Ghost Rider 2 - reboot with Dan Ketch?

[DoomRulz]

Yeah, Dan may be a good kid but I also agree with this quote of yours



I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I think its funny how some complain that the movie and the new series is ripping off ketch era when the biggest rip off of them all was the ketch GR being almost exactly like Blazes in almost all details....however somehow THAT is not a ripoff
the way I see it the ketch GR OWES Blaze.

Their "idea" to create another different GR that happens to look exactly like the original (except for different cloth) with almost the exact same powers as original (the only real difference is that souls burnt by fire from original and from penance stare from copycat errr, I mean 2nd GR and added chain to 2nd) is what has bastardized this character. THE ONLY thing that would have saved it is if they would have let Mackie do what he wanted and have 2nd GR be Zarathos and the differences in 1 and 2 be attributed to the effect that different hosts had on the "inhabiting spirit, ie zarathos". That would have been brilliant caused no continuity problems and just been a damn good way to go, but instead we get noble kale. Speaking of which, someone earlier was trying to make the point that there are no continuity probems or confusion with GR2. In doing so briefly explained the noble kale stuff......while conspicuously leaving out any reference to the medallion. Lets not forget that is also thrown into the mix. Look I've read the marvel encyclopedia that explains it all in detail and yes it is an explanation...but it sucks. It sounds like mush very unbelievable BS. Blaze was cut and dry and made sense and to follow it up wish what Mackie said he had in mind would have fit in nicely. They can still do that actually....and I hope they do.
All this IMHO of course.

Howard Mackie already explained to you that Ketch wasn't a ripoff of Blaze, why do you keep saying that?

 

[Riding Ghost]

Howard Mackie already explained to you that Ketch wasn't a ripoff of Blaze, why do you keep saying that?

HM said "There was no "ripping off" you cannot "rip off" what is given to you".
I took that to mean that HE did not rip off. And I agree that he didn't. As I explained in my response to him, I held Marvel responsible not him.

My whole point is that if someone is going to claim the movie and current series are ripoffs then we need to look at the more blatant ripoff in fairness.

The one thing that I did forget was that HM requested that the ripoff talk stopped, out of respect for him I wouldn't have posted this had I remembered that. Of course it is a 2 way street. Someone needs to stop saying that current stuff is ripdoff from vol 2 when as I've said, if anything was ripd...well you know my position.

Now if possible, I won't bring it up again.

 

[Cain Estrell]

Riding Ghost, I fully symphatize with you. When I first bought the 1st few DK issues I was under the perception (and hope) that it was simply a "reformed" Zarathos under that skull (The only possible link I could think of at that time). As an original fan of the 70's, I kinda wanted to see him somehow reform his evil ways (grow a little "kinder"). So yeah, IF Mackie had continued his run till the end, we might have gotten a much simpler, easier to understand origin. Instead, his replacement went all melo-dramatic & gave us one REALLY complicated plot about "descendants" & "family-inherited curses", which IMHO, has been used FAR TOO MANY TIMES in most works of fiction (specially horror/mystery novels). I thought maybe at least Ghost Rider would be spared of that archetype. *Sigh* Alas... it didn't. It sucks but there's nothing we can do about that now . What's done is done....

Y'know, all of this feels like "deja-vu" to me. I think these young'uns are now feeling EXACTLY the same thing I felt when I first bought vol. 2 and discovered that there wasn't (initially) a single reference to the original series- the very series I loved. Like them I felt betrayed & very dissapointed. I read on anyway, hoping a connection between the two would EVENTUALLY come up- and it DID! Not exactly how I wanted it to be, but... Ah! What the heck?! At least they were CONNECTED!

Here's what I see: Marvel's doing it again- they're into reintroducing GR to NEW generations of fans- fans who've only heard of him, recently (including ones attracted by the movie, no less). Maybe that's why they're making the new series look like it's initially got nothing to do with the previous ones. It's a clever strategy that allows new readers to understand the story better without getting all confused bout stuff they never knew, before. I say give it time. I've known Marvel's style for years; nothing they do surprises me, anymore. They'll eventually connect Vol. 5 and Vol. 2 together, you'll see . They'll just do so in such a slow, careful manner that actually gets the new readers to become interested in buying back-issues of past GR comics, instead of getting all-frustrated with all the constant details that make them go "". (I believe it's a more effective plan than simply "Ultimizing" GR, altogether.)

It's all a matter of patience, my young friends... PATIENCE t:! Just keep positive that things will all work out, in the end.... Capeesh?

 

[DoomRulz]

^ Good point. Let's hope that's what Marvel has in store for us.

 

[Riding Ghost]

Riding Ghost, I fully symphatize with you. When I first bought the 1st few DK issues I was under the perception (and hope) that it was simply a "reformed" Zarathos under that skull (The only possible link I could think of at that time). As an original fan of the 70's, I kinda wanted to see him somehow reform his evil ways (grow a little "kinder"). So yeah, IF Mackie had continued his run till the end, we might have gotten a much simpler, easier to understand origin. Instead, his replacement went all melo-dramatic & gave us one REALLY complicated plot about "descendants" & "family-inherited curses", which IMHO, has been used FAR TOO MANY TIMES in most works of fiction (specially horror/mystery novels). I thought maybe at least Ghost Rider would be spared of that archetype. *Sigh* Alas... it didn't. It sucks but there's nothing we can do about that now . What's done is done....

Y'know, all of this feels like "deja-vu" to me. I think these young'uns are now feeling EXACTLY the same thing I felt when I first bought vol. 2 and discovered that there wasn't (initially) a single reference to the original series- the very series I loved. Like them I felt betrayed & very dissapointed. I read on anyway, hoping a connection between the two would EVENTUALLY come up- and it DID! Not exactly how I wanted it to be, but... Ah! What the heck?! At least they were CONNECTED!

Here's what I see: Marvel's doing it again- they're into reintroducing GR to NEW generations of fans- fans who've only heard of him, recently (including ones attracted by the movie, no less). Maybe that's why they're making the new series look like it's initially got nothing to do with the previous ones. It's a clever strategy that allows new readers to understand the story better without getting all confused bout stuff they never knew, before. I say give it time. I've known Marvel's style for years; nothing they do surprises me, anymore. They'll eventually connect Vol. 5 and Vol. 2 together, you'll see . They'll just do so in such a slow, careful manner that actually gets the new readers to become interested in buying back-issues of past GR comics, instead of getting all-frustrated with all the constant details that make them go "". (I believe it's a more effective plan than simply "Ultimizing" GR, altogether.)

It's all a matter of patience, my young friends... PATIENCE t:! Just keep positive that things will all work out, in the end.... Capeesh?

Thanks for your comments, you definately understand where I'm coming from, Your description of your feelings during the ketch era were exactly mine as well and you are absolutely right, the ketch fans are now going through what we went through (and not handling it any better I might add

I also think your right about marvels most likely course. I do hope that their way of connecting everything is that it was Zarathos all along, I still think they can do that even now. Kale and all that could've been another trick by mephisto (always a handy excuse in situations like these). My problem has never really been with Ketch, I like Blaze better but I could deal with dan or another host, GR himself is my main concern.

A general question, I've seen the term retconing bantied about in reference to the current series. I see how it could be retconing vol.2 but some say it is retconing vol.1. I don't see how it is going against vol.1. How is it?

 

[DoomRulz]

A general question, I've seen the term retconing bantied about in reference to the current series. I see how it could be retconing vol.2 but some say it is retconing vol.1. I don't see how it is going against vol.1. How is it?

Well in the current series, Blaze is dealing with the Biblical Lucifer, and not the Mephisto we all know and love, so we have a character change there.

But mainly, it's creating the impression that Blaze was possessed from day one by what appears to be Noble Kale and not Zarathos. #5 goes into Blaze's background, and nowhere is the name Zarathos mentioned.

 

[DoomRulz]

Thanks for your comments, you definately understand where I'm coming from, Your description of your feelings during the ketch era were exactly mine as well and you are absolutely right, the ketch fans are now going through what we went through (and not handling it any better I might add

How are we not handling it well? Is it such a crime to be annoyed at a more popular character have his story elements stolen so that another can be glorified?

And if you don't think Ketch is more popular, how do you account for the fact that every Ghost Rider fan knows his story better than Blaze's?

 

[Reaper]

Well in the current series, Blaze is dealing with the Biblical Lucifer, and not the Mephisto we all know and love, so we have a character change there.

But mainly, it's creating the impression that Blaze was possessed from day one by what appears to be Noble Kale and not Zarathos. #5 goes into Blaze's background, and nowhere is the name Zarathos mentioned.

Pardon my interjection into this fasinating conversation-really- But I believe Satan was the term first used in the comics and was later changed to Mephisto.
As for who current ghost rider is
They haven't mentioned Noble Kales name either, at this point it is simply undetermined for sure where Way is going

 

[crazy sock]

at least when they did vol.2, vol.1 was completed and done. it took them about 9 years to finish up vol.2. they started the current series before they even printed out the last issue of vol.2. so one of the reasons im unhappy with the current series is that things were left unresolved in the 90s series when they decided to cancel it without even completing it.

 

[DoomRulz]

Pardon my interjection into this fasinating conversation-really- But I believe Satan was the term first used in the comics and was later changed to Mephisto.
As for who current ghost rider is
They haven't mentioned Noble Kales name either, at this point it is simply undetermined for sure where Way is going

True enough, but as far as the readers are concerned, we're assuming it's Noble Kale until we're told otherwise. Penance Stare plus the outfit=Noble Kale's power and look

You're right about Mephisto being referred to as Satan initially, but Mephisto has become his own character. So consequently some readers like myself don't think this is the Mephisto we know.

 

[Reaper]

True enough, but as far as the readers are concerned, we're assuming it's Noble Kale until we're told otherwise. Penance Stare plus the outfit=Noble Kale's power and look

To each his own I guess. Personally I'm assuming its zarathos until told otherwise. I read that it was zarathos during the hammer lane so I don't know why it would change now.

You're right about Mephisto being referred to as Satan initially, but Mephisto has become his own character. So consequently some readers like myself don't think this is the Mephisto we know.

Well mephisto-satan-lucifer.. ..I always considered all those cats interchangeable anyway. I think Marvel does too.

 

[crazy sock]

maybe in religion they can be considered interchangeable. but when it comes to something like comics, there are diff characters. mephisto is only mephisto. sure hes taken on diff forms, but hes always gone by mephisto. why would he have to escape from hell for when he already rules it?

and as for the hammerlane thing. i wouldnt hold any real connections to that series and the current one. that was just the first attempt at creating a new GR series that had Blaze as GR and no real ties to the 90s series. other than the same basic story of Blaze being GR again and having similar powers and look to the ketch GR, Hammerlanes story was diff. blaze wasnt in hell and they acknowledged that he had a wife and kids(who were missing still). hammerlane, RTD, and the all the series that are out now are all a result of the movie. if it werent for the movie GR would have been tucked away nice and safe from idiot writers and greedy marvel executives, and we could have waited for someone with enough sense to come along and have GR pop back in the marvelverse without being some big WTF.

 

[Cain Estrell]

How are we not handling it well? Is it such a crime to be annoyed at a more popular character have his story elements stolen so that another can be glorified?

And if you don't think Ketch is more popular, how do you account for the fact that every Ghost Rider fan knows his story better than Blaze's?

Doom, I hope you're not implying that we older, Blaze era fans are "mocking" you, or anything. Fact is, we symphatize with you, cause we've been through the same thing . As for your point that Ketch's story is more well known, well... "to each his own", there. I for one, have always prefered Blaze's more anti-heroic, easier to understand exploits, and I believe most of my generation (the ones who grew up with Blaze) feel the same thing as well. You grew up in Ketch's time, so you relate with him better. It's all a matter of "what time you were born", and "whose era you read first", my boy. Simple as that .

But I do understand you now. I still don't agree that a total reboot is the best solution... However, I want the sequel's plot to be soley based on the 70's series (with the basic look- and some references to -the current one). It's the only effective way to salvage what's good about the first movie (the element of "redemption" it hinted at), maintain a "modern feel" about it by keeping the biker-chain look, & avoid creating animosity with DK purists. I already proposed a good suggestion on Mr. Nick's board, in fact. Check it out if you want .... (Reaper already saw it, btw t

 

[DoomRulz]

Doom, I hope you're not implying that we older, Blaze era fans are "mocking" you, or anything. Fact is, we symphatize with you, cause we've been through the same thing . As for your point that Ketch's story is more well known, well... "to each his own", there. I for one, have always prefered Blaze's more anti-heroic, easier to understand exploits, and I believe most of my generation (the ones who grew up with Blaze) feel the same thing as well. You grew up in Ketch's time, so you relate with him better. It's all a matter of "what time you were born", and "whose era you read first", my boy. Simple as that .

But I do understand you now. I still don't agree that a total reboot is the best solution... However, I want the sequel's plot to be soley based on the 70's series (with the basic look- and some references to -the current one). It's the only effective way to salvage what's good about the first movie (the element of "redemption" it hinted at), maintain a "modern feel" about it by keeping the biker-chain look, & avoid creating animosity with DK purists. I already proposed a good suggestion on Mr. Nick's board, in fact. Check it out if you want .... (Reaper already saw it, btw t

I'm not suggesting you're mocking me/us (you in particular), I'm arguing what I'm arguing b/c most people on these forums anyway seem to be more familiar with Ketch's story. It's either in this thread or the other Ghost Rider 2 thread that people openly admit that 'more people know Ketch's story'.

If you prefer Blaze, good on you. There's nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is, if Blaze needs a fresh start on life, then Marvel needs 'let him do it on his own terms', and not have to merge his story with another character's.

 

[HAMACKIE]

<<Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to post here. It's really creators, writers, and artists, like yourself and Javier Saltares that keep me interested in the characters, and waiting for the next issue, or movie, to come out and find out a new story.

Thanks very much for all you've done for the Ghost Rider and Marvel Universe.>>



Thank YOU for the kind words.

<<On another note, in the "Where did it all go wrong?" thread in the "Ghost Rider" movie forum, there's a discussion going on about Skinner, and how he could be adapted to the big screen.

Since you created the character, I thought it would be cool to get your take on this. How would you like to see the character adapted to the screen? Are there are particular panels in the comics that you thought really screamed awesome, amazing, I'm Skinner and I know how to kick some serious butt, that you'd like to see on the big screen.

Skinner is a very interesting character, and would have to be done very carefully, if Sony decides to keep a PG-13 rating, but regardless, what is a live action Skinner to the creator?>>



Skinner was one of my favorite characters. He was a very complex and conflicted individual-- a real tortured soul. It would be a shame if one simply focused on him as a killer. I used to think of him as demonic version of Michael Corleone... he was trying to get out, but kept being drawn back in... and he happened to be very good at what he did. When he killed his wife and children, it was as much out of love as anything else. He knew if HE didn't do it, Lilith and the Llilin would do far worse to them when they found out about them. Look at any paenl drawn by Adam Kubert... that is Skinner. He is powerful, dangerous and deliberative. Yes... his powers tend to be graphic in nature, but NOT showing them on the screen would only add to their overall creepiness. Think about how much scarier the ALIEN was before we ever got to see it.



Hope that answered your question.



Howard

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

<<Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to post here. It's really creators, writers, and artists, like yourself and Javier Saltares that keep me interested in the characters, and waiting for the next issue, or movie, to come out and find out a new story.

Thanks very much for all you've done for the Ghost Rider and Marvel Universe.>>



Thank YOU for the kind words.

<<On another note, in the "Where did it all go wrong?" thread in the "Ghost Rider" movie forum, there's a discussion going on about Skinner, and how he could be adapted to the big screen.

Since you created the character, I thought it would be cool to get your take on this. How would you like to see the character adapted to the screen? Are there are particular panels in the comics that you thought really screamed awesome, amazing, I'm Skinner and I know how to kick some serious butt, that you'd like to see on the big screen.

Skinner is a very interesting character, and would have to be done very carefully, if Sony decides to keep a PG-13 rating, but regardless, what is a live action Skinner to the creator?>>



Skinner was one of my favorite characters. He was a very complex and conflicted individual-- a real tortured soul. It would be a shame if one simply focused on him as a killer. I used to think of him as demonic version of Michael Corleone... he was trying to get out, but kept being drawn back in... and he happened to be very good at what he did. When he killed his wife and children, it was as much out of love as anything else. He knew if HE didn't do it, Lilith and the Llilin would do far worse to them when they found out about them. Look at any paenl drawn by Adam Kubert... that is Skinner. He is powerful, dangerous and deliberative. Yes... his powers tend to be graphic in nature, but NOT showing them on the screen would only add to their overall creepiness. Think about how much scarier the ALIEN was before we ever got to see it.



Hope that answered your question.



Howard

Hey Mr Mackie, gotta say i enjoyed your contributions on the Comic Book documentary on the DVD.

 

[UltimateJustin]

Anything cool about GR comes from the 90's run. Read your torah.

 

[DoomRulz]

Anything cool about GR comes from the 90's run. Read your torah.

t:QFT

 

[Cain Estrell]

Anything cool about GR comes from the 90's run. Read your torah.

Except the main characters, DK & Kale. Other than the biker suit, Dan's nothing compared to Johnny, and the name "Noble Kale" is still notoriously known among GR veterans as the primary source of Vol. 2's eventual downfall from the GR continuity. Of course, that's just IMHO.....

Anyway, I found Mr. Mackie's explanation about Skinner truly fascinating. In a way, he and JB have something in common- they're both men who have been drawn to the life of darkness for the sake of their loved ones. I'd say Skinner would make a great rival for JB, if he'll ever return, someday......

 

[BURNFOREVER]

I think JB is undoubtely a much more strong character than DK, who also serves well as the Spirit of Vengeance in his 8 year-run.
But since JB was VERY poorly represnted on the screen, ruined by the wrong visons of Cage & MSJ, i really don´t care about a reboot at all.
I just want to see GR2 in 2009, if possible. It´s hard, butwho knows?
GR is the Spirit, the force, the character.
The host? Doesn´t really matter, in fact. Let´s focused on bring to GR2 some talented folks to write and direct a movie that doesn´t disapponted us so much, after all the years of wait.
Hulk with Norton and Punisher with Stevenson are being rebooted.
I think it´s maybe the solution.
A whole fresh start. Let´s move on.
If JB, Josh Holloway.
If DK, Jared Leto of Milo Ventimiglia.
Writing, Garth Ennis of Andrew Kevin Walker.
And directing, Alex Proyas or Stephen Norrington.
Oh, and please, some hardcore song on the soundtrack, maybe?
No more Carpenters, thx very much.
GR4EVR!!!

PS:MSJ, thank for all and good luck with "Grumpy old men 3" or something. I think it will be great.

 

[Cain Estrell]

I wouldn't really mind a reboot, myself, but the wise idea is to keep up with BLAZE! Believe it or not, this movie helped bring new fans to the GR comics (including my nephews). Now that the new series is on the path to a steady run, people are undoubtedly relating to Blaze, better. It's only natural that they're all expecting him to return- not some weak, troubled kid like Dan. Making a DK movie now will most-likely cause a backlash among the new fans....(and that spells BAD for GR's future ...). Be reminded, too, that there aren't THAT many of us loyal, longtime GR fans, left-- we need all the new breed we can get to keep his character alive & well.

If they're gonna have a reboot with Ketch, though, let it be a fresh, new start. The comic version's "descendant arc" ruined the series into a spiral, convoluted mess- so please, DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE FOR THE MOVIES!!! Why'd you think they chose to go with JB, anyway? That's cause his story/character makes sense, while Dan's is so confusing. A movie starring DK with a plot directly taken from Vol. 2 would only convolute it's entire story, just like what happened to the comics.....

 

[DoomRulz]

I wouldn't really mind a reboot, myself, but the wise idea is to keep up with BLAZE! Believe it or not, this movie helped bring new fans to the GR comics (including my nephews). Now that the new series is on the path to a steady run, people are undoubtedly relating to Blaze, better. It's only natural that they're all expecting him to return- not some weak, troubled kid like Dan. Making a DK movie now will most-likely cause a backlash among the new fans....(and that spells BAD for GR's future ...). Be reminded, too, that there aren't THAT many of us loyal, longtime GR fans, left-- we need all the new breed we can get to keep his character alive & well.

If they're gonna have a reboot with Ketch, though, let it be a fresh, new start. The comic version's "descendant arc" ruined the series into a spiral, convoluted mess- so please, DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE FOR THE MOVIES!!! Why'd you think they chose to go with JB, anyway? That's cause his story/character makes sense, while Dan's is so confusing. A movie starring DK with a plot directly taken from Vol. 2 would only convolute it's entire story, just like what happened to the comics.....

No one says you have to do the background arc. Just stick to the character and his adventures with Ghost Rider. I personally think they were more interesting that JB's b/c Ketch has a family to protect. Remember GR #5? Blackout kills his sister in the hospital and later on he kills Dan himself.

And Vol. 2 didn't fail due to a background story. It failed b/c Marvel insisted on taking the character to hell and back. It was only when Howard Mackie stopped writing the stories that the series took a turn for the worse; Ivan Velez wrote crap stories, I'm sorry.

 

[TwilightPro101]

Really curious about what it is that the studio wants to do with this one. I'd love to see Johnny return but I'm a huge fan of Dan.

 

[DoomRulz]

Really curious about what it is that the studio wants to do with this one. I'd love to see Johnny return but I'm a huge fan of Dan.

I wouldn't mind seeing Johnny return either, but I'd still call for a reboot. Do the Vol. 1 Johnny Blaze, not the current, retconned one.

 

[TwilightPro101]

Either way I'm game for a sequel. Just hope the threats are more of a threat this time around.