The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Frodo]

I don't even think its totally tribal thinking when you boil it down. It really boils down to people taking it personally if you don't agree with them. The response is to lash out ,because on some level ,they consider it a personal insult if you don't agree with them.

I feel like that's been a good percentage of vitriol and venom that fans tend to throw at each other over these type of films . Its the inability to accept disagreement and be content with agreeing to disagree.

Instead its about being disagreeable , bullying, and insulting when it comes to online discourse.

I don't agree with several of Kennedy's steps or Johnson's ideas in regards to the recent SW films ,but I don't hate them or consider them evil . Who they are as people doesn't factor into how I feel about the end product at all.

For all I know , If I knew met RJ and Kennedy, I could end up getting along and liking both of them as people .

 

[jmc]

When a franchise becomes in all sense and purpose a religion you will get the zealots.

 

[Marvolo]

I still find it jarring that people either don't realize or don't care how immature and undermining to their own argument it is to use these childish "nicknames". It has never been a good look, and I can only assume bad faith arguing from that point on.

And the "evil woman". Oh man.

I'm sorry, but this is the problem with fandom in 2019 in a nutshell. It is not enough to simply not like a movie. No, the people who made it are in fact, EVIL.

Here's a 2019 fanboy transposed to 1980:

"George LOSER has no idea what he's doing, he is ruining Star Wars. Obi-Wan clearly told Luke Vader betrayed and murdered his father, now all of a sudden Vader IS his father? WTF? They've assassinated Obi-Wan's character and turned him into a blatant liar all in the name of subverting our expectations. Also the whole movie was pointless. It starts with the heroes in retreat...ends with the heroes in retreat. NOTHING happened. Most of Luke's training takes place off-screen anyway. We've waited this whole time to see Luke defeat Vader, and now it will probably never happen because he's not going to kill his own father. Unless they decide to retcon everything in the next movie and reveal that Vader was lying...ugh, what a mess. The saga is dead."

So damn accurate.

 

[harlequinade]

Didn't Kennedy and Johnson say the people who hate TLJ are misogynistic trolls/Russian bots/something like that?

 

[Gothamsknight]

Didn't Kennedy and Johnson say the people who hate TLJ are misogynistic trolls/Russian bots/something like that?

I don't know about that, but there's quite a lot of people that are that dont like that film. Not all of course, but they are there and it should be obvious to anybody. just look at all these youtube channels talking about "SJW is ruining Star Wars". Always complaining that rey is able to do stuff so easily when luke was able to do the same just as easily.

 

[harlequinade]

I don't know about that, but there's quite a lot of people that are that dont like that film. Not all of course, but they are there and it should be obvious to anybody. just look at all these youtube channels talking about "SJW is ruining Star Wars". Always complaining that rey is able to do stuff so easily when luke was able to do the same just as easily.

Yeah incenls be trippin' everywhere but that wasn't my point. For the creators to offend the critics of a movie like that is....not very wise. I have zero sympathy that they are being name called if that's exactly what they did

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yeah incenls be trippin' everywhere but that wasn't my point. For the creators to offend the critics of a movie like that is....not very wise. I have zero sympathy that they are being name called if that's exactly what they did

There's no evidence that they did as far as Im aware. All Rian Johnson has done is defend his choices in The Last Jedi, and fans have s*** on him for that. He also defended Kelly Marie Tran from harassment, which is a noble thing to do. Especially since scumbags think they can bully someone off of the internet because they didn't like a movie. half of these people don't even realize how responsible kathleen kennedy is for some of the most iconic films in hollywood.

 

[harlequinade]

There's no evidence that they did as far as Im aware. All Rian Johnson has done is defend his choices in The Last Jedi, and fans have s*** on him for that. He also defended Kelly Marie Tran from harassment, which is a noble thing to do. Especially since scumbags think they can bully someone off of the internet because they didn't like a movie. half of these people don't even realize how responsible kathleen kennedy is for some of the most iconic films in hollywood.

That's not ALL he did. Remember that moronic notion about remaking TLJ? And he rewtweeted it ;'please please' or something? Why does he engage with these people? You descend to the gutter, you are gonna get dirty

 

[Gothamsknight]

That's not ALL he did. Remember that moronic notion about remaking TLJ? And he rewtweeted it ;'please please' or something? Why does he engage with these people? You descend to the gutter, you are gonna get dirty

well, to his defense, it must get tiring hearing people bash your work and claim they can do better. I mean, half of these people who claim they can "make something better" are really blowing smoke out of their ass. And the most they'd ever do is make a 5 minute lightsaber fight while forgetting 2 hours of story haha. I probably wouldn't have retweeted it because it just gives them ammunition, but I do enjoy seeing him get under these peoples skins

 

[Frodo]

What I try do is address the person's argument. Attacking the person because you don't agree with their opinion is really pointless, and i've seen more than enough of that on both sides of TLJ debate as far as fans go.

That's not to say that if someone is being a bully, bigot, etc, that they shouldn't be called out. They should be. Then again, you shouldn't paint everyone you encounter with a broad brush as a means of avoiding or dismissing their argument either. I've seen alot of that on both sides of TLJ debate as well.

Frankly, I don't care if someone bashes or praises a film 24/7 . The point is to keep making your arguments about why you love or hate a film , not to harass , bully, and insult people personally because don't agree with them.

 

[Grootster]

I don't know about that, but there's quite a lot of people that are that dont like that film. Not all of course, but they are there and it should be obvious to anybody. just look at all these youtube channels talking about "SJW is ruining Star Wars". Always complaining that rey is able to do stuff so easily when luke was able to do the same just as easily.

Good grief. This has been debunked so many times, yet people still use it as a defense for the character.

A New Hope clearly offers explanations for Luke's abilities. It's stated that Skyhopper controls are similar to an X-Wing's, and that Luke has experience hitting small targets. The movie makes some attempt to show Luke training. Is it rushed? Sure, a bit, but everything he does is set up through dialog and scenes. Not to mention there are long gaps between movies, where Luke could have studied on his own. It's not comparable to Rey being able to preform an Obi-Wan-level mind trick a few hours after she learns what the Force is. Or being able to speak Wookiee and BB-8 (despite the fact that BB-8 is supposed to be a very modern model of droid). Or knowing who Han Solo is, but thinking Luke was a myth.

The problem isn't that Rey is "too powerful" or "too skilled". The problem is that it's lazy filmmaking that doesn't offer explanations for anything. This is coming from someone who likes the Captain Marvel character. Captain Marvel is easily one of the more powerful characters in the MCU, but her powers are actually explained (albeit a bit vaguely). They could have easily dropped a line about Rey doing some piloting for Unkar Plutt, or shown us some Jedi manuals in her AT-AT. Or shown a Wookiee say hi to her in the Jakku market. Heck, say she's some sort of super-being that was born with all that knowledge. A terrible corny explanation is better than just giving a character any power needed for that particular scene. It's horrible, lazy filmmaking.

 

[henzINNIT]

Hasn't this 'debunking' been 'debunked' by now already too? Rey has experience flying (she says she has flown but never left the planet), she worked for the owner of the Millennium Falcon and was shown to be familiar with the ship, referring to it as garbage and criticizing its recent modifications. She pulls off some impressive moves - surprising herself - after a rough start. That is not lazy writing. It's entirely consistent with a series that has already explained that force sensitive people make great pilots.

It's not particularly subtle but Rey is basically a Star Wars 'fan'. She has relics from the war and knows the stories. She lives a quiet life on a trash planet with various creatures and machines, she has plenty of time to learn languages. You can complain that it's convenient that she understands Wookies or BB-8, sure. It saves time not having everything translated for everyone. Same with her knowledge of the force. It spares us unnecessary exposition, and returns to the OT approach where the force is more spontaneous and intuitive. First time I've heard a complaint about BB-8's 'new model' language though. This is the rabbit hole we travel down when talking about how people understand emotive bleeps I suppose.


God I hope something new to talk about comes up.

 

[Roose Bolton]

That's not ALL he did. Remember that moronic notion about remaking TLJ? And he rewtweeted it ;'please please' or something? Why does he engage with these people? You descend to the gutter, you are gonna get dirty

That sounds more like he was laughing off an insult.

And I don’t think he’s ever claimed that people who don’t like his movie are misogynists or “Russian Bots”. I don’t think Kennedy has either...

 

[Sithborg]

I think he did address that there were those segments in the fandom, though.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Hasn't this 'debunking' been 'debunked' by now already too? Rey has experience flying (she says she has flown but never left the planet), she worked for the owner of the Millennium Falcon and was shown to be familiar with the ship, referring to it as garbage and criticizing its recent modifications. She pulls off some impressive moves - surprising herself - after a rough start. That is not lazy writing. It's entirely consistent with a series that has already explained that force sensitive people make great pilots.

It's not particularly subtle but Rey is basically a Star Wars 'fan'. She has relics from the war and knows the stories. She lives a quiet life on a trash planet with various creatures and machines, she has plenty of time to learn languages. You can complain that it's convenient that she understands Wookies or BB-8, sure. It saves time not having everything translated for everyone. Same with her knowledge of the force. It spares us unnecessary exposition, and returns to the OT approach where the force is more spontaneous and intuitive. First time I've heard a complaint about BB-8's 'new model' language though. This is the rabbit hole we travel down when talking about how people understand emotive bleeps I suppose.


God I hope something new to talk about comes up.

End of Luke's first episode: Luke is completely powerless against Vader, only survives by blasting the doors shut before Vader can kill his ass. Later only survives because Han shoots Vader's ship before Vader can kill his ass.

End of Luke's second episode: Beaten, bruised, maimed, emotionally devastated after having discovered that his father is a heartless murderer and that his mentor lied to him about it. He is left sobbing and crying out for help while hanging from an antenna over a bottomless pit. Only manages to survive because his friends rescue him.

End of Rey's first episode: Defeats Kylo despite having no training in the Force and being thrown into a tree hard enough to be knocked unconscious. Kylo is conveniently injured just enough so Rey can kick his ass. Kylo only survives because a random fissure forms in the ground.

End of Rey's second episode: Has the chance to kill Kylo but decides against it out of the goodness of her heart. Escapes from being captured with just a scratch on her arm, immediately starts shouting "Woo I like this". Effortlessly lifts a ton of boulders. Her friends only manage to survive because she effortlessly lifted said boulders.


Rey:

Luke:

Rey:

Luke:

Yeah...Luke had it JUST as easy.

 

[Frodo]

That sounds more like he was laughing off an insult.

And I don’t think he’s ever claimed that people who don’t like his movie are misogynists or “Russian Bots”. I don’t think Kennedy has either...

Yeah, Kennedy and Johnson haven't said anything like that.

However , I've seen those arguments made in broad brush manner by some fans/geek pundits claiming to support Kennedy and Johnson .

In their defense of Kennedy and Johnson's decisions , they resort to ad hom attacks , and paint all fans who disagree with them with a broad brush.

They aren't doing Kennedy and Johnson any favors by coming to their defense with those types of arguments.

 

[MaceB]

Well, as I understand it, Russian bots did actually gin up controversy online by stoking the TLJ hate. Why in the world would they do that? That's an interesting question. Wonder if TROS is going to gt the same kind of treatment.

 

[Gothamsknight]

For the record guys, we had a Vanity Fair dedicated to The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi towards the end of may, so I'd say it's very likely we get one by next month.

 

[BatLobster]

Well, as I understand it, Russian bots did actually gin up controversy online by stoking the TLJ hate. Why in the world would they do that? That's an interesting question. Wonder if TROS is going to gt the same kind of treatment.

I think it's because I think it adds to the overall "culture war" exhaustion. It seems to fit right in with the larger psy-op of pushing buttons to make us more disillusioned with each other and more prone to anger/divisiveness and basically psychologically wear us down. It may seem strange for Putin to use resources on something like inflaming discussion of a movie, but that's just the thing...it costs so little and has proven to be so effective for them, why wouldn't they include pop culture targets in their attacks?

 

[Grootster]

Well, as I understand it, Russian bots did actually gin up controversy online by stoking the TLJ hate. Why in the world would they do that? That's an interesting question. Wonder if TROS is going to gt the same kind of treatment.

Russian bots had nothing to do with anything, that's been proven many times. It was a bad movie, and audiences rejected it. Anything else is an excuse put forward by Lucasfilm.

 

[MaceB]

Russian bots had nothing to do with anything, that's been proven many times. It was a bad movie, and audiences rejected it. Anything else is an excuse put forward by Lucasfilm.

Both things can be true at the same time. It can be a bad film AND a victim of Russian sabotage.

It seems after researching it a little more, TLJ was the topic of a few Russian operatives online, who wanted to use the backlash as an opportunity to spread their political rhetoric. Something like 4% of the twitter conversation came from those kinds of sources... which is more or less true for a lot of topics on twitter apparently. It wasn't a coordinated effort.. it wasn't this overtly vast operation.... there's no evidence that it effected the box office in any way.

 

[godisawesome]

I think it's because I think it adds to the overall "culture war" exhaustion. It seems to fit right in with the larger psy-op of pushing buttons to make us more disillusioned with each other and more prone to anger/divisiveness and basically psychologically wear us down. It may seem strange for Putin to use resources on something like inflaming discussion of a movie, but that's just the thing...it costs so little and has proven to be so effective for them, why wouldn't they include pop culture targets in their attacks?

General in-fighting, confusion, and directionless rage is reason enough for Russia to stoke those fires.

It’s just that, in comparison to, say TFA and Rogue One, TLJ was perfectly suited to be far more divisive and confusing between the various factions the Russians may have been targeting. Some of that was intentional on Rian Johnson’s part, but some was unintentional. The film simultaneously has the stated goals and themes of being progressive, inclusive, and feminist... but let’s not pretend like there’s not a hell of a lot of clumsy, backwards, and self-defeating moments for all of those themes at the same time sneaking in because of Rian Johnson being a human writer who just unfortunately has some habits that don’t help his messages.

So, attempting to sow discord on TLJ’s reception from the perspective of “damn those pushy SJWs!” would have been easy for Russian provocateurs because TLJ very explicitly tries to frame Holdo as a feminist authority figure and Poe as toxically masculine at the start of his arc... but the effect of Russian provocateurs would only be amplified by the fact that Rey’s story is, for all intent and purposes, pretty darn sexist and focused almost wholly on Luke and Kylo at her characterization’s expense. Or for another example, Johnson was very intentionally expanding the cast in largely diverse ways with the addition of BDT and KMT... but then stuck them and Finn into a meaningless bit of fluff where they make things worse by not listening to the white woman. And let’s face it, for all the progressive intent of the film, there’s an awful lot of things that make it seem like Luke and Kylo are benfitting from a double standard that downplays deaths and crimes caused by their actions and inactions and emphasizes sympathy for them that may be unearned to the audience.

Unlike Rogue One and TFA, where the progressive themes were generally executed better overall, TLJ was sloppy enough to make it a provocateur’s dream target. RO and TFA were sure footed enough that progressive fans and enthusiastic-if-apolitical mainstream fans could easily rally against the racists and misogynists complaining about Finn, Rey, Jyn, Cassian, etc., and largely drown out ant attempt to provoke a fandom war instigated by Russian bots and trolls. TLJ, though? You’ve got fractures among Progressives and mainstream fans that can be exploited from both ends: Rey and Finn’s fanbases are fractured over whether the film is inclusive and feminist or mildly racist and sexist, Holdo’s somewhat sloppy writing feeds into sexist attacks on her character while simultaneously making some feminist defenders frustarated defending a self-sabotaging tool for Poe’s arc, and anything about Luke is going to start a shouting match, just like how Kylo Ren will as the entitled rich white boy turned fascist who the film insists is sympathetic.

There were more vulnerable “fracture points” in TLJ to feast on and drive fandom wedges between.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Russian bots had nothing to do with anything, that's been proven many times. It was a bad movie, and audiences rejected it. Anything else is an excuse put forward by Lucasfilm.

That's what happens when people have turned their personal identities into the media they consume. Disliking must not be tolerated and scapegoats found because they take it completely personally.

 

[BatLobster]

General in-fighting, confusion, and directionless rage is reason enough for Russia to stoke those fires.

It’s just that, in comparison to, say TFA and Rogue One, TLJ was perfectly suited to be far more divisive and confusing between the various factions the Russians may have been targeting. Some of that was intentional on Rian Johnson’s part, but some was unintentional. The film simultaneously has the stated goals and themes of being progressive, inclusive, and feminist... but let’s not pretend like there’s not a hell of a lot of clumsy, backwards, and self-defeating moments for all of those themes at the same time sneaking in because of Rian Johnson being a human writer who just unfortunately has some habits that don’t help his messages.

So, attempting to sow discord on TLJ’s reception from the perspective of “damn those pushy SJWs!” would have been easy for Russian provocateurs because TLJ very explicitly tries to frame Holdo as a feminist authority figure and Poe as toxically masculine at the start of his arc... but the effect of Russian provocateurs would only be amplified by the fact that Rey’s story is, for all intent and purposes, pretty darn sexist and focused almost wholly on Luke and Kylo at her characterization’s expense. Or for another example, Johnson was very intentionally expanding the cast in largely diverse ways with the addition of BDT and KMT... but then stuck them and Finn into a meaningless bit of fluff where they make things worse by not listening to the white woman. And let’s face it, for all the progressive intent of the film, there’s an awful lot of things that make it seem like Luke and Kylo are benfitting from a double standard that downplays deaths and crimes caused by their actions and inactions and emphasizes sympathy for them that may be unearned to the audience.

Unlike Rogue One and TFA, where the progressive themes were generally executed better overall, TLJ was sloppy enough to make it a provocateur’s dream target. RO and TFA were sure footed enough that progressive fans and enthusiastic-if-apolitical mainstream fans could easily rally against the racists and misogynists complaining about Finn, Rey, Jyn, Cassian, etc., and largely drown out ant attempt to provoke a fandom war instigated by Russian bots and trolls. TLJ, though? You’ve got fractures among Progressives and mainstream fans that can be exploited from both ends: Rey and Finn’s fanbases are fractured over whether the film is inclusive and feminist or mildly racist and sexist, Holdo’s somewhat sloppy writing feeds into sexist attacks on her character while simultaneously making some feminist defenders frustarated defending a self-sabotaging tool for Poe’s arc, and anything about Luke is going to start a shouting match, just like how Kylo Ren will as the entitled rich white boy turned fascist who the film insists is sympathetic.

There were more vulnerable “fracture points” in TLJ to feast on and drive fandom wedges between.

I agree with you that TLJ inherently had a lot of red meat for a provocateur to dig into, but I still fundamentally disagree with the notion that in a pure fantasy film, having characters played by POC actors means that their actions are somehow meant to be reflective of their gender or race at large. That's one of the beautiful things about Star Wars to me. A galaxy far, far away does not share our same painful history. It touches of race themes with droids and aliens (in some unfortunate cases in the prequels), but inter-human racism has never been a thing in that universe. The push for more representation is great, but it should never mean that a character played by a POC must behave in a certain way. That seems incredibly limiting to me. Mind you, this is a series whose greatest villain was voiced by James Earl Jones. I would sure hope that nobody interpreted that at the time as offering any sort of commentary.

I think everything you're describing is just a result of the culture war and everyone's heightened sensitivity on all sides. TLJ was just a movie. Characters made mistakes because...it's a movie. Characters made heroic sacrifices because...it's movie. Bad guys who do horrible things have a sympathetic backstory....because it's a movie.

That's what happens when people have turned their personal identities into the media they consume. Disliking must not be tolerated and scapegoats found because they take it completely personally.

Nah, it's not about scapegoating. I know and accept that a LOT of people genuinely hated TLJ. Many of my friends do, and I'm fine with it and I get it. However, any follower of current events should be quite disturbed by Russia's meddling. Politically or otherwise. Anyone saying TLJ haters are all Russian bots is misunderstanding the situation anyway. I'm sure Russia had pro-TLJ bots too that were calling the haters sexist/racist etc. It doesn't take a large amount of them to cause trouble either. It's about pushing people further into their own echo chambers. It's worth taking a step back every once in a while to acknowledge that this is going on and make an effort not to give in and assume the worst about people who disagree with you.

 

[X Knight]

I disliked TLJ and I'm not a Russian Bot. nor did any Russian Bots influence my feelings towards the film.