Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Reek]

Theon is alive, Roose... Prove me wrong.

 

[Roose Bolton]

He’s alive in my heart

 

[Perfect Cell]

He's just taking a nap. He had a big day, so he's all tuckered out.

 

[Reek]

he's regenerating certain parts and needs rest.

 

[MaceB]

I don't consider your cynicism fun or not fun.....I just responded to your comments because I personally don't see what you and others are so upset about. Like I've said....it worked for me. I had no expectations for Jon or anyone else on the show to be the one to kill the Night king. I had several characters as a possible killer of him....but wasn't expecting/wanting/hoping any one person to do the deed.

You didn't find it un-earned? Like... I'm all for a surprise moment if it adds something to the story. But I've been asking and asking, and no one seems capable of telling me just what the benefit was of having Ayra do this outside of it being a surprise. I can appreciate that some people don't mind that. But doesn't it come across as arbitrary? Forced? This is exactly like LOST, I guess. The show got known for shocks, and so it felt like it had to do a lot of shocks to keep people's attention. Even at the end... when we didn't want or ask for more surprises... that was the time that we wanted answers... not more questions.

I don't know why people got the impression that GOT was known for it's twists. It had 4 shocking moments that caught viewers by surprise... 4 surprises in 8 years, and they all felt natural and and organic. This one didn't. This one felt completely manufactured. I just don't get it I guess.. Wouldn't it have been so much more satisfying if Jon did it? And if so.. is that really where we are? Where it's better to have a surprise than a satisfying resolution?

I look forward to this week's episode, where I'm confident that the writers will fix this. Despite what some fans I think, I believe D&D knew what they were doing here. They knew how this would come across, and they have another twist up their sleeve to make it right. I have faith.

 

[C. Lee]

You didn't find it un-earned? Like... I'm all for a surprise moment if it adds something to the story. But I've been asking and asking, and no one seems capable of telling me just what the benefit was of having Ayra do this outside of it being a surprise. I can appreciate that some people don't mind that. But doesn't it come across as arbitrary? Forced? This is exactly like LOST, I guess. The show got known for shocks, and so it felt like it had to do a lot of shocks to keep people's attention. Even at the end... when we didn't want or ask for more surprises... that was the time that we wanted answers... not more questions.

No....I didn't find it unearned or arbitrary that Arya killed him. There were three people that I thought were most likely to kill the Night King.....Jon, Arya, and Sam. Jon because he was the leader of the nightwatch. Arya because she is a bad ass psycho. Sam because he had already killed a general and would be the biggest surprise. But I wasn't going to be mad if none of these did it.

 

[Reek]

D&D said themselves there was no reason for Arya to do it other than they wanted to surprise people...

 

[MaceB]

I guess I don't get it. This idea that it doesn't matter how a character's story is resolved because GOT had 4 surprise moments in its 8 year run. Was I ready for a surprise? I guess.... but certainly not a deflating one. This one was absolutely brutal.

 

[Marvolo]

New promo pics are out. It shows them burning the dead. Dany and her group are standing together apart from the Starks.

My prediction:

Dany will alienate Jon and be cold towards him. Jon will want to recover before dealing with Cersei. Dany's going to want to rush to KL. She'll give em the pep talk. Get them riled up to kill Cersei. Then she's gonna use the North as meat for the grinder at KL. The Stark's wont be liking that ****. Tensions will rise to a boiling point. Jon will have to kill her to save his people.

 

[Sithborg]

No, it's on the storywriters. By your standard, I have no right to criticize any story, because any plot point that I think is poorly written is my fault. Obviously the writers knew what they were doing.

Not true. Subverting expectations just so you can have a "gotcha" moment is bad storytelling. The writers aren't gods... they can make mistakes, as they clearly did here.

At this point, I would have hoped you have accepted the showrunners flaws. They are good at giving people fan pleasing moments. But they are not good writers. The show is generally entertaining, but it is trashy in a lot of ways.

 

[MaceB]

At this point, I would have hoped you have accepted the showrunners flaws. They are good at giving people fan pleasing moments. But they are not good writers. The show is generally entertaining, but it is trashy in a lot of ways.

I mean... for me... season 6 is one of my favorite seasons. People aren't wrong... I am a Jon Snow fan, and the show basically went full Jon Snow soon after they ran out of material. Now... look at what they've done to my boy!

 

[MaceB]

New promo pics are out. It shows them burning the dead. Dany and her group are standing together apart from the Starks.

My prediction:

Dany will alienate Jon and be cold towards him. Jon will want to recover before dealing with Cersei. Dany's going to want to rush to KL. She'll give em the pep talk. Get them riled up to kill Cersei. Then she's gonna use the North as meat for the grinder at KL. The Stark's wont be liking that ****. Tensions will rise to a boiling point. Jon will have to kill her to save his people.

Sounds solid to me. I personally wish they had ditched the mad queen angle seasons ago... but now that we're here, there's no going back now. They've dedicated too much time to that plot point not to do it.

 

[Marvolo]

Sounds solid to me. I personally wish they had ditched the mad queen angle seasons ago... but now that we're here, there's no going back now. They've dedicated too much time to that plot point not to do it.

I also think she's going to have Sam killes and try to kill Bran because they know Jon is Aegon.

 

[Sithborg]

Sam shouldn't be alive, btw. I think that is about the only survival of the last episode that frustrates be due to what they showed of Sam's position in the episode.

 

[MaceB]

I also think she's going to have Sam killes and try to kill Bran because they know Jon is Aegon.

We'll see. The risk is that we do know Dany at this point. She's not a malicious or sadistic person. Her transition needs to feel smooth, and I just don't think they have time for that. The absolute worst case scenario is if she turns into Anakin in EP3.... basically as if she's come under some kind of Mad Queen spell.

All things being equal, I think that's the most likely scenario unfortunately. They really needed another season.

 

[MaceB]

Sam shouldn't be alive, btw. I think that is about the only survival of the last episode that frustrates be due to what they showed of Sam's position in the episode.

It was the most bizarre thing. he could have really shined down in the crypts too. He could have protected everyone, and really proven himself. Instead... they thought... nah, let's just show Sam 8 or 9 times getting piled on by the dead without anything really happening to him.

Cool.

 

[Reek]

and what the ****... where were the Reeds????? How has Howland been nothing but a flashback????

eesh

 

[Reek]

seeing meera and arya owning ass together woulda been nice.

 

[MaceB]

and what the ****... where were the Reeds????? How has Howland been nothing but a flashback????

eesh

In retrospect, they should have written papa reed out of the flashback entirely. I was fine just thinking of Meera as a child of a great house... leave it at that. There's been so much talk about Howland Reed, and he aint coming.

 

[Perfect Cell]

and what the ****... where were the Reeds????? How has Howland been nothing but a flashback????

eesh

Too busy stockpiling crocodile meat for the winter. That **** probably isn't easy to preserve.

 

[DACrowe]

D&D said themselves there was no reason for Arya to do it other than they wanted to surprise people...

And this is bad? One of the main reasons George R.R. Martin killed Ned Stark was because he knew readers wouldn't expect it and he wanted to see what happened if a fantasy narrative played out with consequence. There is nothing in Arya's background that makes her a bad choice to do it other than viewers didn't expect it. That does not make it bad storytelling.

 

[MaceB]

And this is bad? One of the main reasons George R.R. Martin killed Ned Stark was because he knew readers wouldn't expect it and he wanted to see what happened if a fantasy narrative played out with consequence. There is nothing in Arya's background that makes her a bad choice to do it other than viewers didn't expect it. That does not make it bad storytelling.

Sure it does. The bar at which a character is a good pick for whether they should be able to kill the lead antagonist is not whether they are physically capable or not. By that measure... again... anyone could have done it. Tormund could have just as easily put a knife through the NK as Arya did.... physically speaking. Clegane is arguably just as good of a fighter as Arya... why didn't he do it? Physical abilities are not the standard by which we are measuring this.

And all twists are not created equal. There are good twists, and there are bad twists. And if you are going to subvert expectations seconds before the big resolution, then you better be sure it's for a good reason. Arya served no good reason here. She brought nothing extra to the table, when it come to why she is the ideal character to do this. It doesn't help her growth in any way. All it does is minimize the NK's significance.

Ned Stark's death served a purpose. His death galvanized the characters into an epic battle with the Lannisters that propelled the whole show forward. It's not the same here. There's no purpose to Arya doing this. The consequences would be the same whether it was her or hot pie or sweet Robin.

And so when D&D say they just did it for shock value.... well it shows. This was not a decision designed to support the story. Instead, they contorted the story to fit this decision.

 

[DACrowe]

Where is it foreshadowed that Robb would kill Joffrey? Having them as same age rivals during a few days certainly doesn't foreshadow something so specific.

More so in the book, they are both boy kings and natural rivals. In A Game of Thrones, Robb challenges Joffrey to a sparring match at Winterfell and Joff accepts... but then reneges because Robb is younger and still using a training sword. It is considered unfinished business that their paths (swords) shall cross again. Given that Joffrey then executes his father, and Robb is visibly the rightful boy king versus the evil one by the end of the book, I finished it clearly thinking there would be a showdown between the two. And that assumption is intentional by the author. The boy king of the slain father is also a fantasy/generic storytelling trope.

I don't see anything foreshadowing Ned beating Jaime either, especially not in the books where Jaime is described as a vastly superior fighter.

This one is more in the show, but it is heavily foreshadowed that in the first season Ned and Jaime are the two best swordsmen on the show. Jaime alludes to that fact when they meet at Winterfell and Ned says he doesn't want Jaime to know how good he is. After he nearly kills Bran, and Ned suspects the Lannisters, their next meeting before the Iron Throne escalates the tension they shall have a sword fight and discover who is the better man. Most viewers want/believe Ned will kill Jaime and avenge Bran's crippling.

Instead their one sword fight is cut short before it gets started by a Lannister guard and we never see who is the better fighter. This is typical hero/villain logic that they will have unfinished business in the "third act" (or at least down the road on a TV series). Instead Ned is executed with a lame leg.

Arya's list isn't foreshadowing either, it's just the character expressing her hate and desire and not any inevitable conclusion.

Oh come on now, if you didn't think this foreshadowed some of the deaths, many of which did come to pass, including in the immediacy when she ordered Jaquen to kill several nearby names on her list, then you're just refusing to see it is setting up for the reader a thirst for vengeance. Arya will get Joffrey. Or Robb. Some Stark will.

Instead he is killed by a conspiracy we don't understand for hundreds of pages (or a number of episodes) that doesn't involve the Starks, and it ends up getting another character we like (Tyrion) sentenced wrongfully to death.

Red Wedding is foreshadowed in the books, which is done both in the House of the Undying and by Patchface on Dragonstone. The same thing with Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son in a few different places. That's proper foreshadowing with specific events being hinted at in ways that are at least clear after the fact and often clear enough for there to be a chance of connecting the dots beforehand.

You mean like "Red eyes, blue eyes, green eyes?"

Azor Ahai is one of those strongly foreshadowing things that people figured what it meant, but had to speculate who it was as several characters fit the description. It's not some vague thing like that a character wants to get revenge on someone else, it's a clear prophecy and one of those that has been seen like a Chekov's Gun because it has tangible traces in what's happening. Just like the Valonqar prophecy that has everything fulfilled in the show, except the final piece.

I honestly never put much stock in the Azor Ahai prophecy. It is too vague and the person who was the must gung ho about sharing it got it wildly wrong by betting on Stannis, who clearly was never it. Words are wind is a common refrain in the show. Only Maggy the Frog's prophecies have had much validity.

 

[MaceB]

I honestly never put much stock in the Azor Ahai prophecy. It is too vague and the person who was the must gung ho about sharing it got it wildly wrong by betting on Stannis, who clearly was never it. Words are wind is a common refrain in the show. Only Maggy the Frog's prophecies have had much validity.

And apparently the brown eyes, blue eyes prophecy. She was wrong about everything, except this little 30 second improvisational soothsaying apparently.

How people go from here to 'oh that's foreshadowing that she's going to kill the NK"... I don't know.

 

[DACrowe]

Sure it does. The bar at which a character is a good pick for whether they should be able to kill the lead antagonist is not whether they are physically capable or not. By that measure... again... anyone could have done it. Tormund could have just as easily put a knife through the NK as Arya did.... physically speaking. Clegane is arguably just as good of a fighter as Arya... why didn't he do it? Physical abilities are not the standard by which we are measuring this.

And all twists are not created equal. There are good twists, and there are bad twists. And if you are going to subvert expectations seconds before the big resolution, then you better be sure it's for a good reason. Arya served no good reason here. She brought nothing extra to the table, when it come to why she is the ideal character to do this. It doesn't help her growth in any way. All it does is minimize the NK's significance.

Ned Stark's death served a purpose. His death galvanized the characters into an epic battle with the Lannisters that propelled the whole show forward. It's not the same here. There's no purpose to Arya doing this. The consequences would be the same whether it was her or hot pie or sweet Robin.

And so when D&D say they just did it for shock value.... well it shows. This was not a decision designed to support the story. Instead, they contorted the story to fit this decision.

You keep saying did it for shock value... from what I gather what you wanted (hypothetically, and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is that the moment the Night King approaches Bran (or thereabouts), Jon Snow valiantly steps into his way with a flaming sword. They have a duel and he plunges the burning sword into the Night King?

I mean, that would look cool, I grant you... but doesn't that just feel like every other fantasy narrative? The Chosen One? I genuinely prefer what we got. Either way the Night King was going down, but it was nice to be on the edge of my seat and elated when he suddenly did die as opposed to waiting for him to die in a protracted Voldemort/Kylo Ren/what have you sword fight.