Superman Returns Growth of Superman's CHaracter in SR

[mego joe]

To be honest, i dont think the movie suggests that at all, or anything else for that matter, i think until a sequel we can only speculate on what their relationship was.

I don't think a sequel will deal at all with what went before. I think the non-specific nature of it was intentional b/c there isn't any 'excuse' hiding in the past to make Superman look better. I think the approach was 'Superman is emotionally weak. Period.'

And in my view, this is what he tried to do with the decisions he made, he just got it wrong, simple as for me.

But he should know better in that situation than to do that.

Dropping those 2 would remove the chance to see more great drama, so i would like to see them stay.

But at the expense of the enjoyability of the franchise, and a dramatic aspect that is completely antithetical to the nature of SUperman's character.

To be honest the whole movie concerns, its very likely that we wont get ANY character development within the movie at all.

I don't think so, I think that the whole Batman/Superman/ Wonder Woman conflict will produce a great amount of Drama AND character development. Essentially what you're saying is that Batman won't learn from his distrust, Superman won't learn that sometime you have to cross a line to save others.

I agree, and the one's he made in SR were bad, but not so bad that he should be punished for the rest of his life.

I disagree. Kids come first period.

Just because a person makes a mistake doesnt mean they will do it again, and in Supermans case, i think its pretty certain that he has learned from the mistake and wont make it again.

But the mistake is out of character to begin with so it doesn't make sense to have a characterization or 'development' based around it. It's just a stupid story idea. Nothing can change that.

I dont see how you can say that, in the first 2 Reeve movies, was he ever told for certain that he could re-produce with a human?.

It's suggested as much if not spelled out in detail. MUch of what is in SR is suggested and subtle and not spelled out in detail, but it is still there.

So you dont trust anyone who has ever made a mistake again?

Certain mistakes, no.

Disagree.

LIke I didn't see that one coming!!!

I'll try and catch it sometime, been on other boards a lot lately.

Cool.

I dont believe that was Superman's intention though.

HOw can it not be, it's what is said in the movie, isn't it? You've seen it over 50 times- what is direct dialogue in the movie that would contradict it?

He put others lives in danger by reversing the events to save Lois, not to mention, changing the course of history is not something Superman should be responsible for.

Who did he endanger? By reversing time to before the earthquake he saves EVERYBODY including Lois instead of EVERYBODY except Lois.

As for the kiss, IMO he did it more for himself, so he wouldnt see Lois in pain and would have to deal with the consequences of his actions, not very heroic to me.

But that's not how it's presented in the movie.

That interpretation misses the whole approach to SUperman in the DOnner films. The approach there is that he IS better, he DOES know better b/c he IS Superman.

He makes a mistake.

An out of character mistake.

True, but they are similar in many other ways.

The difference stand out enough to differentiate them in my opinion.

Ha ha, i think i have watched it enough, but watch the movie again, when Richard suggests going to the hospital, he doesnt once look at Jason, he only looks at Lois, meaning he did it for her only in my eyes.

I took it to mean he knew Jason was Superman's son.

He was a good character, yes, but not as good as Superman.

Better than SUperman.

Sorry, i just didnt see this in the movie at all, he WANTED to go with his mother, In my view Richard let him go for Lois's sake, so she would have a loved one there with her for support, and Superman did save Jasons life, and Jason helped save his, THATS the main reason he let him go IMO.

I felt the film suggested more.

I dont see how, we never have, and never will agree.

Yet you responded so I'm assuming you get something out of it too...

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Actually not true. Before Lois, he was always in love with Lana Lang, and had a relationship with her.

Seemingly not in Singers continuity, it was mentioned in various interviews on the T.V by both Routh and Bosworth that Lois was Supermans first love.

I don't think a sequel will deal at all with what went before. I think the non-specific nature of it was intentional b/c there isn't any 'excuse' hiding in the past to make Superman look better. I think the approach was 'Superman is emotionally weak. Period.'

I dont think that was the approach at all, they wanted to give him a problem he couldnt fix with his powers, this was the approach all along.

But he should know better in that situation than to do that.

And by the end of the movie, he did

But at the expense of the enjoyability of the franchise, and a dramatic aspect that is completely antithetical to the nature of SUperman's character.

But this is subjective MJ, i enjoy the movie immensely, and so do many others, who also dont think he was out of character.

I don't think so, I think that the whole Batman/Superman/ Wonder Woman conflict will produce a great amount of Drama AND character development. Essentially what you're saying is that Batman won't learn from his distrust, Superman won't learn that sometime you have to cross a line to save others.

I dont see how this can be achieved in a 2 hour movie when all of the other JL member need screen time, as well as Maxwell Lord and the OMACS.

I disagree. Kids come first period.

Dont know what we disagreed about but agree with the bolded part.

But the mistake is out of character to begin with so it doesn't make sense to have a characterization or 'development' based around it. It's just a stupid story idea. Nothing can change that.

I dont think its a stupid story idea though and neither do many other people, i like the fact that Superman cant solve this problem by punching it and i like the drama in the movie. An again i dont find the mistake to out of character for this version of Superman.

It's suggested as much if not spelled out in detail. MUch of what is in SR is suggested and subtle and not spelled out in detail, but it is still there.

But suggestions can be interpreted differently, the surprise on Supermans face at the end of SR suggests to me that he was not certain he could re-produce with a human.

Certain mistakes, no.

In Supermans own words from John Bryne's Man Of Steel Vol.2 "I think and feel as a human being, not as a Kryptonian."

Therefore he is flawed like one.

LIke I didn't see that one coming!!!

You should have!t:

Cool.

Until another Superman movie is greenlight, there isnt nothing much to discuss at the moment on here, hence the board being dead.

HOw can it not be, it's what is said in the movie, isn't it? You've seen it over 50 times- what is direct dialogue in the movie that would contradict it?

But dialogue doesnt tell the whole story of SR, facial expression tell a lot of it also.

Who did he endanger? By reversing time to before the earthquake he saves EVERYBODY including Lois instead of EVERYBODY except Lois.

If the first time, he could save everyone else but not Lois, how by reversing time does then suddenly have time to save Lois and everybody else in the same amount of time he had before? Not to mention he stayed with Lois for some time.

But that's not how it's presented in the movie.

That interpretation misses the whole approach to SUperman in the DOnner films. The approach there is that he IS better, he DOES know better b/c he IS Superman.

Well that is not Superman to me i'm afraid, it isnt up to him to decide our lives, he isnt God, he is human in nature, and the best Superman stories present him in that way.

An out of character mistake.

Guess what.........................i disagree .

The difference stand out enough to differentiate them in my opinion.

But they are similar in many ways.

I took it to mean he knew Jason was Superman's son.

1st time i watched it i did as well, but its not so clear upon repeat viewings.

Better than SUperman.

Disagree.

I felt the film suggested more.

I dont anymore, in fact now it is pretty obvious to me that he does for the benefit of Lois and no one else.

Yet you responded so I'm assuming you get something out of it too...

I dont actually , i used to, but now i dont see the point, as in all honesty, we are simply never going to agree.

 

[LexCorp]

I really did not see much growth in this film. Maybe there was a slight hint that Superman is preparing himself to be a father????? But that is so very slight and yet to be proven I would not count that towards growth at all in SR.

What else did Supes do to show that he learned or change in the film to count as growth? Very little I say. From the moment he came back he put his suit on and went back to work saving the day. He still handles his relationships with humans the same way...even Lois. Not being able to say what he means etc..

Hmm not much growth if you ask me.

 

[mego joe]

I really did not see much growth in this film. Maybe there was a slight hint that Superman is preparing himself to be a father????? But that is so very slight and yet to be proven I would not count that towards growth at all in SR.

What else did Supes do to show that he learned or change in the film to count as growth? Very little I say. From the moment he came back he put his suit on and went back to work saving the day. He still handles his relationships with humans the same way...even Lois. Not being able to say what he means etc..

Hmm not much growth if you ask me.

THat's how I see it too.

 

[LexCorp]

THat's how I see it too.

Indeed....

Spent too long away from the Superman threads.

You know what Lex did not do much either. His whole plan in SR seemed more to do with revenge than real profit or gain. He just wanted power. The power of Kryptonian tech.

 

[mego joe]

Indeed....

Spent too long away from the Superman threads.

You know what Lex did not do much either. His whole plan in SR seemed more to do with revenge than real profit or gain. He just wanted power. The power of Kryptonian tech.

To me Lex's whole storyline was completely boring. It moved too slowly and it just wasn't interesting. It seemed what he really wanted was LAND- again! Power, as well but through the creation of land and using Kryptonian tech as a defense. Now if he had succeeded to an extent and Superman had to actually take him down at THAT point, that would have been more interesting than stopping another Earthquake.

 

[LexCorp]

To me Lex's whole storyline was completely boring. It moved too slowly and it just wasn't interesting. It seemed what he really wanted was LAND- again! Power, as well but through the creation of land and using Kryptonian tech as a defense. Now if he had succeeded to an extent and Superman had to actually take him down at THAT point, that would have been more interesting than stopping another Earthquake.

I would have liked to see Lex steal the crystals and build a land mass before Superman returned. He could then have had time to teraform it and give it Kryptonian defenses. Which would have been more fun to watch.

 

[mego joe]

I would have liked to see Lex steal the crystals and build a land mass before Superman returned. He could then have had time to teraform it and give it Kryptonian defenses. Which would have been more fun to watch.

Or what if he'd returned to a world that LEx was PResident in or just World Tyrant?

 

[LexCorp]

Or what if he'd returned to a world that LEx was PResident in or just World Tyrant?

Indeed. I mean what was Lex doing for five years? Why did it take him so long to do what he did. The guy had very bad timing.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I really did not see much growth in this film. Maybe there was a slight hint that Superman is preparing himself to be a father????? But that is so very slight and yet to be proven I would not count that towards growth at all in SR.

What else did Supes do to show that he learned or change in the film to count as growth? Very little I say. From the moment he came back he put his suit on and went back to work saving the day. He still handles his relationships with humans the same way...even Lois. Not being able to say what he means etc..

Hmm not much growth if you ask me.

Not much growth? So the Superman at the end of the movie was exactly the same as he was at the start? No he wasnt, he had grown, learned, and become a better person from it.

Was the Superman at the end who willingly threw himself in harm's way the same Superman who hesitated in the bar when the plane crisis was announced on T.V? No

Was the same Superman who apologised to Lois for leaving and made sure he said 'Bye Lois' when he thought he was going away again the same one from the start who came back from a long absence without saying goodbye and expected Lois to be hunky dory? No

Was the Superman that chose to go back and help Metropolis instead of saving the life of the woman he loves the same one who flew to Lois's house near the start to look upon her when he could have been doing other things? No.

Was the same Superman who risked his life to save Earth by getting rid of New Krypton the same Superman who left Earth for Krypton's possible remains, partly because he felt lonely? No

I could go on and on LC about the various examples of Supermans growth in the movie, the fact of the matter is, he was a different and better person at the end of SR than he was at the start, and he had finally found his place with Mankind.

If thats not growth i dont know what is.

 

[LexCorp]

Not much growth? So the Superman at the end of the movie was exactly the same as he was at the start? No he wasnt, he had grown, learned, and become a better person from it.

Was the Superman at the end who willingly threw himself in harm's way the same Superman who hesitated in the bar when the plane crisis was announced on T.V? No

Was the same Superman who apologised to Lois for leaving and made sure he said 'Bye Lois' when he thought he was going away again the same one from the start who came back from a long absence without saying goodbye and expected Lois to be hunky dory? No

Was the Superman that chose to go back and help Metropolis instead of saving the life of the woman he loves the same one who flew to Lois's house near the start to look upon her when he could have been doing other things? No.

Was the same Superman who risked his life to save Earth by getting rid of New Krypton the same Superman who left Earth for Krypton's possible remains, partly because he felt lonely? No

I could go on and on LC about the various examples of Supermans growth in the movie, the fact of the matter is, he was a different and better person at the end of SR than he was at the start, and he had finally found his place with Mankind.

If thats not growth i dont know what is.

Maybe a slight difference but no IMO no real growth. Lets look at your points.

1. He did not hesitate in the bar more so waited for the best time to leave undetected. Besides this is not an example of growth he tries to save the day in both cases with the same approach.

2. He says sorry. Not good enough he already knows how to do that!

3. He can do both at the same time he is that fast! No way did he even have to sweat and even think about it.

4. Meh his home is Earth always will be always has been that is where his heart is.

He already had his place in mankind......if anything the story we were given in SR makes it look like Superman grew backwards. Became an idiot really.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Maybe a slight difference but no IMO no real growth. Lets look at your points.

There was plenty of growth IMO.

1. He did not hesitate in the bar more so waited for the best time to leave undetected. Besides this is not an example of growth he tries to save the day in both cases with the same approach.

He does hesitate you can see it clearly, if he was simply waiting for the right moment to leave why does look down, close his eyes and shake his head?

He hesitates, he doesnt want to come back as Superman at that point, but he no choice, people were in danger.

If he was just waiting for the right moment to leave he could have left straight away, you can clearly see everyone is looking at the T.V.

2. He says sorry. Not good enough he already knows how to do that!

Its not just about saying sorry though, at first, he didnt realise how badly he screwed up, he garners this throughout the movie and apologises, and makes sure he doesnt make the same mistake again.

3. He can do both at the same time he is that fast! No way did he even have to sweat and even think about it.

Superman had no clue what awaited him in Metropolis, he had no indication that he would be able to do both and he did think about it. Thats he looks back at Metropolis and back towards Lois's location. For all he knew Metropolis could been on the verge of complete collapse he could be there for days on end trying to rescue people.

4. Meh his home is Earth always will be always has been that is where his heart is.

Its obviously not were his heart is in SR, the main reason he left was to help potential survivors but its also clearly indicated in the movie he was also lonely and was seeking others like him.

He already had his place in mankind......if anything the story we were given in SR makes it look like Superman grew backwards. Became an idiot really.

He grew up, finally became a man and realised the resposibiliy he has to humanity and now he has someone in Jason that he can always relate to.

If he already had his place in mankind, he wouldnt have left.

 

[mego joe]

He grew up, finally became a man and realised the resposibiliy he has to humanity and now he has someone in Jason that he can always relate to.
.

This right here is part of the problem. He's already supposed to be SuperMAN. Not Superboy, not pre-Superman Clark. He's already been Superman for a significant period of time. He's at least 30 years old and he FINALLY becomes a man? That's just ridiculous. He should have already learned all these lessons at this point in his life. Make a Superboy or teenage Clark film if you want to tell a coming of age story. But if it's Superman, make him a MAN.

 

[mego joe]

If he already had his place in mankind, he wouldnt have left.

If that is true you are saying it was wrong for him to leave. It wasn't, it was just irresponsible and immature to leave the way he did.

Going to Krypton was the right thing to do b/c he has a connection to his heritage and still feels a sense of obligation to helping Kryptonians if he can. He didn't leave b/c he felt like he could make a better life there and 'fit in.' He left b/c he wanted to help. His mistake was not in going to Krypton, but rather in the way he left.

If you think the mistake was simply going to Krypton, then you certainly don't understand the character. The mistake was in the way he left.

However, given SInger's understanding of the character, it is perfectly logical to think that he doesn't get that aspect of SUperman's character either.

 

[Mikelus]

This right here is part of the problem. He's already supposed to be SuperMAN. Not Superboy, not pre-Superman Clark. He's already been Superman for a significant period of time. He's at least 30 years old and he FINALLY becomes a man? That's just ridiculous. He should have already learned all these lessons at this point in his life. Make a Superboy or teenage Clark film if you want to tell a coming of age story. But if it's Superman, make him a MAN.

Exactly, Routh's Superman was more like the Clark Kent from Smallville, full of angst, unsecured...but SV Clark is just 21 years old, not 30!
It seems to me that SR fans are happy with any movie that has "angsty drama" and don't care about the many details that Singer got wrong, which shows lack of depth and understanding of the character.

 

[Dr. Fate]

This right here is part of the problem. He's already supposed to be SuperMAN. Not Superboy, not pre-Superman Clark. He's already been Superman for a significant period of time. He's at least 30 years old and he FINALLY becomes a man? That's just ridiculous. He should have already learned all these lessons at this point in his life. Make a Superboy or teenage Clark film if you want to tell a coming of age story. But if it's Superman, make him a MAN.

Exactly.

 

[StylishHokie21]

This right here is part of the problem. He's already supposed to be SuperMAN. Not Superboy, not pre-Superman Clark. He's already been Superman for a significant period of time. He's at least 30 years old and he FINALLY becomes a man? That's just ridiculous. He should have already learned all these lessons at this point in his life. Make a Superboy or teenage Clark film if you want to tell a coming of age story. But if it's Superman, make him a MAN.

You're right. This movie reminds me of those Superboy comics.

 

[mego joe]

You're right. This movie reminds me of those Superboy comics.

AHH, I DON'T want to imagine pre-Crisis Superboy getting Lana pregnant! DOH!!

 

[El Payaso]

This right here is part of the problem. He's already supposed to be SuperMAN. Not Superboy, not pre-Superman Clark. He's already been Superman for a significant period of time. He's at least 30 years old and he FINALLY becomes a man? That's just ridiculous. He should have already learned all these lessons at this point in his life. Make a Superboy or teenage Clark film if you want to tell a coming of age story. But if it's Superman, make him a MAN.

Yeah. A man makes mistakes but is able to redeem himself and say I'm sorry.

To be imperfect and to be able to rectify is part of being a man.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

If that is true you are saying it was wrong for him to leave. It wasn't, it was just irresponsible and immature to leave the way he did.

Going to Krypton was the right thing to do b/c he has a connection to his heritage and still feels a sense of obligation to helping Kryptonians if he can. He didn't leave b/c he felt like he could make a better life there and 'fit in.' He left b/c he wanted to help. His mistake was not in going to Krypton, but rather in the way he left.

If you think the mistake was simply going to Krypton, then you certainly don't understand the character. The mistake was in the way he left.

However, given SInger's understanding of the character, it is perfectly logical to think that he doesn't get that aspect of SUperman's character either.

I never said him leaving for Krypton was the wrong thing to do, i have never said that and never will MJ, you should know this.

His main reason for leaving was to help potential survivors, but as well as that, he was feeling lonely on earth and i think part, PART of his motivation for going to Krypton was to find others like him, but not the main reason.

Exactly, Routh's Superman was more like the Clark Kent from Smallville, full of angst, unsecured...but SV Clark is just 21 years old, not 30!
It seems to me that SR fans are happy with any movie that has "angsty drama" and don't care about the many details that Singer got wrong, which shows lack of depth and understanding of the character.

Are you ever going to get out of that box you live in were everyone thinks like you?

People like the movie, deal with it, i know plenty about Superman, after reading 28 Graphic Novels, i think i know plenty thanks. But you keep posting ignorant comments, go ahead.

Yeah. A man makes mistakes but is able to redeem himself and say I'm sorry.

To be imperfect and to be able to rectify is part of being a man.

Exactly, in SR we get a Superman that is relatable, and grows as a character, thats what i love about the movie.

 

[mego joe]

Yeah. A man makes mistakes but is able to redeem himself and say I'm sorry.

To be imperfect and to be able to rectify is part of being a man.

The thing is, it is impossible to redeem the mistakes he made.

 

[mego joe]

I never said him leaving for Krypton was the wrong thing to do, i have never said that and never will MJ, you should know this.

Seems to me you were indicating that it was OK for him to leave b/c he 'didn't have a place in mankind.' I was saying that has nothing to really do with 'why' he left. Whether or not he felt he had a place in mankind it was the right thing to do. His error was in his insensitivity to Lois when he abandonned his moral and ethical obligations in favor of his own feelings.

His main reason for leaving was to help potential survivors, but as well as that, he was feeling lonely on earth and i think part, PART of his motivation for going to Krypton was to find others like him, but not the main reason.

Didn't seem to be what you indicated above.

Are you ever going to get out of that box you live in were everyone thinks like you?

I live in it everyday- but we're really talking about understanding SUperman's character, not my view of the world.

SUperman's not an 'angsty drama' character. That's just the wrong approach for SUperman. SPider-Man, OK. Batman, Ok. SUperman, WRONG.

People like the movie, deal with it, i know plenty about Superman, after reading 28 Graphic Novels, i think i know plenty thanks. But you keep posting ignorant comments, go ahead.

I still don't see how after reading all those Superman comics you can't see he inherent inaccuracies in Singer's portrayal of SUperman.

Exactly, in SR we get a Superman that is relatable, and grows as a character, thats what i love about the movie.

THe only relatable character in SR is Richard. SUperman is an immature, irresponsible jerk who only 'grows up' at the age of thirty after making a mistake of a lifetime and hurting the woman he loves and his son. He's a dissaster.

 

[LexCorp]

He grew up, finally became a man and realised the resposibiliy he has to humanity and now he has someone in Jason that he can always relate to.

If he already had his place in mankind, he wouldnt have left.

That's just not correct at all. Superman has always had a place in mankind. He did not grow up and become a man in this film he was already a man when he left. The only way I can accept that is if SR was a film in it's own right with no connection to any other story that came before it. But if that is true then how do we know when Supes and Lois did it etc...

Flaws everywhere with this film.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Seems to me you were indicating that it was OK for him to leave b/c he 'didn't have a place in mankind.' I was saying that has nothing to really do with 'why' he left. Whether or not he felt he had a place in mankind it was the right thing to do. His error was in his insensitivity to Lois when he abandonned his moral and ethical obligations in favor of his own feelings.


Didn't seem to be what you indicated above.

I have always stated in our discussions that the main reason Superman left for Krypton was to help potential survivors. I have always said this in our discussions so why you think i would suddenly state otherwise is beyond me.

I live in it everyday- but we're really talking about understanding SUperman's character, not my view of the world.

SUperman's not an 'angsty drama' character. That's just the wrong approach for SUperman. SPider-Man, OK. Batman, Ok. SUperman, WRONG.

Okay MJ, dont have a clue why you thought this part related to you when i clearly quoted Mikelus.

I still don't see how after reading all those Superman comics you can't see he inherent inaccuracies in Singer's portrayal of SUperman.

Sorry but i dont see any inaccuracies, modernisations, yes, interpretations, yes, slight changes, yes. But sorry i dont see inherent inaccuracies. No more than there has been in the comics and previous movies anyhow.

THe only relatable character in SR is Richard. SUperman is an immature, irresponsible jerk who only 'grows up' at the age of thirty after making a mistake of a lifetime and hurting the woman he loves and his son. He's a dissaster.

This is your opinion and thats fair enough, but i %100 disagree with it.

That's just not correct at all. Superman has always had a place in mankind. He did not grow up and become a man in this film he was already a man when he left. The only way I can accept that is if SR was a film in it's own right with no connection to any other story that came before it. But if that is true then how do we know when Supes and Lois did it etc...

Flaws everywhere with this film.

What information are you basing these accusations on LC? This isnt the comis, this is the movie-verse, so Superman doesnt necessarily have a place in mankind at all.

In the story of SR, Superman felt lonely, this is practically spelled out in the first half of the movie. If he felt lonely, he obviously didnt feel he had his place in mankind.

 

[LexCorp]

I have always stated in our discussions that the main reason Superman left for Krypton was to help potential survivors. I have always said this in our discussions so why you think i would suddenly state otherwise is beyond me.




Okay MJ, dont have a clue why you thought this part related to you when i clearly quoted Mikelus.





Sorry but i dont see any inaccuracies, modernisations, yes, interpretations, yes, slight changes, yes. But sorry i dont see inherent inaccuracies. No more than there has been in the comics and previous movies anyhow.



This is your opinion and thats fair enough, but i %100 disagree with it.



What information are you basing these accusations on LC? This isnt the comis, this is the movie-verse, so Superman doesnt necessarily have a place in mankind at all.

In the story of SR, Superman felt lonely, this is practically spelled out in the first half of the movie. If he felt lonely, he obviously didnt feel he had his place in mankind.

So you say this movie stands in it's own right without any kind of backstory or other mediums influence yes?

In that case why have a Superman that is not himself? It was not an origin story so why have the character go through a growing period, especially when the growing period is about problems he should have dealt with years ago.