Growth of Superman's CHaracter in SR

Discussion in 'Superman Returns' started by mego joe, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. mego joe Registered

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    I picked up these quotes from a separate thread in danger of being closed b/c it was getting way off topic, but I wanted to continue the discussion here.

    As for the growth of his character, essentially, you’re saying the big change in Superman’s character was that he learned to say ‘goodbye.’ That doesn’t strike me as a significant change since it is something so common that he should already know to do this. It is so common that every child learns to say goodbye when they are leaving someplace or someone as one of his or her first words. For this to be the significant growth in an adult character is wildly ridiculous.



    Which is the best argument for a reboot I’ve ever heard. This storyline is not the way to go with Superman, it was a bad idea from the start and continuing down this path will only make it worse.



    Becoming a parent is not a reward, being a parent is rewarding. Superman did nothing in the conception of Jason or his treatment Lois to be proud of. His acts in fact were reprehensible. He doesn’t deserve a reward for them, but rather admonishment and punishment.


    At no point in the film were her public acts in question. IT’s his personal life which has been mischaracterized. And the fact that he acts differently is also an issue.



    But shouldn’t he have been a true hero at the beginning of the movie as well? At what point in his career has Superman not been a true hero? Isn’t it ridiculous to say that it took him 10 years into his career to become a ‘true hero?’
     
  2. matthooper Registered

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    This movie really doesn't deserve this kind of discusssion. It's really enough already. It's not Catwoman and it's not the Godfather. It's a forgotten film that no one besides the geeks (including myself) talk about in the real world. It's a bland, boring interpretation, that has a few moments of decent stuff.

    It will never get a direct sequel and when people talk about Superman in film in ten years, they will still talk about the Donner films.

    I refuse to believe the haters hate it as much as they claim, and I refuse to believe the lovers love it as much as they claim. I really think we argue about it just because we're bored.
     
  3. nintendo nerd Registered

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    Booooooooring.

    [​IMG]

    There are a lot of people that liked SR and want a sequel. Unfortunately, you are one of those losers who think their opinion is absolute and think its very important.

    I wouldn't be so sure that there won't be a sequel. I've heard there was a guy named Alan Horn at Routh's weeding. I think he is a very important person at WB. :oldrazz:
     
  4. nintendo nerd Registered

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    I love how SR haters always say it was a failure, when it made almost 400 million WW. FF,BB, DD, HULK,PUNISHER made way less than SR.
     
  5. SuperDaniel Registered

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    I`m going to paste my views on Superman`s character and growth from this other thread of the SR sequel.

    Singer confused the characters in SR and this has been a common thing a lot of fans and writers do too. They`re talking about Spider-man not Superman.

    I`m going to explain my point of view for one last time so everyone gets it.

    The Superman i know doesnt put one danger over the other. He tries to save everybody. NOW THAT IS TO BE HERO. He is not a good hero. HE IS THE ****ING BEST OF THEM ALL.

    The Superman i know is an example and ALWAYS does the right thing and when he doesnt, its always with good intentions because he always puts others before him. Superman is always sure he will do the right thing. He just knows it. He knows how to do it. He learned that from the Kents. The Kents arent just a normal couple. They are the ****ing best parents in this world.

    Lois & Clark relationship isnt like our relationship. They are an example of how couples should act.

    A Superman who`s afraid of saying goodbye is a selfish, irresponsible, immature person and that is a OUT OF CHARACTER.

    Clark Kent became a man and became a better person when he decided to use his powers for good. When a)Jonathan Kent died b)Tornado hits. Whatever u prefer, pre-crisis or post-crisis, is the same consequence. He becomes more than a man. An example.

    He`s not just human. He is SUPERman. The best human!

    The Superman i know WOULD Return to Krypton and WOULD explain to everybody why he`s leaving and especially to Lois.

    Yes, leaving without saying goodbye is a conflict. However, Bryan Singer created a conflict thats is unnaceptable for the character of SM, IMO.

    A conflict that fits the story he tried to tell but IT IS NOT a Superman story.

    A Superman conflict is, for example:

    -In STM, when a guy with all this powers realize he cant save everybody.

    -Or in SII to be human or use my powers for good?

    -Or to kill or not? like action comics#775, whatever happened to the man of tomorrow

    -How to make the world a better place = the never-ending battle, Superman Peace on Earth, etc.


    Bryan Singer is a great director but is not right for Superman

    Him and most of the world only understands Marvel characters. They are like us, relatable, make mistakes. DC characters are based in archetypes, myths.

    Singer Marvelized Superman, striped him away of the Super part of his character, personality IMO.

    I dont care if he redeems himself through the film. The Superman i grew up with and learned to care and admire just wouldnt pass through this journey because he wouldnt commit this childish mistake in the first place.

    Lets not get into the Richard/Jason/Whos the father problem in the future,Lois Lane without her spunkness, Dr Evil Luthor and his stupid goons, cut of pivotal scenes of the movie, the terrible costume and overall feeling of the movie.

    Superman is a though character to write and Bryan Singer and his dynamic duo failed miserably, IMO.
     
  6. SuperDaniel Registered

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    Now im going to paste my views on Lois Lane from the other thread too:

    Another problem i had with SR is Richard White. The premise of Richard White is that he is a human Superman. He is Superman without powers and there lies 2 main problems.

    1)One main problem is that having 2 people with the same qualities and characterisitcs eclipses one, no matter how well u write.

    Richard White totally stole the show from Superman as the hero of the movie, IMO. Simply because, they way it was presented, who was there to save Lois? Richard! Who saved Superman? Richard. Who won Lois heart? Richard. Who is Jasons real father, in the way raising goes? Richard.

    Theres a reason why Superman comics were created and still live on. Superman is supposed to be the one who enteirtain us, who is an exemple of a hero.

    The movie is called Superman, not Richard White. Whenever a contender for Superman was created, it was never him. It was always for nothing. So Richard is just a pointless character, IMO.

    If u making a movie to show the spirit of Superman, for example, like many good comics, such as World Without Superman, Superman Real World, etc, its ok for you to have Richard there. He is there, saving people but Superman is still the main character because Richard is using his spirit.

    But u cant have an antagonist to Superman that is him without powers and now i understsand what is MY biggest problem with SR besides what i said earlier and is the second problem:

    2)Singer never got Lois Lane right also.

    First of all, if u understand DC universe and a Superman story, there isnt supposed to be a human Superman. Because Superman is what he is because of the mix of 2 cultures. Krypton an Earth. His genes, his history, and his human heart and creation. Superman is there to be Jesus Christ, Moses, whatever u want. There can be only one. Yes, other heroes try to be as good but they arent Superman. Period. As far as men goes.

    Having said that, the human Superman is a Woman. IT IS LOIS LANE.

    By having Richard there, it just **** up the whole mythos. The triangle of two. If she stays with Superman and thats HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO END, it shows that she is just there as a Superman girlfriend for 60 years because of the powers, making Lois a superhero ****.

    To me, Lois and Clark are soul mates and the same. They have different personalities but they all want the same thing. They are in a neverending battle for truth, justice and the american way. Thats why Lois is a respected newspaper reporter, thats why she is Superman`s wife. Because SHE IS Superman without powers. She doesnt settle down and start a family because she is in this journey the same as Superman is in his. She is a woman of determination, who also stands againts injustice. When she cant handle, Superman is there to save her.

    In a few words, Singer, IMO, took away all the qualities that made the Superman story and history so good. He took way the triangle of two: Clark, Lois and Superman.

    When they try to reinvent, it was never sucessfull, same as SR. Singer had heart but never really understood the characters.

    Stick with the basics. Superman is the only hero, Luthor or whatever villain, Lois Lane, Jimmy, Perry White, the Kents. Dont mess with that.

    The greatest Superman stories are the ones that never messed with the basics. They are the ones worked with that in a GREAT way
     
  7. Cyrusbales Registered

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    We mainly see the events of SR from a third person perspective, hence his character being mysterious and all of this discussion. The level of discussion here is intended, because it's not all spelt out, because WE ARE NOT SUPERMAN, so we struggle to relate to him etc, from the writting to the camera angles deployed.
     
  8. El Payaso Registered

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    You know...

    I hate repeating myself all the time.

    :)
     
  9. mego joe Registered

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    I hope you are right about that.
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I do hate it as much as I claim.

    WHy keep posting about it? BEcause I did not want to hate it. I wanted it to be the best Superman film ever. Instead it was the worst. So, my interest is in what comes next- so I want to discuss where I want the next SUperman film to go- REBOOT!

    Only by continuing to discuss the shortcomings and horrible approach in SR, I am fighting for the future. I don't want the same mistakes made again.
     
  10. SuperDaniel Registered

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    I need the patience of a Superman to ignore this. Instead of being a smartass, why dont u try refuting some points in a decent conversation. You complain that i always complain for no reason. Gave you plenty of reasons why i dont like the movie. So whats ur point now?
     
  11. SuperDaniel Registered

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    And with that my friend, you said it all...Theres something that unites us all here. We just want the best Superman movie made. In 2006 they failed.

    It was my first Superman movie in the theater, for god`s sake! I wanted it to be perfect...You know...i could go on to comic book movies like Spider-man, Batman, etc and not like the movie. But not Superman...I wasnt expecting it to be such a disappointment. And I was one of the most fervorous supporters of this movie. I dragged all my friends. And they said..."thats it?"

    What can i answer to that?
     
  12. Angeloz Registered

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    I had the same reaction to "Superman IV". I loved the Junior Novel but hated the film. So I don't go in to films expecting to love it. I was surprised I did (love it). Although the clips gave a clue it might be good. It's why I went.

    Angeloz
     
  13. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    As i have said before, he has never been in love before, and whether he is an adult or not, this leads to him making the mistake of not saying goodbye. Its not like he did it to intentionally hurt Lois, IMO he did with the best of intentions, but his inexperience with relationships led to the mistake.



    I disagree, i want to see were Singer intends to take this story, as it could lead to something even more special IMO.

    Thats not to say i would be completely against a re-boot however, but it would depend on the talent involved, and they arent going to find a better modern day Superman than Brandon Routh IMO. Plus, with the decisions WB have been making lately, it doesnt give me much confidence in them choosing the right director, etc.



     
  14. mego joe Registered

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    But there's nothing in his character that would make him be that insensetive to her feeling and it goes against his belief of Justice. Lois has a right to know the man's she having sex with is leaving Earth for 5 years, maybe forever. Not telling her is his failing as a man. It is not what a genuinely good, kind and considerate person does. And that is what Superman is a genuinely good kind and considerate person, he's not messed up in the head about that kind of thing. That is not part of his characterization.
    He didn't do it with the best of intentions. His intention was to spare his own feelings of seeing Lois hurt, not sparing Lois's feelings. He doesn't say in the moive, "I did it so I wouldn't hurt you, Lois." HE says, "It was too difficult." I believe he also says he doesn't want to see Lois hurt. That is about him, not Lois. Lois is going to be hurt whether he tells her or not. NOt telling only spares HIS feelings. His only intention is to avoid HIS responsibility and spare HIS feelings. He never mentions LOis's feelings in his lame excuses.
    It started out as a stupid ideas and garbage it can only end the same way. SUperman as an absentee father is a stupid idea that is completely against character. Period.
    Can't argue with your take on WB's decisions. THey really don't seem like they know what they are doing. SInger's Superman film is the perfect example. THey just don't seem to know what to do with their properties, with the exception of Batman under Nolan. I do also have hope for Watchmen though. And V for Vendetta was good.



    Conceiving a child is the greatest responsibility you can have. THerefore it requires you for being responsible in your sexual relationships. If you conceive a child you are morally and ethically obligated to raise that child. To act in a manner which makes it impossible for you to be emotionally a part of that child's life and your partner's life is perhaps the greatest evil you can perpetrate upon another person. That's what Superman did when he did not say goodbye. Yes he deserves punishment, because there is no way he can EVER make up for this mistake.
    Then you disagree with the priority children should have in the world. You think that one's sexual desire is more important than the well being of a child or one's responsibility for raising one's child. Do you really disagree with that?
    WHy? Jason doesn't get a second chance to know who his father is from the beginning. Lois doesn't get a chance to know who the father of her child is from the beginning. Lois doesn't get a second chance to know that SUperman REALLY did care about her. THere are some life changing mistakes that don't allow for second chances.

    ANd the very fact that you've got this bifurcation of character in Superman is proof enough that his characterization in the movie is completely wrong.

    If I recall correctly the headlines extras on one of the DVD's have something like the following-

    September 1996- "I Spent the Night WIth Superman!" (Homage to his first appearance in Metropolis from S:TM.)

    June 2001- "Remains of KRypton found?"
    June 2001- "Where is Superman?"

    June 2006- "SUperman is Back"

    The wording may not be right, but that is the gist of it.
    But that is the SIlver SUrfer. That is who his character is. He didn't have any super powers to save his planet from Galactus. HE sacrificed himself and his very soul to save his world from destruction. He had no way to fight back. It was death for his planet or death for others. Silver Surfer isn't responsible for those other deaths. Galactus is going to devour planets no matte what. He saved who he could, his planet. He put his planet ahead of his own well being.

    Because that is not Superman's story. That is not who SUperman is. That is not who he is as a person. It is someone else's story, it's not SUperman's. The mistakes he makes in SR are not in keeping with who he is and the nature of his character. THe mistakes he makes in S:TM however are in keeping with his character.

    THe real part of being a hero is not about how you overcome mistakes. It is about putting others first. Something he could not do when it came to telling Lois Lane the truth about leaving. Even the Silver Surfer explained to Shala Bal why he was going with Galactus.

    Not all heroes are born out of mistakes. That is one kind of hero. Spider-Man is that kind of hero. Superman is not. Spider-Man learns tough lessons about responsibility and power and grows into being a hero after the tough lessons. SUperman is a hero b/c he was raised with the morals and values that allowed him to know what to do with his powers based. He didn't have to go through mistakes in order to learn tough lessons to grow into the role of a hero. He learned the same life lessons we all learn growing up, but his upbrining was special in that the Kents raised the right kind of person to be a her without having to go through the mistakes. Maybe you find the Spider-Man kind of hero more interesting, and that's fine, but you can't graft that characterization onto Superman and say that's Superman, because it is not. That's not who he is.

    Even Richard put Lois and Jason first when it came to taking them down to the hospital to see Superman. He was figuring it out he realized Lois still had feeling for SUperman and that Jason was Superman's son. HE was more heroic in that moment than SUperman was in the entire film. He did the right thing and put Lois and Jason first, knowing he could possibly lose his family. Much more heroic than leaving Lois for 5 years w/o saying goodbye.
     
  15. Angeloz Registered

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    Some of the headlines and the dates are:

    - "It Flies! Flying Man Soars Over Metropolis"
    Wednesday, June 12th 1996

    - "Caped Wonder Stuns City"
    Monday, June 17th 1996

    - "I Spent The Night With Superman"
    Wednesday, June 19th 1996

    - "Superman Foils Luthor"
    Wednesday, May 14th 1997

    - "Astronomers Discover Distant Planet"

    - "Is It Krypton?"
    Monday, August 16th 2000

    -"Where Has He Gone?"
    Friday, March 3rd 2000 (this is in the film and I know the above doesn't make sense unless they took awhile to work it out)

    - "Is He Coming Back?"
    Wednesday, November 15th 2000

    - "Will He Ever Return?"
    Friday, June 15th 2001

    - "The Man Of Steel Is Back!"
    Thursday, September 28th 2006 (in the film)

    That's just some of them. I wanted to be accurate.

    Angeloz
     
  16. mego joe Registered

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    I knew someone would be able to come up with the exact headlines, good job Angeloz.
     
  17. Angeloz Registered

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    Thanks. I didn't type all of them just the main ones.

    Angeloz
     
  18. The Joker_1000 Registered

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    Mego joe, Richard does not know Jason isn't his so but he just figured that is was only fair to let Lois see if Superman was right.
     
  19. mego joe Registered

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    I think it is suggested that he suspects, why else let Jason go in to see him too-

    Either way, it still makes Richard look like more of a man that SUperman.
     
  20. Mikelus Intellectualis

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    Mego Joe, beautifully done, a magnificent explanation of what the Superman character is really about. You and SuperDaniel explained everything perfectly, that Supes from SR is just a terrible characterization, is not who the real Superman is. Behaves more like the emoClark from Smallville, which is normal since he's not Superman yet.
     
  21. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    But was she having regular sex with him? Maybe it was just a one time thing were passion and love overtook responsibility, Superman is not above passion and love in the same way Lois isnt. Things can happen in the heat of the moment, and maybe they had sex once, realised it was a mistake, then he had to leave. We really dont know what their relationship was before he left.


    But it is clear he didnt WANT to hurt her, i have said this before countless times, he makes a mistake, a bad judgement call, and is punished for it, end of story.


    IMO it started out as a fantastic movie and story and has the potential to get better.


    IMO BB, SR and V4V were all great, its their decisions in the last 6 months that worry me most, Justice League sounds REALLY poor.


    So your saying everyone who ever makes a big mistake should be punished for the rest of their lives? Sorry, but i couldnt disagree more. And anyway, Superman WAS punished for his mistake, he lost the woman he loves, thats punishment enough for me.


    That part i dont disagree with, but as i have said before, judging from the suprise on Supermans face at the end, it possible he didnt know he could concieve with a human.


    Again i strongly disagree, the only people who dont deserve a 2nd chance IMO are murderers and rapists. To say that some people who make big mistakes (we are only human after all) is IMO (and i dont mean this to sound so harsh) ridiculous.

    I think i know my Superman pretty well know MJ, and the Superman i know, is more than capable of mistakes.



    I answerd this part in another thread.


    But couldnt that also be considered selfish? He is willing to let other planets die and suffer as long his planet is safe.



    Again i disagree, changing the course of history to satisfy his own needs and wiping the memory of the woman he loves are both selfish and a lot worse than what he does in SR IMO.

    And Superman put others first throughout SR.

    Yeah, because Spiderman and Superman share no similarites do they :whatever: :oldrazz: .

    I dont think Richard knows or suspects that Jason is Superman's son, and in that moment, Richard was very understanding to Lois (then again Superman was critical at the time). But he wasnt anywere near as heroic as Superman in SR IMO.

    Because Jason asked to go.

    In the end Mega Joe, we are never going to agree, so why bother anymore :yay: .
     
  22. mego joe Registered

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    I think the film suggest that they were in a relationship and that the backstory is not a complicated situation with sex, breakup etc....
    If SUperman doesn't want to hurt someone and he knows he will, he will do whatever he can to lesson the blow and make it easier on that person.

    Only be dropping Richard and Jason does it have a chance to improve.
    THe casting of JLA concerns me, but the story sounds like it will be fantastic, Sacrifice, OMAC all rolled into one JLA film that encompasses the death of Barry Allen as well!
    It all depends on the mistake.
    It's not about continued punishment, it's just one of those things that precludes one from ever feeling the same about him again. It's an 'oh, you're not the good person I thought you were.'

    Possible, but not likely based on what we do know from the 'vague history.'

    I wouldn't trust him in that situation again. He's made a mistake knowing it was wrong when he did it that has deeply affected Richard, Jason and Lois's lives in a hugely negative way that can never be reversed or atoned for. That just isn't SUperman and it's not someone I would want to trust or have a lot of respect for.

    But just not the kind of mistakes made in SR.


    I responded there as well.

    SS can't save everybody. NEither can SUperman. You save who you can. It only becomes selfish when you place your own well being physical or emotional ahead of someone else's physical or emotional well being. (Exactly what Superman did in SR btw.)
    Essentially you are saying that saving Lois's life was selfish and aleviating her pain was selfish and that it would have been BETTER for her to be dead and BETTER for her to have been an emotional basket case and that it wouldn't have been better for her to know why SUperman was leaving before he left for KRypton in SR.

    Then he should have been consistent and done it with Lois too.
    Not in the substance of their origins and how they became who they are. They are very different in that respect.

    It's very subtle. Maybe you should watch the movie again.
    Disagree. More noble, more upstanding and more sympathetic.

    Why let him go. HE's 4 years old. THe only reason that makes sense is that Richard suspected and understood it might be the last time Jason would have a chance to see his biological father.
    Every so often it becomes fun to discuss it again! :)
     
  23. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    To be honest, i dont think the movie suggests that at all, or anything else for that matter, i think until a sequel we can only speculate on what their relationship was.


    And in my view, this is what he tried to do with the decisions he made, he just got it wrong, simple as for me.

    Dropping those 2 would remove the chance to see more great drama, so i would like to see them stay.


    To be honest the whole movie concerns, its very likely that we wont get ANY character development within the movie at all.


    I agree, and the one's he made in SR were bad, but not so bad that he should be punished for the rest of his life.


    Just because a person makes a mistake doesnt mean they will do it again, and in Supermans case, i think its pretty certain that he has learned from the mistake and wont make it again.



    I dont see how you can say that, in the first 2 Reeve movies, was he ever told for certain that he could re-produce with a human?



    So you dont trust anyone who has ever made a mistake again?



    Disagree.




    I'll try and catch it sometime, been on other boards a lot lately.

    I dont believe that was Superman's intention though.


    He put others lives in danger by reversing the events to save Lois, not to mention, changing the course of history is not something Superman should be responsible for.

    As for the kiss, IMO he did it more for himself, so he wouldnt see Lois in pain and would have to deal with the consequences of his actions, not very heroic to me.



    He makes a mistake.


    True, but they are similar in many other ways.


    Ha ha, i think i have watched it enough, but watch the movie again, when Richard suggests going to the hospital, he doesnt once look at Jason, he only looks at Lois, meaning he did it for her only in my eyes.

    He was a good character, yes, but not as good as Superman.



    Sorry, i just didnt see this in the movie at all, he WANTED to go with his mother, In my view Richard let him go for Lois's sake, so she would have a loved one there with her for support, and Superman did save Jasons life, and Jason helped save his, THATS the main reason he let him go IMO.


    I dont see how, we never have, and never will agree.
     
  24. buggs0268 Registered

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    Nintendo, it is best to hear it from a director of another film that was the most anticipated film that year, made it's budget back and made more WW (1998 dollars we are talking about here) and made a billion in Merchandising (something SR's merchandising didn't even come close to half of that:

    Sr and Godzilla 1998 actually parallel each other in before release anticipation and expected B.O., then actual release B.O, and media perception after poor B.O.
     
  25. buggs0268 Registered

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    Actually not true. Before Lois, he was always in love with Lana Lang, and had a relationship with her.
     

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