.
I still wish he would have. However having said that, what they did worked because they tied it back to previous seasons including season 3. They wouldn't have done it otherwise. See we ASSUMED, THOUGHT, and DEMANDED that Jon fight and kill the night king. That is always unwise. There is no such thing as deserve and having a right. We're not telling the story, the story tellers are. We're just along for the ride, always were. We were wrong, it happens. Not every prediction of ours was always going to come to fruition. We also should't assume George is going to have Jon kill the white walkers in the books.
There's nothing predicting specifically that Jon himself was/will kill the white walkers for good in a sword fight on the show or the books. Quite frankly until we get book 6 and 7, if we do, they're irrelevant. Also, many could have predicted falsely Robb killing Joffrey.
Robb - "I'll kill them all."
Catelyn - "You will"
Joffrey to Sansa - "Maybe I'll give you Robb's head."
Sansa - "Or he'll give me yours."
And nope didn't happen unfortunately, but would have been ****ing awesome though. It's what we WANTED. Hell it's what I wanted. We don't always get what we want. Story tellers can also intentionally make you think they're foreshadowing one thing and boom nope it was really this all along. It's our fault for demanding they give us what we thought, assumed, and demanded or else we'll be pissed. We need to break this habit. It's not easy I know but it's necessary. Arya killing the night king saved the living and set up the rest of the finale, followed through on Melisandre's prediction, and payed off Arya's training as a stealthy assassin. Quite frankly I predicted it'd be Jon and/or Arya anyway so looking back on it it wasn't that much of a shock. If it was Varys or Missandei then yeah I'd call bull**** then lol. The white walkers were in the story in the pilot and lasted until episode 3 of the six episode final season. Is that really too soon? I wanted two battles in Westeros with them too but oh well. (shrugs) They and Cersei were never going to win, that wouldn't be bittersweet.

 

[Sithborg]

"Prophecies are bull****" is something that I feel is well within the guidance of the series.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Jon Snow is one of my favorite characters. I too wanted him to fight and kill the night king.
I still wish he would have. However having said that, what they did worked because they tied it back to previous seasons including season 3. They wouldn't have done it otherwise. See we ASSUMED, THOUGHT, and DEMANDED that Jon fight and kill the night king. That is always unwise. There is no such thing as deserve and having a right. We're not telling the story, the story tellers are. We're just along for the ride, always were. We were wrong, it happens. Not every prediction of ours was always going to come to fruition. We also should't assume George is going to have Jon kill the white walkers in the books.
There's nothing predicting specifically that Jon himself was/will kill the white walkers for good in a sword fight on the show or the books. Quite frankly until we get book 6 and 7, if we do, they're irrelevant. Also, many could have predicted falsely Robb killing Joffrey.
Robb - "I'll kill them all."
Catelyn - "You will"
Joffrey to Sansa - "Maybe I'll give you Robb's head."
Sansa - "Or he'll give me yours."
And nope didn't happen unfortunately, but would have been ****ing awesome though. It's what we WANTED. Hell it's what I wanted. We don't always get what we want. Story tellers can also intentionally make you think they're foreshadowing one thing and boom nope it was really this all along. It's our fault for demanding they give us what we thought, assumed, and demanded or else we'll be pissed. We need to break this habit. It's not easy I know but it's necessary. Arya killing the night king saved the living and set up the rest of the finale, followed through on Melisandre's prediction, and payed off Arya's training as a stealthy assassin. Quite frankly I predicted it'd be Jon and/or Arya anyway so looking back on it it wasn't that much of a shock. If it was Varys or Missandei then yeah I'd call bull**** then lol. The white walkers were in the story in the pilot and lasted until episode 3 of the six episode final season. Is that really too soon? I wanted two battles in Westeros with them too but oh well. (shrugs) They and Cersei were never going to win, that wouldn't be bittersweet.

I wasn't one of those that was sure Jon was going to do it (hence why I didn't write the point of view in first person), but I want to hear how this fits into the Azor Ahai thing that has given the story it's very name.

 

[Rocco]

I wasn't one of those that was sure Jon was going to do it (hence why I didn't write the point of view in first person), but I want to hear how this fits into the Azor Ahai thing that has given the story it's very name.

That's fair. It appears it really just boiled down to Jon rallying the living to fight the dead and white walkers, nothing more nothing less. Jon and Dany did their part in the battle for the living/dawn. I expect something similar in book 6 and 7 but we'll see.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

"Prophecies are bull****" is something that I feel is well within the guidance of the series.

Really? Do you have any examples of why you feel that? I'd say that prophecies in this story are very consistently being fulfilled, at least partially as the story hasn't come long enough to conclude all of them (even Mirri Maz Duur's poetic way of saying "never" seems to have turned out prophetic as those things have started happening). This goes especially for the books, which has more of them due to having time for more depth, but the show has generally followed the books well as far as they lasted in this regard. D&D has had some odd writing when they've stood entirely on their own so that's why I feel it will be interesting to hear how this is supposed to fit together.

And of course there's still some slim possibility that the next episode will either answer some questions, or change which questions are asking.

 

[Rocco]

I wonder if George knows how the white walkers will be dealt with in the books and told D&D.

 

[MaceB]

Guys, we still have 3 episodes left. Maybe we just wait and see... maybe things will happen that will make the whole furore look non-essential.

I hope the writers bring clarity to this madness. If they don't, they've literally ruined the series. It's that bad. The audience deserves an explanation of what went so wrong. We deserve to know if we were lied to... or if this is another example of Melissandre being wrong. Is Jon the Prince who was promised? Is there more to the Lord of Light's work after the Night King is gone? Is the Lord of Light even the one responsible for bringing Jon back? Why? I hope they explain it... because if these plot lines go by the wayside while we completely move to Cersei... then there's no recovering. As it is right now, the Night King plot line... the central plot line of the whole show... is a complete and total waste.

 

[Rocco]

I hope the writers bring clarity to this madness. If they don't, they've literally ruined the series. It's that bad. The audience deserves an explanation of what went so wrong. We deserve to know if we were lied to... or if this is another example of Melissandre being wrong. Is Jon the Prince who was promised? Is there more to the Lord of Light's work after the Night King is gone? Is the Lord of Light even the one responsible for bringing Jon back? Why? I hope they explain it... because if these plot lines go by the wayside while we completely move to Cersei... then there's no recovering. As it is right now, the Night King plot line... the central plot line of the whole show... is a complete and total waste.

What did you expect was going to happen with the night king and white walkers? They couldn't and weren't going to win ultimately. Melisandre never predicted Jon having a sword fight with and killing the night king. We and so many assumed that, understandably so, but it's not that surprising it didn't happen really. It was never the central plot or only plot. It was resolved three episodes into the final 6 episode season. Is it really that big of a deal? Is that really too soon? Episode would have really been better for them to be defeated by Jon or Arya?

 

[MaceB]

What did you expect was going to happen with the night king and white walkers? They could't and weren't going to win ultimately. Melisandre never predicted Jon fighting and killing the night king. We and so many assumed that, understandably so, but it's not that surprising really.

I expected Jon would kill the Night King and end the Long Night, as the Prince that was Promised was foretold to do. Why was Jon brought back if not for that? Assembling an army that failed without any explanation simply does not cut it. Having his teenage sister resolve his conflict for him in a matter of seconds is unacceptable.

Melissandre said that the Prince who was promised would pull a sword, and that sword would be Lightbringer. Nope... scratch that. Let's just have him assemble some armies by the hair of his chinny chin chin... which fails miserably, but ehh... that's good enough. Prophecy fulfilled. No.

 

[Rocco]

I expected Jon would kill the Night King and end the Long Night, as the Prince that was Promised was foretold to do. Why was Jon brought back if not for that? Assembling an army that failed without any explanation simply does not cut it. Having his teenage sister resolve his conflict for him in a matter of seconds is unacceptable.

He organized the living that fought the dead and it ultimately resulted in the end of the long night. We simply wrongly assumed that meant killing the night king himself. It's not the first time us fans were wrong and misinterpreted something and won't be the last my friend. It happens. You really expect George to have Jon kill all the white walkers? LOL if so then you and others are in for a major disappointment. We have no right to demand anything or get upset if we predict something incorrectly. They're not obligated to give us what we want. He was brought back just to kill the main supernatural antagonist? We fans lack so much imagination lol. Arya almost failed but was fortunate due to her specific skills and what Melisandre predicted back in season 3. All of us forgot about it and overlooked it. All our focus were on Jon and Dany foolishly.

 

[Sithborg]

The "chosen one" trope is the exact fantasy trope that I would imagine that this series would like to eschew.

And really, based on what we have seen it is clear why Jon would be brought back. If Jon had not come back, Arya would not have returned north, instead continuing on to King's Landing to kill Cersei.

And really, based on the show, if you were really believing that everything Melisandre was saying as truth, you are gullible. She has been proven to be more wrong than right over the series.

 

[MaceB]

He organized the living that fought the dead and it ultimately resulted in the end of the long night. We simply wrongly assumed that meant killing the night king himself. It's not the first time us fans were wrong and misinterpreted something and won't be the last my friend. It happens. You really expect George to have Jon kill all the white walkers? LOL if so then you and others are in for a major disappointment. We have no right to demand anything or get upset if we predict something incorrectly. They're not obligated to give us what we want. He was brought back just to kill the main supernatural antagonist? We fans lack so much imagination lol.

It didn't though at all. Arya resulted in the end of the Long Night, not Jon. The army was failing miserably.

I expected jon to kill the Night King, which would kill the other white walkers, yes. It happened for Arya, and it would have been 10 times more effective with Jon.

This is not my fan theory... this is specifically what the show told us would happen. It's not about what I want... it's about fulfilling the goal posts that the show set up for itself. I am judging it by its own standards.

He didn't kill the main supernatural antagonist... at all. If they had wanted to go that way, they could have easily had Jon and Arya team up. But instead, they sidelined Jon while his teenage sister did it for him with ease. There has to be a reason why that is. If there isn't, then literally.... the whole Night King story is a failure.

 

[MaceB]

The "chosen one" trope is the exact fantasy trope that I would imagine that this series would like to eschew.

And really, based on what we have seen it is clear why Jon would be brought back. If Jon had not come back, Arya would not have returned north, instead continuing on to King's Landing to kill Cersei.

And really, based on the show, if you were really believing that everything Melisandre was saying as truth, you are gullible. She has been proven to be more wrong than right over the series.

But we are not Stannis or the High Septin. We aren't characters in the show... we're the audience. And we know the Lord of Light is real. We've seen it. This isn't a case of us being false disciples of a religion... this is the audience following the breadcrumbs that the show specifically left out there for us to follow. And now I should be happy with the fact that they've been deceiving me this whole time? That they got me invested in a character based on a lie? Why should I care about a show when they can tell me something for 8 years, only to pull the rug out from under me at literally the last second? Why should I get invested in any characters? Why should I care at all? I've spent 8 years caring about Jon, only to find that he's a nincompoop.. a terrible strategist... and basically incompetent. His little sister could do in 10 seconds what he tried to do for 8 years.

Now, if the show's intention was to be like, "haha, you're just like Stannis! Don't you feel silly!" Well yeah I do. And just like Stannis, I'm rightly pissed off about it. How could I not be? I've been sold a bag full of promises only to have every single promise broken with no warning and no explanation at all. It's simply unacceptable. There's no reaction to have other than contempt at this point. They gave us a twist that does nothing to elevate the story...nothing.

 

[Rocco]

It didn't though at all. Arya resulted in the end of the Long Night, not Jon. The army was failing miserably.

I expected jon to kill the Night King, which would kill the other white walkers, yes. It happened for Arya, and it would have been 10 times more effective with Jon.

This is not my fan theory... this is specifically what the show told us would happen. It's not about what I want... it's about fulfilling the goal posts that the show set up for itself. I am judging it by its own standards.

He didn't kill the main supernatural antagonist... at all. If they had wanted to go that way, they could have easily had Jon and Arya team up. But instead, they sidelined Jon while his teenage sister did it for him with ease. There has to be a reason why that is. If there isn't, then literally.... the whole Night King story is a failure.

Arya was part of that ARMY that Jon combined together at Winterfell. No the show really didn't. We, myself included, incorrectly interpreted this. It happens. We're not perfect. The reason is because the story tellers told the story this way like George is telling the story the way he wants to not the way we think they should. It is a fan theory because we predicted it wrong. The show didn't set it up apparently. We THOUGHT the show did, we were wrong. The night king had to ultimately fail unless George plans to have the white walkers kill everyone lol.

 

[Rocco]

But we are not Stannis or the High Septin. We aren't characters in the show... we're the audience. And we know the Lord of Light is real. We've seen it. This isn't a case of us being false disciples of a religion... this is the audience following the breadcrumbs that the show specifically left out there for us to follow. And now I should be happy with the fact that they've been deceiving me this whole time? That they got me invested in a character based on a lie? Why should I care about a show when they can tell me something for 8 years, only to pull the rug out from under me at literally the last second? Why should I get invested in any characters? Why should I care at all? I've spent 8 years caring about Jon, only to find that he's a nincompoop.. a terrible strategist... and basically incompetent. His little sister could do in 10 seconds what he tried to do for 8 years.

Now, if the show's intention was to be like, "haha, you're just like Stannis! Don't you feel silly!" Well yeah I do. And just like Stannis, I'm rightly pissed off about it. How could I not be? I've been sold a bag full of promises only to have every single promise broken with no warning and no explanation at all. It's simply unacceptable. There's no reaction to have other than contempt at this point. They gave us a twist that does nothing to elevate the story...nothing.

Magic being real doesn't mean the lord of light is real. However it would appear Jon's purpose was not to kill they night king or all the white walkers. I wanted it but alas we were wrong. When you make demands like that and assumed so adamantly and aggressively yeah you will be pissed. It doesn't piss me off for that reason even thought I wanted Jon to kill the night king.

 

[MaceB]

Magic being real doesn't mean the lord of light is real. However it would appear Jon's purpose was not to kill they night king or all the white walkers. I wanted it but alas we were wrong.

We weren't wrong. We were right, based on the info we had. The show runners simply didn't want anyone to guess correctly, so they completely changed course in the last second... so they could have that sweet sweet twist.

 

[MaceB]

So I should be happy with a twist that came out of absolutely no where, that adds absolutely nothing to the overall plot, but takes away seriously from the main character? Cool.

 

[Rocco]

We weren't wrong. We were right, based on the info we had. The show runners simply didn't want anyone to guess correctly, so they completely changed course in the last second... so they could have that sweet sweet twist.

Apparently we were not right hence why it didn't happen. They never planned for Jon to kill the night king at first. It wasn't last second. They decided who would kill the night king three years ago lol. They didn't decide Jon at first then Arya. It was a sweet twist but only because it was Arya and how they set it up since season three or at least ultimately made sure it connected with the season 3 prediction.

 

[Rocco]

So I should be happy with a twist that came out of absolutely no where, that adds absolutely nothing to the overall plot, but takes away seriously from the main character? Cool.

It wasn't out of no where. They made sure of that. The hints were there. We just simply ignored them. Eh it happens. You don't have to be happy about it but god damn it still works and took us on an emotional roller coaster. Doesn't add anything? LOL The white walkers and dead are done prepping us for the rest of the end of the story and weakening Jon and company. That's what Cersei wanted. Arya is one of the main characters. Jon is one of them. There is no one main character.

 

[MaceB]

It wasn't out of no where. They made sure of that. The hints were there. We just simply ignored them. Eh it happens. You don't have to be happy about it but god damn it still works and took us on an emotional roller coaster. Doesn't add anything? LOL The white walkers and dead are done prepping us for the rest of the end of the story and weakening Jon and company. That's what Cersei wanted.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Jon killing the Night King was not hinted at, while Arya's was. That's certainly not the case. If anyone was hinted at killing the Night King, it was Jon. Not Arya. Arya's story had nothing to do with the Night King up til now. Absolutely nothing.

It didn't work at all. It wasn't an emotional roller coaster. It was an empty shock moment, that had absolutely no emotional resonance.

Arya killing the White Walkers doesn't add anything to the story. If Clegane had killed the Night King, the white walkers would still be dead, they'd still be done weakening Jon. Arya killing him doesn't add anything uniquely to the story. There's no emotional weight there. It's the same as any random character doing it. Jorah could have killed the NK, and it would have been just as emotionally satisfying, just as narratively consistent.

But if Jon had done it, you would have had a significant moment for him. It would have been a resolution of his main obstacle. As it is, it'll never be resolved. He's not the Prince who was promised. He's just some random guy. And now his purpose is to be King... which he never wanted... ? Cool. So satisfying.

The writers decided that subverting expectations was most important. That's why they had Arya do it. It adds absolutely nothing to the story other than shock value.

 

[MaceB]

I'll ask this simple question. What makes Arya killing the NK more impactful than Jon killing the NK... other than subverting expectations? What unique value does Arya bring to this moment?

 

[Motown Marvel]

I'll ask this simple question. What makes Arya killing the NK more impactful than Jon killing the NK... other than subverting expectations? What unique value does Arya bring to this moment?

...that her 7 seasons of training which was central to her character arc paid off. Just a guess.

 

[Lencho01]

Why You Couldn’t See a Damn Thing on This Week’s Game of Thrones