Guillermo del Toro's "The Shape of Water"

[Kane52630]

Just saw this today. I hated it. Surprised the hell out of me since I have liked all of his films especially The Devil's Backbone and Pacific Rim which was my favorite film of 2013, but The Shape of Water was truly terrible. If I wasn't with my family I would have walked out of the theater midway through it. I disliked pretty much all of the characters in this film expect for Michael Stuhlbarg and I would of said the same for Richard Jenkins if it wasn't for the completely asinine

Spoiler

scene where he had a very Laissez-faire attitude toward the creature eating his cat and attacking him.

Found the cat person.

 

[redhawk23]

There have been a lot featurettes but this one is the first I've seen that gets into the onset UV lighting they used for some of the body glow.

Very impressive.

https://youtu.be/1Dyheyq2aBY

 

[Schlosser85]

As a cat person, that part kind of disturbed me too.

 

[ban768]

Found the cat person.

Spoiler

I actually wanted to walk out of the movie before the cat scene. But I'm sure most normal people would say hey no big deal this sea creature I have barely interacted with that we just busted out of a secured armed building that just attacked me and ate my cat, lets bring this creature back into my home unsecured. No biggie.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I kind of think you missed the point of the movie, but at the end of the day, your opinion is all that matters to you. If you hated it, that's okay.

 

[I'm Old Greg]

I Love Fish. Manimal.

 

[tzarinna]

Saw it, loved it.

Though, slightly uncomfortable that I brought my mom with me...

I was on a "date" and yeah super awkward.

 

[redhawk23]

Guillermo del Toro won Best Film Director from the Director's Guild.

Anything short of the Best Director Oscar would be a shocking upset at this point.

 

[Elayis]

Whoops, wrong thread.

 

[Hypestyle]

Del Toro should be recruited to helm the Sub-Mariner project for Marvel.

 

[Elayis]

Just got back, and I have to say it's one of the most overrated films I've seen since The Artist. Sure, it's well made, but there's not an ounce of subtly or nuance in this film. Everything is over-the-top and grandiose, like a musical or a children's film. But the film didn't truly lose me until the dance number; after that I gave up on enjoying the movie.

And there's nothing new about the film either. All of it is pretty standard tropes, hitting all of the usual beats. I can see why the film was a hit with the Academy, though, with it dealing with homophobic and xenophobic attitudes.

As for the bestiality debate, I don't have an issue with her having relations with someone that isn't human. The problem for me is that he had the emotional maturity of a child, and was rather feral; at times it felt like she was taking advantage of him. I wish their relationship had been better developed. It all happens very quickly, with her monologue doing all of the emotional heavy lifting.

So overall, 7/10. I hope better films like Phantom Thread, Dunkirk or The Post win BP. And as I feared would happen, I think I'm done with del Toro's English language films. I love Pan's Labyrinth, but none of his Hollywood movies come anywhere close to it. Part of it is how raw that film was, and how artificial and theatrical films like Hellboy, Crimson Peak and Shape of Water are. Hopefully he'll make another Spanish film soon.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Decided to pre-order this off Amazon

 

[Eddie Dean]

As for the bestiality debate, I don't have an issue with her having relations with someone that isn't human. The problem for me is that he had the emotional maturity of a child, and was rather feral; at times it felt like she was taking advantage of him. I wish their relationship had been better developed. It all happens very quickly, with her monologue doing all of the emotional heavy lifting.

This is the real problem of the movie. Del Toro loves the monster so much, he assumes everyone else will. He gives us nothing else.

 

[redhawk23]

Honestly it didn't really fell less developed than any other romance movie of this its type. It more or less operates at musical speed, despite having only really one musical sequence.

 

[Silvermoth]

I loved it. Closest we will ever get to a bioshock movie.

Bit hard to keep loving gill man after the cat scene though

 

[InfinityWar]

I finally got around to seeing the film and I was shocked about how ppl love this film so much when the 'love relationship' between the creature and mute girl' was disgusting and gross. It really didnt need to be there. I would have really enjoyed the movie if the movie was about them releasing the creature, not having SEX with it ! The movie would have worked so much better if the mute looked at the creature as an 'animal' or pet - have that kind of bond with it. Not a SEXUAL INTER-SPECIES RELATIONSHIP !!!!

The creature had ZERO human qualities to where a human would fall in love with it. It came across as awkward and unbelievable. There was no communication between the two characters. The creature was TOO much like a reptile. I think a movie where a woman falls in love with Cesar from Planet of the Apes would make more sense, imo. It was nasty and stupid. The creature ate a freaking CAT ! How is that 'sexy' to the main character ?!? The creature was way too much a reptile for any possibility for a connection between the two characters. Chewbacca had more decency and human qualities than that creature. At what point would the mute character think to herself - 'you know, he isn't really a compatible partner when he's eating cats, cant live above water for too long, is a giant fish.'

God forbid if the mute main character ever met The Predator. He would be the 'bad boy' phase in her life and she would prolly cheat on Blue Lagoon with the Predator. Hopefully, the Terminator endo-skelton robot isn't her type. At least she has standards where they have to be alive at least.

Any relationships is based off of communication. When you have a creature just mimic your hand motions, thats no connecting to another person.

And lets talk about plot problems. The facility had all top secret stuff and cameras, but she was able to bring a giant record player and eat lunch, play music, feed that thing eggs ? With all the cameras, she manages to get away with all that ? And no one says anything.....And why did Michael Shannon shoot the mute girl out of nowhere ? He was still a man that followed the law. He might have roughed up ppl like octavia spencer, but to just shoot the mute girl out of nowhere and commit murder just seemed no believable of his character. He never would have done that if the writers had consistant writing. Yes , he would have killed the creature, bc it wasnt human, it was the same thing as killing a lobster or a fish or something....But a human ? Terrible writing....

The dance dream sequence .... Uh..... The movie went from art to comedy real fast. Because it looked like something out of a Saturday Night Live sketch. It was comical. I wasnt sure if he was going for artistic or light moment, but it was so out of place in the film.

I still don't understand the Russian scientist subplot was used for. All he did was help her escape. The multiple scenes with him and the russians, him and michael shannon, just too much of that character that ended up nowhere. He didn't do anything and had way too much screen time, just to go out like a ****** at the end.

Movie was not Oscar worthy. Dunkirk, Greatest Showman, I Tonya, Darkest Hour, Disaster Artist - were all 100x better than this obscene stupid gross silly movie.

4/10

 

[Schlosser85]

I agree the dance fantasy sequence was out of place and kind of ridiculous.

But I don't agree that Shannon being homicidal was out of character. It's pretty thoroughly established over the whole course of the movie that he's a ****** dude all around, he's passive aggressively abusive to Elisa, Zelda, Hofstetler, and basically everyone around him, he's sadistic (the guy carries around a cattle prod, ffs), and by the end he's having a meltdown because A) his boss is threatening to destroy his life if he doesn't find the creature, and B) his fingers are literally rotting and probably giving him blood poisoning and adding to his delirium, so in all that context it doesn't feel out of nowhere to me that he's going a little crazy and has no ****s to give by the end.

Also killing the creature is not equivalent to killing a lobster (??), it's obviously far more intelligent and interactive, even if still animalistic.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I agree the dance fantasy sequence was out of place and kind of ridiculous.

But I don't agree that Shannon being homicidal was out of character. It's pretty thoroughly established over the whole course of the movie that he's a ****** dude all around, he's passive aggressively abusive to Elisa, Zelda, Hofstetler, and basically everyone around him, he's sadistic (the guy carries around a cattle prod, ffs), and by the end he's having a meltdown because A) his boss is threatening to destroy his life if he doesn't find the creature, and B) his fingers are literally rotting and probably giving him blood poisoning and adding to his delirium, so in all that context it doesn't feel out of nowhere to me that he's going a little crazy and has no ****s to give by the end.

Also killing the creature is not equivalent to killing a lobster (??), it's obviously far more intelligent and interactive, even if still animalistic.

The musical scene I didn't think was out of place. She was crafting a vision of a utopia in her head, and in the movie what she loved was Shirley Temple-esque dancing movies, so when she pictured her happy place with the creature, that's what she pictured. I thought it worked great.

 

[redhawk23]

Strickland was torturous and self righteous even at the best of times. By the end of the film he is on the brink of being completely cut out of the life that he had built for himself, pushed to the edge and literally rotting. He is fixated only on killing the fishman and bringing him back.

 

[InfinityWar]

I agree the dance fantasy sequence was out of place and kind of ridiculous.

But I don't agree that Shannon being homicidal was out of character. It's pretty thoroughly established over the whole course of the movie that he's a ****** dude all around, he's passive aggressively abusive to Elisa, Zelda, Hofstetler, and basically everyone around him, he's sadistic (the guy carries around a cattle prod, ffs), and by the end he's having a meltdown because A) his boss is threatening to destroy his life if he doesn't find the creature, and B) his fingers are literally rotting and probably giving him blood poisoning and adding to his delirium, so in all that context it doesn't feel out of nowhere to me that he's going a little crazy and has no ****s to give by the end.

Also killing the creature is not equivalent to killing a lobster (??), it's obviously far more intelligent and interactive, even if still animalistic.

Being an a-hole and being a murderer is two completely different things. There was not a single scene that established he was capable of disregarding his job. If anything, it was established he was all about his job. He was mean, he was a pig, he was a creep, he was materialistic (w/ his love for his car) - but in no way did I ever think it was in his character to kill an innocent character out of anger. He didn't even physically hurt Octavia Spencer in their scene in her house. He was mean, sure.. he used harsh language, but he didn't pull out a gun on her. Just randomly shoot the main character was shoehorned bc we needed that emotional moment between a fish and the human.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Being an a-hole and being a murderer is two completely different things. There was not a single scene that established he was capable of disregarding his job. If anything, it was established he was all about his job. He was mean, he was a pig, he was a creep, he was materialistic (w/ his love for his car) - but in no way did I ever think it was in his character to kill an innocent character out of anger. He didn't even physically hurt Octavia Spencer in their scene in her house. He was mean, sure.. he used harsh language, but he didn't pull out a gun on her. Just randomly shoot the main character was shoehorned bc we needed that emotional moment between a fish and the human.

He was portrayed as being super easy to anger the whole movie. Him attempting to kill someone was not really a stretch at all. He clearly was not sound of mind (basically ever).

 

[chaseter]

I’m glad more people have sided with me on the completely weird plot point of having a woman have sex with the creature. It’s like Old Yeller only throw in sex between the boy and his dog....I mean wtf!?

 

[InfinityWar]

I agree, chaseter.....Their sexual relationship didnt sit well with me. At all....

You guys remember that scene at the end of the original Planet of the Apes 1968 where Charlton Heston kissed the ape ? It was awkward and looked strange. This whole movie took that to a new level. Totally gross and unbelievable for their world the film established.

I think if you cut that love romance out of the film and make it about a mute woman and her 'big pet fish' and the idea of just having to free the thing, I would have been totally on board. But she has to have sex with a reptile ???? That is disgusting and I can't get into the film. Thats just me. Different tastes. Others might see something else entirely, but I think that single moment ruined the film. Its a well made film with a wonderful cast and amazing performances. I havent seen Three Billboards yet, so I cant say for sure Hawkings should win Best Actress, but it was a terrific performance. I personally hope Dunkirk wins Best Pic, but Hollywood will prolly give this awful movie the Oscar unfortunately. I wish Disaster Artist was nominated.

 

[Elayis]

I understand what del Toro was trying to say about racism and xenophobia, but the execution of those themes in the film doesn't really work. The concept of her getting with a non-human being is fine, but the creature as portrayed in the film is too childlike, too animalistic for it to work.

As InfinityWar said, none of the creature's actions in the film convey adult human-level intelligence or emotions. In fact, aside from some understanding of sign language all of his actions are violent or like those of a pet. He's basically equivalent to a chimpanzee (not the Planet of the Apes kind).

Again, I understand what del Toro was going for and if it had been handled differently I would've been totally onboard (in concept it's no different than interspecies relationships in sci-fi), but the way it's portrayed in the movie is pretty gross and borderline pedophilic.

This wasn't the only problem I had with the film, though. Even without this particular subplot I still wouldn't have enjoyed the film (though I concede that it was well crafted).

 

[InfinityWar]

I understand what del Toro was trying to say about racism and xenophobia, but the execution of those themes in the film doesn't really work. The concept of her getting with a non-human being is fine, but the creature as portrayed in the film is too childlike, too animalistic for it to work.

As InfinityWar said, none of the creature's actions in the film convey adult human-level intelligence or emotions. In fact, aside from some understanding of sign language all of his actions are violent or like those of a pet. He's basically equivalent to a chimpanzee (not the Planet of the Apes kind).

Again, I understand what del Toro was going for and if it had been handled differently I would've been totally onboard (in concept it's no different than interspecies relationships in sci-fi), but the way it's portrayed in the movie is pretty gross and borderline pedophilic.

This wasn't the only problem I had with the film, though. Even without this particular subplot I still wouldn't have enjoyed the film (though I concede that it was well crafted).

Couldn't have said it better....The creature did not have human level intelligence, maturity or any human characteristics for the relationship to work at any level. And it looks like a giant lizard, slimey, scales, no body like features that any woman would be attracted too. It just wasnt believable on any level. its not just leaving your brain at the door, its completely ignoring the world the movie creates and forget all sense of reality.

It was getting beat up by Shannon, it then ate a cat bc it didnt know better, it couldn't communicate or provoke any emotional interaction between itself and the mute woman. Just the type of thing a woman would be attracted to ? I dont think so.... It missed the mark, imo.