Guardians of the Galaxy: General Discussion & Speculation Thread - Part 3

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[McSir]

Fix'd

Ok. Two reasons.

 

[Mr. Dent]

It does make the movie more personal and intimate. You're talking about pitting the arch enemies of The Avengers on one team against them. It's bound to be more personal for them that way, there's really nothing else it can be at that point when you get people who have literal personal vendettas against the heroes.

I don't think Thanos assembling the Masters would be out of his role. He's been watching the Avengers, and seeing as how they've repelled his army they've proven themselves a powerful enemy. Thanos wouldn't want the Avengers and the Guardians on his tail, so it makes sense that he'd secretly round up the Avengers' enemies to provide them with a threat while he achieved his goal. The Masters wouldn't even have to know Thanos was the one that rounded them up.

He's the one who would likely have access to gathering Red Skull, potentially Malekith and/or Kurse, Abomination, Crossbones, etc. I also don't think it would be shoehorning the Guadians and Thanos, since Thanos also ties with the Masters and the arrival of the Guardians makes sense when things get horrible.

You're just repeating the same thing you said before without addressing my criticisms.

That being the case, I disagree and think your idea just doesn't fit Thanos' character. Lets just leave it at that.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

You're just repeating the same thing you said before without addressing my criticisms.

That being the case, I disagree and think your idea just doesn't fit Thanos' character. Lets just leave it at that.

I didn't repeat what I said, I went more in-depth with what I said while also addressing your criticisms. If you read my post and yours regarding the matter, you will see what I've addressed most if not all of your criticisms in the post you quoted. Yeah we can leave it at that, but don't make it seem like I've been ignoring what you said.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Them having individual vendettas against the Avengers doesn't make it more personal and intimate, it just makes the cast unnecessarily big. An Avengers vs Thanos story is much more intimate and personal, because it's the Avengers vs. one villain. If it's the Avengers vs a bunch of their individual villains, then that would serve more to split the story up and make it less intimate to the team itself and more about the characters individually...which is what their films are for.

You did not address this, which was the crux of my contention. You just repeated what you said before. That's what I'm talking about. Granted, you did go further into detail, as you said, but you didn't give me a reason why your idea stands up to what I said.

And I do feel like having the Guardians come in at the end along with Thanos fighting the Avengers after the MoE are dealt with would feel very shoehorned. The Guardians should be introduced early on in the film to make the film flow well...just having them pop up out of nowhere in the third act would be horrible, especially if you hadn't watched the Guardians before A2, which I'm sure will be the case for A LOT of the audience.

 

[cherokeesam]

Dark Raven wrote:

And why should it be Cap vs Crossbones, Iron Man vs Mandarin etc? I've said before that what was fun about both the comics and the Avengers movie was how one hero's villain becomes another hero's villain. So in The Avengers, we saw Cap fighting Loki, and then later on Iron Man and Hulk fighting him.

With the Masters of Evil, we could get Cap vs Abomination (to see who is the better super soldier), Thor vs the Mandarin, Iron Man vs Crossbones and Hulk vs Kurse just as an example, although there can be any other combination. Just thinking in terms of round 2 for each hero is very limited thinking.

People in this thread have been quoting the rationale for an MoE as "personal vendettas against each of the Avengers." If that's the case, then it *would* be simply "Round 2," because none of those villains have any personal investment in the other Avengers. Crossbones hates Cap; Mandarin hates Tony; etc.

If you're looking for the villains to team up for some reason *other* than a personal vendetta, then you've got an even more difficult story to build around how and why baddies from different parts of not just the planet, but the universe would have the time or opportunity or inclination to get together to bum-rush the Avengers.

ThePowerCosmic wrote:

I don't think Thanos assembling the Masters would be out of his role. He's been watching the Avengers, and seeing as how they've repelled his army they've proven themselves a powerful enemy. Thanos wouldn't want the Avengers and the Guardians on his tail, so it makes sense that he'd secretly round up the Avengers' enemies to provide them with a threat while he achieved his goal. The Masters wouldn't even have to know Thanos was the one that rounded them up.

He's the one who would likely have access to gathering Red Skull, potentially Malekith and/or Kurse, Abomination, Crossbones, etc. I also don't think it would be shoehorning the Guadians and Thanos, since Thanos also ties with the Masters and the arrival of the Guardians makes sense when things get horrible.

I think you're completely misreading Thanos' take on The Avengers, on The Battle of New York, on Loki, on the Chitauri, and on Earth in general.

First off, the Chitauri are not "Thanos' army." They're little more than a group of mercenaries in Thanos' employ, that he loaned out to Loki for "Reindeer Games'" little playtime. They're obviously not a particularly powerful army, and certainly not the type of army Thanos himself would field in battle.

In other words: Thanos doesn't give a **** that the Chitauri got defeated.

And he doesn't care *how* they got defeated, either. Yes, the Avengers proved powerful enough and resourceful enough to protect this little backwater planet, and it was probably enough to make Thanos raise an eyebrow. Does that mean he's afraid of them? Hell no. Does that mean he wants to take over/destroy Earth to remove their threat? Hell no. Does that mean he would even need to assemble a rag-tag band of villains who've already lost individually to at least one Avenger to take them down? Puh-leeeeeez. Thanos don't need no washed-up has-beens. He could wipe the MCU Avengers out with a wave of his hand; what's he need to crib together a Loser Brigade for....?

Loki's expedition was nothing but a diversion. Thanos doesn't give a crap about anything on Earth; he has zero interest in it at this point. What he *does* want is on Asgard. So he manipulated Loki into a mission that he knew the God of Mischief would fail, so that he could maneuver the Cosmic Cube into place on Asgard to facilitate an invasion of Odin's Treasury to get the Gauntlet, the one thing that he DOES care about.

Darthphere wrote:

I really can't see how someone wouldn't want to see a supervillain team up.

Marvel Studios doesn't have a great track record when it comes to villains. Congrats to Tom Hiddleston for winning "Best Villain" at the MTV Movie Awards recently, but Loki is really the only MCU villain who's attracted even the slightest attention. Do you believe there's a strong demand to see a bunch of poorly-received villains come back from their previous defeats to take another ill-fated swing at the heroes, only to get their butts handed to them again....?

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I could give two ****s about the Masters of Evil. Save those guys for the 2020's/Phase 4 so we have a good selection of villains to choose from. Avengers needs Kang and Ultron as big bads while the solo films establish a wider pool to draw from. *Then* introduce the klik of previously-defeated but vengeful group of villains.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

ThePowerCosmic wrote:



I think you're completely misreading Thanos' take on The Avengers, on The Battle of New York, on Loki, on the Chitauri, and on Earth in general.

First off, the Chitauri are not "Thanos' army." They're little more than a group of mercenaries in Thanos' employ, that he loaned out to Loki for "Reindeer Games'" little playtime. They're obviously not a particularly powerful army, and certainly not the type of army Thanos himself would field in battle.

In other words: Thanos doesn't give a **** that the Chitauri got defeated.

And he doesn't care *how* they got defeated, either. Yes, the Avengers proved powerful enough and resourceful enough to protect this little backwater planet, and it was probably enough to make Thanos raise an eyebrow. Does that mean he's afraid of them? Hell no. Does that mean he wants to take over/destroy Earth to remove their threat? Hell no. Does that mean he would even need to assemble a rag-tag band of villains who've already lost individually to at least one Avenger to take them down? Puh-leeeeeez. Thanos don't need no washed-up has-beens. He could wipe the MCU Avengers out with a wave of his hand; what's he need to crib together a Loser Brigade for....?

Loki's expedition was nothing but a diversion. Thanos doesn't give a crap about anything on Earth; he has zero interest in it at this point. What he *does* want is on Asgard. So he manipulated Loki into a mission that he knew the God of Mischief would fail, so that he could maneuver the Cosmic Cube into place on Asgard to facilitate an invasion of Odin's Treasury to get the Gauntlet, the one thing that he DOES care about.

Right, that's your perception of the New York invasion. My perception is that the Avengers made themselves known when they took down Thanos' army. The Chitauri are described as Thanos' force by the Other in the beginning of The Avengers, and they were never at a point described as just a group of mercenaries. So far they are Thanos' main force of invasion so I'd say they are his army until proven otherwise. Thanos knows the Avengers are not to be taken lightly at this point, and they could probably jeopardize his goal of collecting the Infinity Gems. Of course he doesn't care about losing such a small amount of the Chitauri, but that doesn't mean that the Avengers didn't make an impact. It's logical to assume he would use some sort of diversion for the Avengers, this time pitting their planets' own against them with the Masters and perhaps even more of his Chitauri in larger forces.


I'm also only assuming there will be a reason that Thanos wants to come to earth.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Loki's expedition was nothing but a diversion. Thanos doesn't give a crap about anything on Earth; he has zero interest in it at this point. What he *does* want is on Asgard. So he manipulated Loki into a mission that he knew the God of Mischief would fail, so that he could maneuver the Cosmic Cube into place on Asgard to facilitate an invasion of Odin's Treasury to get the Gauntlet, the one thing that he DOES care about.

I have to disagree with this. Ignoring the fact you're saying a lot based off of conjecture, it's pretty clear Thanos is interested in taking on the Avengers to "court Death". That smile wasn't for nothing.

 

[cherokeesam]

Right, that's your perception of the New York invasion. My perception is that the Avengers made themselves known when they took down Thanos' army. The Chitauri are described as Thanos' force by the Other in the beginning of The Avengers, and they were never at a point described as just a group of mercenaries. So far they are Thanos' main force of invasion so I'd say they are his army until proven otherwise. Thanos knows the Avengers are not to be taken lightly at this point, and they could probably jeopardize his goal of collecting the Infinity Gems. Of course he doesn't care about losing such a small amount of the Chitauri, but that doesn't mean that the Avengers didn't make an impact. It's logical to assume he would use some sort of diversion for the Avengers, this time pitting their planets' own against them with the Masters and perhaps even more of his Chitauri in larger forces.


I'm also only assuming there will be a reason that Thanos wants to come to earth.

Yeah, I'm sure there's a reason Thanos will come to Earth, or at least set his sights on it; but I think it's not going to be because he's afraid of the Avengers (yet) or wants to punish them for defeating the Chitauri, as some seem to think. (Let's be honest: look at Thanos' body language in the post-cred stinger.....does he *look* like somebody who's raging about the loss of his army....? )

If there's any justice in the MCU "Bullpen" at all, I'd like to see Peter Quill and the Guardians be the actual reason Thanos targets Earth, and the Avengers just happen to be caught in the crossfire.

 

[blalex620]

I might have to be more inclined with Sam on this one. I don't think Thanos is looking too much at the Avengers Yet. I think he's going to start taking a lot more interest in them after Thor 2 and GotG. And I do agree he used Loki to get to Asgard to steal the IG which I'm hoping is what we see in Thor 2.
But to keep this on GotG, I think Thanos will play a major role as a villain in GotG whether it's as the main villain or the villain pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Yeah, I'm sure there's a reason Thanos will come to Earth, or at least set his sights on it; but I think it's not going to be because he's afraid of the Avengers (yet) or wants to punish them for defeating the Chitauri, as some seem to think. (Let's be honest: look at Thanos' body language in the post-cred stinger.....does he *look* like somebody who's raging about the loss of his army....? )

If there's any justice in the MCU "Bullpen" at all, I'd like to see Peter Quill and the Guardians be the actual reason Thanos targets Earth, and the Avengers just happen to be caught in the crossfire.

I don't see it as Thanos being afraid of the Avengers or even wanting to punish them. They would just stand in his way of doing whatever he needs to on earth, so he uses a diversion until he gets it. After that, he'll be powerful enough to personally take them all on at once.

I might have to be more inclined with Sam on this one. I don't think Thanos is looking too much at the Avengers Yet. I think he's going to start taking a lot more interest in them after Thor 2 and GotG. And I do agree he used Loki to get to Asgard to steal the IG which I'm hoping is what we see in Thor 2.
But to keep this on GotG, I think Thanos will play a major role as a villain in GotG whether it's as the main villain or the villain pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Thanos will probably be watching the Avengers more closely throughout phase 2 after what they pulled. By TA2, it will have gotten to the point that he takes the measures of getting the Masters together.

 

[cherokeesam]

I have to disagree with this. Ignoring the fact you're saying a lot based off of conjecture, it's pretty clear Thanos is interested in taking on the Avengers to "court Death". That smile wasn't for nothing.

The "courting Death" quote actually refers to humanity in general, not the Avengers.

Humans... They are not the cowering wretches we were promised. They stand. They are unruly, and therefore cannot be ruled. To challenge them is to court death.
[Thanos rises and smiles]

And the smirk is, of course, because The Other made an unintentional joke about Thanos' lady-friend.

I don't see any evidence that, at this stage of the game, he's interested in taking on the Avengers himself, or Earth, at all. I think TDW will prove that Asgard is his target, and there's ample foreshadowing on that from TA1.

 

[Mr. Dent]

That's your interpretation, I have a different one. The Other is referring to humanity as a whole in that quote, yes, but more specifically, taking on the Earth's mightiest heroes is what equates to courting Death, i.e. taking on the Avengers as they are representatives of humanity. Nick Fury even said as much; the Avengers were meant to be a statement to every world, and it caught Thanos' eye. He wants the challenge. We don't know if Death will be personified here, for all we know Thanos is simply obsessed with the idea of death and is a hyper nihilist in the MCU. Right now, it makes much more sense in the context of the scene that he was smiling because taking on the Avengers/humanity meant courting death...I mean, unless you're just inserting your own facts into the scene, I don't see how you take it any other way than that.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

You did not address this, which was the crux of my contention. You just repeated what you said before. That's what I'm talking about. Granted, you did go further into detail, as you said, but you didn't give me a reason why your idea stands up to what I said.

And I do feel like having the Guardians come in at the end along with Thanos fighting the Avengers after the MoE are dealt with would feel very shoehorned. The Guardians should be introduced early on in the film to make the film flow well...just having them pop up out of nowhere in the third act would be horrible, especially if you hadn't watched the Guardians before A2, which I'm sure will be the case for A LOT of the audience.

The Guardians don't need to just pop up in the last act. I said that's when they would come to Earth along with Thanos.

 

[blalex620]

Thanos will probably be watching the Avengers more closely throughout phase 2 after what they pulled. By TA2, it will have gotten to the point that he takes the measures of getting the Masters together.

I just don't see the MoE being the villains in A2. 1. There's no evidence that that's where they're going for A2. 2. Like someone said before the MCU rogue gallery is weak right now.
There's more evidence that Thanos will be the big bad for A2.

 

[Mr. Dent]

The Guardians don't need to just pop up in the last act. I said that's when they would come to Earth along with Thanos.

So what, their story would be told parallel to the Avengers' on Earth, while they're taking on 5-6 super villains, with no interaction until they take on Thanos in the third act? That sounds even worse.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

So what, their story would be told parallel to the Avengers' on Earth, while they're taking on 5-6 super villains, with no interaction until they take on Thanos in the third act? That sounds even worse.

I have no idea how it would be explored in TA2. However, I'm sure a story expert like Whedon could make it work if he wanted.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Yeah I'm sure too...which is why I don't see him doing it the way you're talking about, no offense. Whedon is a comic buff, he knows all about the old comics with how the Guardians (the original ones) first met and teamed up with the Avengers and how Thanos first fought the Avengers. None of them involved the Masters of Evil. Thanos and the Guardians are completely separate from the Masters and should be treated that way in the films.

The Loki/Thanos combination in the first movie worked because Thanos was behind the scenes and only provided Loki with an army. Having him be the main villain while gathering the MoE is completely different.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Yeah I'm sure too...which is why I don't see him doing it the way you're talking about, no offense. Whedon is a comic buff, he knows all about the old comics with how the Guardians (the original ones) first met and teamed up with the Avengers and how Thanos first fought the Avengers. None of them involved the Masters of Evil. Thanos and the Guardians are completely separate from the Masters and should be treated that way in the films.

None taken. I don't think it would be out of the question for Thanos to group together the Masters. Loki was not allied with Thanos in the "old comics" either, so I don't think we should be using those as an example.

 

[blalex620]

None taken. I don't think it would be out of the question for Thanos to group together the Masters. Loki was not allied with Thanos in the "old comics" either, so I don't think we should be using those as an example.

i don't think Loki ever knew who Thanos really was. It seemed like to me that he dealt with the Other exclusively

 

[Mr. Dent]

None taken. I don't think it would be out of the question for Thanos to group together the Masters. Loki was not allied with Thanos in the "old comics" either, so I don't think we should be using those as an example.

Like I said, Thanos being in the background the entire film and giving Loki an army and him being front an center as the main villain are two completely different things. MoE should not be involved if Thanos is the main villain.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Like I said, Thanos being in the background the entire film and giving Loki an army and him being front an center as the main villain are two completely different things. MoE should not be involved if Thanos is the main villain.

My point is that Thanos and Loki were never involved in the old comics. Not everything is lifted straight from the comics in the MCU. There are bound to be changes made, and this just seems like a logical one to me.

i don't think Loki ever knew who Thanos really was. It seemed like to me that he dealt with the Other exclusively

Thanos knew who Loki was.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Yes I realize that, I even addressed it before you brought it up. I'm just saying, there's a very distinct difference between having Thanos as a background mastermind and the main villain. If he's the main villain, the Masters should not be involved. But to each his own...don't know how the conversation got this far when we both kept saying we'd leave it lol.