Gwen Stacy...to kill or not to kill.

[nygma619]

I don't agree. She was the first long term enduring gf Peter had.

That still doesn't mean she lacked personality IMO. Mostly she was sweet and thats about it.

The only reason she was killed off was because the editor back then, Roy Thomas, didn't know how to keep Peter continually going in a mature relationship like that. Alot like the clown running Marvel at the moment, Joe Queseda, who recently erased the Peter/MJ marriage.

Close, they thought having Peter being married in college would turn away potential younger readers (where have we heard this before?). Though to be fair they did it for awhile with MJ, until Joe Q came in.

Stan Lee had always intended for Peter to marry Gwen eventually. But he left the writing duties of ASM about 12 issues before Gwen was killed off.

Yeah but even he eventually admits to Gwen getting killed being a good idea.

Retelling one of the greatest Spider-Man stories ever? Yeah, what were we thinking? How silly of us.

IMO I think bringing GG back years later has cheapened it somewhat. The only thing that would totally ruin it is Gwen being brought back. Though they've dragged her name through the mud a couple times, thus hurting it somewhat IMO.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather the series be defined by what it does on it's own, then what it does because it happened in the comics. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I enjoyed the master planner arc, but that arc was not a print for print copy of what that arc was in the comics. It just used the elements of what made it memorable to begin with and retooled them in a way thats different but not retreading old ground.

 

[The Joker]

That still doesn't mean she lacked personality IMO. Mostly she was sweet and thats about it.

Sweet? Gwen started out one fiesty piece in her first few months in the comics when she was introduced as a classmate when Peter started college. She actually didn't like Peter initially because he appeared distant, aloof, and often fobbing people off. Harry Osborn got the same impression, too, and also didn't like him.

She had a fair share of conflict in her tenure. Most notably always rivaling MJ for Peter's affections, something the uber tame Gwen of this series would never do. She just sat back and let Liz have Peter. She never let Peter know how she felt and then let him decide who he wants to be with.

Then there was the conflict over her belief that Spider-Man was ultimately responsible for her father's death because he was careless in how he tackled Doc Ock, showing no regard for the safety of the bystanders.

They also shared stuff in common, like science and Gwen studying crimonology because her father was a Cop.

Close, they thought having Peter being married in college would turn away potential younger readers (where have we heard this before?). Though to be fair they did it for awhile with MJ, until Joe Q came in.

Same difference. It wasn't that Gwen was unpopular. It was the conflict her relationship with Peter brought. There was no way they'd break up willingly.

One of them had to go. And there was an uproar with the fans when they killed her.

Yeah but even he eventually admits to Gwen getting killed being a good idea.

Of course he did. Her death was the most emotionally charged and dramatic story in Spidey history. And it paved way for the eventual Peter/MJ relationship.

IMO I think bringing GG back years later has cheapened it somewhat. The only thing that would totally ruin it is Gwen being brought back. Though they've dragged her name through the mud a couple times, thus hurting it somewhat IMO.

I agree. Of all the comic book stories, I've never seen one referenced so often thru the years.

Do you know in the latest issue that came out yesterday, Peter had a near death experience, and he says "Gwen, I'll be seeing you soon" to himself when he thinks he's going to die.

We get it, Marvel. Gwen is dead. He loved her. He misses her. Don't need reminding every 5 minutes.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather the series be defined by what it does on it's own, then what it does because it happened in the comics. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I enjoyed the master planner arc, but that arc was not a print for print copy of what that arc was in the comics. It just used the elements of what made it memorable to begin with and retooled them in a way thats different but not retreading old ground.

The Master Planner arc, Sinister Six, Goblin unmasked, Gang War arc etc. All infamous arcs from the comic books that they adapted. None of them were a carbon copy of the comic books.

But the essential ingredients were there. Just spiced up and reworked a bit. Why shouldn't Gwen die eventually in a similar type storyline? Fans wanted it for the movies. This cartoon has the real opportunity to do it right because we know Gwen better than any movie could ever deliver. Her character has been built up over many episodes.

Look at how fans wet themselves when they did that one little part of Spidey buried under the rubble in Ock's Master Planner lair. That scene from the comics is just as infamous as Gwen on that bridge with the Goblin.

 

[nygma619]

Sweet? Gwen started out one fiesty piece in her first few months in the comics when she was introduced as a classmate when Peter started college.

Key words: "Started out", that didn't last. Especially when Mary Jane came onto the scene.

She had a fair share of conflict in her tenure. Most notably always rivaling MJ for Peter's affections, something the uber tame Gwen of this series would never do. She just sat back and let Liz have Peter. She never let Peter know how she felt and then let him decide who he wants to be with.

Yeah and Gwen ended up winning that battle majority of the time. Also Gwen did give hints of how she felt about Peter, in "Spectacular". Gwen in 616 IMO was a boarderline Mary Sue.

The Master Planner arc, Sinister Six, Goblin unmasked, Gang War arc etc. All infamous arcs from the comic books that they adapted. None of them were a carbon copy of the comic books.

But the essential ingredients were there. Just spiced up and reworked a bit. Why shouldn't Gwen die eventually in a similar type storyline? Fans wanted it for the movies. This cartoon has the real opportunity to do it right because we know Gwen better than any movie could ever deliver. Her character has been built up over many episodes.

Yeah but there's no reason that Peter Parkers timeline has to ultimately be just like the Spider-Man of the comics. And that goes for other characters as well.

Look at Batman TAS for instance, how many stories of that series were adaptations?
Or look at the DCAU for that matter, did the characters over there follow nearly the same timelines?
Sure there were some whining fanboys over stuff like Batman Beyond (Bruce's development in that), and lord knows there were many whiny fanboys over stuff like Hawkgirl being one of the Big 7.
Why did those fanboys whine over this stuff, because it never happened in the comics.
But some people came to except the changes, and actually embraced the universe that Timm and Co. had created and some even miss it to this day. Sure some of this stuff happened by chance/happy accidents. But Timm and Co. thought outside the box more often then inside it.

Look at how fans wet themselves when they did that one little part of Spidey buried under the rubble in Ock's Master Planner lair. That scene from the comics is just as infamous as Gwen on that bridge with the Goblin.

I'd say majority of the people who wetted themselves are the ones who remembered it, or read about it (the diehards mostly). Not everybody did, some of them have never heard about it (which is a shame).
I wouldn't say it was infamous, but I get what your saying.

My point is just because some of these characters went in a certain direction in the comics doesn't mean they have to in the other mediums. And I hold the DCAU version of Batman/Bruce Wayne as the prime example of this.

 

[habs_11]

You know I've always been a fan of MJ and the marriage (one of the many reasons I stopped reading the comics)

But this Gwen is just so damn likeable. I watched a couple episodes, and I found myself really digging this version of Gwen, then it hit me... "Oh $#!*, she's Gwen Stacy!!!!, this won't end well."

I grew up after the death of Gwen (I'm still probably way older than most of the rest of you) And I always respected what her Death meant in the context Spider-Man's history (a long time ago I tracked down copies of AMS 121 and 122) But it hasn't been until now that I really understood the emotional impact of her death, because I just don't want to see this Gwen die. It's quite sad watching this show and "knowing what's going to happen"

I say don't kill her. They don't have 40 years worth of stories to tell, I REALLY hope I'm wrong but with being shoved on an obscure Disney sub-channel I think they'll be really really lucky to make it to 3 seasons (and that awfull cheesetastic TAS made it to 5 or 6, ugh, there is no justice) Which means killing Gwen would probably be one of the last things to happen in the series. and really, that's a really bitter depressing way to end the show.

I think it's ok if Gwen gets a happy ending in at least one continuity.

nice post. i agree in every way.

 

[The Joker]

Key words: "Started out", that didn't last. Especially when Mary Jane came onto the scene.

Nope, it reared it's head many times. Example, she slapped a guy across the face who was dissing Peter behind his back.

Could you see meek Gwen of this series doing that? I couldn't even see her raising her voice lol.

Yeah and Gwen ended up winning that battle majority of the time.

Exactly. She was fiesty and more than able to verbally match the fiery MJ. Spectacular's Gwen needs MJ to play cupid for her with Peter.

Also Gwen did give hints of how she felt about Peter, in "Spectacular".

One hint. And she never pursued it.

Gwen in 616 IMO was a boarderline Mary Sue.

I have no idea who that is.

Yeah but there's no reason that Peter Parkers timeline has to ultimately be just like the Spider-Man of the comics. And that goes for other characters as well.

And who the heck says it has to be? Gang war did not come before Goblin unmasked. Neither did Harry's drug addiction. Venom certainly was not around during Peter Parker's high school days etc.

You're simply complaining that people want to see the greatest Spider-Man story ever being adapted into this cartoon. Nobody has complained about the timeline.

Look at Batman TAS for instance, how many stories of that series were adaptations?

Loads of them.

But the difference with BTAS is that it didn't do arcs. It did stand alone stories. But many of them were adaptions of Batman stories over the past 60 years.

Or look at the DCAU for that matter, did the characters over there follow nearly the same timelines?
Sure there were some whining fanboys over stuff like Batman Beyond (Bruce's development in that), and lord knows there were many whiny fanboys over stuff like Hawkgirl being one of the Big 7.
Why did those fanboys whine over this stuff, because it never happened in the comics.
But some people came to except the changes, and actually embraced the universe that Timm and Co. had created and some even miss it to this day. Sure some of this stuff happened by chance/happy accidents. But Timm and Co. thought outside the box more often then inside it.

Man, you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Nobody, repeat nobody is complaining about how Spectacular adapts their stories or their timeline. Capeesh? All people are saying is that they would like to see Spidey's greatest story adapted onto the screen.

And seeing as how virtually every arc in this cartoon is a great Spider-Man classic from the comics, it seems the writers of this show follow that train of thought. Spidey has a plethora of great stories from the old days. Why shouldn't they be adapted on screen with some fresh twists? Which is exactly what they've been doing.

I look forward to seeing the death of Gwen get adapted, and I believe it will happen if this show's history is anything to go by. And the path they're giving Gwen. We know she's going to leave Harry eventually, and that'll piss him off, and Norman, who blamed Peter and his friends for hurting Harry right before he killed Gwen.

I'd say majority of the people who wetted themselves are the ones who remembered it, or read about it (the diehards mostly). Not everybody did, some of them have never heard about it (which is a shame).
I wouldn't say it was infamous, but I get what your saying.

Well of course the people who were excited by it read it or knew of it. It's an iconic story among the fans. Why do you think they put it in there?

It is infamous. Marvel even made merchandise of it. Put it in a video game, too.

My point is just because some of these characters went in a certain direction in the comics doesn't mean they have to in the other mediums. And I hold the DCAU version of Batman/Bruce Wayne as the prime example of this.

The glaring difference is that Gwen is not nearly as big a character as Bruce Wayne. The most famous thing to happen to Gwen was her death. Most famous exit of a Spider-Man character ever.

 

[November Rain]

she has to die, ideally just before they start going out.

her impact on peter parker is just as big an impact of uncle ben on spiderman. It defines the lengths MJ goes to understanding parker and really deepens their relationship. She understands the implications of her death when he does.

 

[habs_11]

this isnt the comics. they dont have 60 years to show how gwens death truly effected peter. i think the aim was to hit 60 episodes which would be about 3 years,correct me if im wrong... in the shows timeline. i just dont see how they can cram so much in to so little time, hell we dont even know if we are getting a 3rd season so this can all be premature. in whatever they they decide to do, lets hope they do it justice.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I do want to see her become Peter's girlfriend for a couple of seasons first before Norman gets her...and throws her off of a bridge not take her to Europe and give her twins.

I doubt very seriously that that will ever happen. Again, the show clearly isn't married to the comics. He didn't fight Venom in high school, Ock never worked for Osborn creating supervillains for Tombstone, Rhino & Shocker weren't part of the Sinister 6, and Harry didn't get addicted to Goblin juice. SOme of the best stories in the comics will likely never make their way to the show, & neither will many of the worst.

 

[nygma619]

Nope, it reared it's head many times. Example, she slapped a guy across the face who was dissing Peter behind his back.

It didn't happen that often when Stan Lee, was writing her, and if moments like that did happen, they didn't happen enough. Personally I always found MJ to be more sassy then Gwen ever was.

Could you see meek Gwen of this series doing that? I couldn't even see her raising her voice lol.

Actually I could, especially if she were to ever learn how Harry is manipulating her into dating him.
And this is a Gwen that is evolving, something the Gwen in the comics didn't do enough of on her own.
MJ was someone who evolved.

Exactly. She was fiesty and more than able to verbally match the fiery MJ. Spectacular's Gwen needs MJ to play cupid for her with Peter.

She wasn't that feisty, and imo when it came to getting back together with Peter/accepting him, she sort of became a pushover in that regard.

One hint. And she never pursued it.

Actually she did a little more to pursue it in season 2 after her makeover. But it takes two to tango. She wanted the feeling from Pete to be mutual, not be 2nd fiddle though Pete chose Liz for complex reasons that Dread has addressed. Gwen in the comics wouldn't think for that long on whether Pete chose her as 2nd best.

I have no idea who that is.

You don't know what a Mary Sue is?

You're simply complaining that people want to see the greatest Spider-Man story ever being adapted into this cartoon. Nobody has complained about the timeline.

Two things, one on The Gwen Stacy storyline I don't think it's as definitive today as other people do. I don't think the story molded Peter to start living/thinking in a different way for the rest of his life, except for his first love dying (getting closer to MJ). Uncle Ben had to die so Peter could learn a lesson ("with great power comes great responsibility".) Let's be honest, Gwen's death was revolutonary for the time period it was in. But at this day and age if it were done, it would be about as impactful as Aunt May dying. Alot of Gwen's death was the impact of the shock value, not because it redefined Peter or anyone else (will ignore MJ for the sake of arguement). Now a days it feels like characters get killed every other thursday in the comics. And those people get revived, it's like nothing is sacred anymore.
And there's been too many liberations taken up to today that have cheapened the story IMO:
-Green Goblin being resurrected.
-Gwen being revealed as having an affair with his greatest enemy that killed her.
-OMD/BND cheapened a hell of alot of MJ's development because of Gwen's death triggering MJ to change.

Don't get me wrong, it's still 1 of Spidey's greatest stories. But I can't look at it in the same way I once did with a good conscience. (somewhat in the same way I can't have any emotional attachment to Chris Benoit's career as a wrestling fan, not as huge but you get the idea).

And two, I'm complaining because people think it has too happen JUST BECAUSE it happened in the comics. If Gwen Stacy doesn't die, is the Spidey universe really going to implode?

Loads of them.

I think you'd be surprised at the ratio of original stories: adaptation stories, if you went back and looked.

Nobody, repeat nobody is complaining about how Spectacular adapts their stories or their timeline. Capeesh? All people are saying is that they would like to see Spidey's greatest story adapted onto the screen.

Where did I say they were?
See what I said above about the story.
There's already one thats out there, that has certain elements that are similar to it. (Spider-Man TAS: Turning Point) True it's not Gwen, and there are censorship issues with it that people here are bound to whine over it regardless. But theres still something that felt almost worse than death having to stay in a dimensional portal.

And seeing as how virtually every arc in this cartoon is a great Spider-Man classic from the comics, it seems the writers of this show follow that train of thought. Spidey has a plethora of great stories from the old days. Why shouldn't they be adapted on screen with some fresh twists? Which is exactly what they've been doing.

Doesn't mean the same results have to occur.

I look forward to seeing the death of Gwen get adapted, and I believe it will happen if this show's history is anything to go by. And the path they're giving Gwen. We know she's going to leave Harry eventually, and that'll piss him off, and Norman, who blamed Peter and his friends for hurting Harry right before he killed Gwen.

If it does happen, don't count on it happening in the series run. Greg has already hinted that it wouldn't happen in the 65 episode run.

To be honest, I never really got the impression that this version of Norman Osborn really gave a crap about his son (or his wife, for that matter) deep down.

Well of course the people who were excited by it read it or knew of it. It's an iconic story among the fans. Why do you think they put it in there?

Because it has never been adapted to the small screen.

The glaring difference is that Gwen is not nearly as big a character as Bruce Wayne. The most famous thing to happen to Gwen was her death. Most famous exit of a Spider-Man character ever.

And yet look at how much they changed Bruce Wayne in the DCAU when he got older compared to what he did in the comics when he got older. I don't get where your coming from.

And to be honest I don't think Gwen in the comics would have nearly as big a fanbase if Pete dumped her and hooked up with MJ, and she didn't get killed.

 

[The Joker]

It didn't happen that often when Stan Lee, was writing her, and if moments like that did happen, they didn't happen enough.

It happened quite enough. Combined with her bouts with MJ, the conflicts over her father's death etc. She was more than interesting and sassy.

Bare in mind she was only ASM for about 80-90 issues, too.

Actually I could, especially if she were to ever learn how Harry is manipulating her into dating him.

I can't. She's way too meek. Every version of Gwen Stacy is more lively and self assured than this one. Ultimate Gwen, Gwen in Spider-Man 3, and certainly 616 Gwen.

I think if they do her father's death, that'll be the rocket up her ass to make her more tough and fiesty.

And this is a Gwen that is evolving, something the Gwen in the comics didn't do enough of on her own.

Gwen had plenty of evolution in the comics. She was up herself and very much a "beauty queen" of college in the beginning. The closer she got to Peter, the more of a likeable down to earth person she became. Often putting Flash and Harry in their place for berating Peter, too.

And there was plenty of evolution in their relationship, too. Gwen even left the country at one point, and that tore Peter apart.

She wasn't that feisty, and imo when it came to getting back together with Peter/accepting him, she sort of became a pushover in that regard.

How was she a pushover? She left the flamin' country at one point and left Peter behind.

Actually she did a little more to pursue it in season 2 after her makeover.

Ummm she was dating Harry when she got that makeover. How was that pursuing Peter? She was Harry's date.

But it takes two to tango. She wanted the feeling from Pete to be mutual, not be 2nd fiddle.

That's hilarious considering she was dating Harry, making him 2nd fiddle, as she didn't have any feelings for him at all.

Gwen in the comics wouldn't think for that long on whether Pete chose her as 2nd best.

Exactly. She's alot more perceptive than that.

You don't know what a Mary Sue is?

I just said that, didn't I.

Two things, one on The Gwen Stacy storyline I don't think it's as definitive today as other people do. I don't think the story molded Peter to start living/thinking in a different way for the rest of his life, except for his first love dying (getting closer to MJ). Uncle Ben had to die so Peter could learn a lesson ("with great power comes great responsibility".) Let's be honest, Gwen's death was revolutonary for the time period it was in. But at this day and age if it were done, it would be about as impactful as Aunt May dying.

Nonsense. It would have every bit the impact today if the circumstances were the same. Gwen was Peter's first true love. She died because she loved Peter and he loved her. That's why the Goblin took her. He was trying to punish Peter.

That was a lesson Peter learned. The consequences of someone being with him while he leads this dangerous life where a villain can find out who he really is.

It's one of the reasons why Civil War was such bull. Peter would never willingly unmask to the world. He of all people knows the consequences of your enemies knowing who you are.

Alot of Gwen's death was the impact of the shock value, not because it redefined Peter or anyone else

Are you seriously trying to say that over 30 years later, Gwen's death is still considered the greatest Spider-Man story ever told simply because it was a shock to the fan base back in the 70's?

Think very carefully before you answer this one.

Now a days it feels like characters get killed every other thursday in the comics. And those people get revived, it's like nothing is sacred anymore.
And there's been too many liberations taken up to today that have cheapened the story IMO:
-Green Goblin being resurrected.
-Gwen being revealed as having an affair with his greatest enemy that killed her.
-OMD/BND cheapened a hell of alot of MJ's development because of Gwen's death triggering MJ to change.

I understand that is all crapola. If you let the hacks at Marvel these days taint the classic stories for you, that's your loss.

I don't. I still adore every single one of those old school classics for what they are.

Don't get me wrong, it's still 1 of Spidey's greatest stories. But I can't look at it in the same way I once did with a good conscience. (somewhat in the same way I can't have any emotional attachment to Chris Benoit's career as a wrestling fan, not as huge but you get the idea).

Again man, that's your loss. Darn shame.

And two, I'm complaining because people think it has too happen JUST BECAUSE it happened in the comics. If Gwen Stacy doesn't die, is the Spidey universe really going to implode?

*Sigh*

Who said anything so extreme as that? Mountains out of mole hills again, mate. If they didn't show it it'd be a huge wasted opportunity to show some real vintage greatness never shown before on screen with Spidey.

Can you imagine the hype if we found out they were adapting that story? It'd be insane. And you know it.

I think you'd be surprised at the ratio of original stories: adaptation stories, if you went back and looked.

I'm a die hard Batman fan. I know exactly how many were adapted from the comics. Loads of them were.

Where did I say they were?

Your constant ranting about how timelines don't have to be the same as the comics, as if someone here said that they should be.

There's already one thats out there, that has certain elements that are similar to it. (Spider-Man TAS: Turning Point) True it's not Gwen, and there are censorship issues with it that people here are bound to whine over it regardless. But theres still something that felt almost worse than death having to stay in a dimensional portal.

I can't agree with that. MJ floating around a dimensional portal, I knew that she'd be found eventually. That was the happy ending the show had. Madame Webb took Peter to find MJ.

She wasn't dead. Just missing temporarily. Gwen's death in the comics was a permanent loss. So far anyway

Doesn't mean the same results have to occur.

Uh huh, well I haven't seen any dramatically different results so far. So I think I'll stick to my theorey for now.

If it does happen, don't count on it happening in the series run. Greg has already hinted that it wouldn't happen in the 65 episode run.

You have a link to where he said that, please? I didn't know that.

To be honest, I never really got the impression that this version of Norman Osborn really gave a crap about his son (or his wife, for that matter) deep down.

He did in Final Curtain. He said he'd finally made a man out of his son, and that he's never been prouder of him.

Because it has never been adapted to the small screen.

No, because it's a Spidey classic.

And yet look at how much they changed Bruce Wayne in the DCAU when he got older compared to what he did in the comics when he got older. I don't get where your coming from.

I don't get where you're coming from. What big change did old Bruce Wayne have? Are you talking about Batman Beyond? In comparison to what in the comics? The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel?

And again, I don't know why you're using Bruce Wayne as an example. A character with a 68+ comic year history, compared to Gwen, who lasted about 8 years, and was a supporting character.

And to be honest I don't think Gwen in the comics would have nearly as big a fanbase if Pete dumped her and hooked up with MJ, and she didn't get killed.

Of course not. If Peter dumped her for another women then Gwen was never that important to him to begin with, was she? Much like Liz in the cartoon now.

But that was not the case.

 

[nygma619]

It happened quite enough. Combined with her bouts with MJ, the conflicts over her father's death etc. She was more than interesting and sassy.

Bare in mind she was only ASM for about 80-90 issues, too.

Uh Peter barely had to try hard in terms of satisfying her/try very hard to get back together with her. Compare how hard he's had to try and satisfy MJ or keep her pinned down. And which one was more interesting?

I can't. She's way too meek. Every version of Gwen Stacy is more lively and self assured than this one. Ultimate Gwen, Gwen in Spider-Man 3, and certainly 616 Gwen.

You have no idea.

Gwen had plenty of evolution in the comics. She was up herself and very much a "beauty queen" of college in the beginning. The closer she got to Peter, the more of a likeable down to earth person she became. Often putting Flash and Harry in their place for berating Peter, too.

Gwen started out as a beauty queen in high school. And Gwen never had to try hard at all to get Peter's attention. Everything just sort of gravitated to her.

And there was plenty of evolution in their relationship, too. Gwen even left the country at one point, and that tore Peter apart.

And how long was she gone?

How was she a pushover? She left the flamin' country at one point and left Peter behind.

Everytime she got back together with Peter it was far too easy.

Ummm she was dating Harry when she got that makeover. How was that pursuing Peter? She was Harry's date.

You don't think she was trying to get him to notice her?

That's hilarious considering she was dating Harry, making him 2nd fiddle, as she didn't have any feelings for him at all.

What do expect her to do, be a wallflower? She dated Harry out of spite towards Peter/Liz.

You didn't see Peter glancing over at anything happening between Gwen/Harry. That's why she was doing it.

Exactly. She's alot more perceptive than that.

No it's because Gwen in Spectacular has more self-respect then Gwen did in the comics (and that turned out to be more true than any of us wanted, with the Norman/Gwen nonsense).

I just said that, didn't I.

You should look it up then. I'm kinda surprised you don't know.

That was a lesson Peter learned. The consequences of someone being with him while he leads this dangerous life where a villain can find out who he really is.

Yeah that stopped him from getting together with MJ didn't it?

Spider-Man 1 was more convincing in implying that logic.

It's one of the reasons why Civil War was such bull. Peter would never willingly unmask to the world. He of all people knows the consequences of your enemies knowing who you are.

Once again it cheapens the story, but then again it's been erased.

Are you seriously trying to say that over 30 years later, Gwen's death is still considered the greatest Spider-Man story ever told simply because it was a shock to the fan base back in the 70's?

Think very carefully before you answer this one.

Not entirely, but I think alot of it factors in to it being a fan favorite.

I understand that is all crapola. If you let the hacks at Marvel these days taint the classic stories for you, that's your loss.

I don't. I still adore every single one of those old school classics for what they are.

I think the term your looking for is nostalgia, in terms of whether certain past stories are ones you still like, just because you liked them back then.

I don't factor in nostalgia when I'm trying to make an objective view.

Again man, that's your loss. Darn shame.

See above

*Sigh*

Who said anything so extreme as that? Mountains out of mole hills again, mate. If they didn't show it it'd be a huge wasted opportunity to show some real vintage greatness never shown before on screen with Spidey.

Can you imagine the hype if we found out they were adapting that story? It'd be insane. And you know it.

And what if it didn't live up to the hype? It's not going dent Spidey's popularity just because someone doesn't get killed.

I'm a die hard Batman fan. I know exactly how many were adapted from the comics. Loads of them were.

Really? I'd like to hear them.

Your constant ranting about how timelines don't have to be the same as the comics, as if someone here said that they should be.

I never said anyone was complaining, and if I did put it in quotes then.

I can't agree with that. MJ floating around a dimensional portal, I knew that she'd be found eventually. That was the happy ending the show had. Madame Webb took Peter to find MJ.

She wasn't dead. Just missing temporarily. Gwen's death in the comics was a permanent loss. So far anyway

Yeah but him finding her never officially happened.

Uh huh, well I haven't seen any dramatically different results so far. So I think I'll stick to my theorey for now.

Tombstone, is one. Eddie and Pete being friends is one. Gwen having a somewhat Debra Whitman like persona is one. There's many others out there.

You have a link to where he said that, please? I didn't know that.

Sure, right here: http://tv.ign.com/articles/884/884897p3.html

He did in Final Curtain. He said he'd finally made a man out of his son, and that he's never been prouder of him.

You bought that?
Any guy who would throw his own son to the wolves to save his hide doesn't care about his son IMO. Regardless of what they say.

I don't get where you're coming from. What big change did old Bruce Wayne have? Are you talking about Batman Beyond? In comparison to what in the comics? The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel?

You have seen Batman Beyond right? Bruce Wayne sort of retires. And Terry McGinnis(an original character) takes Bruce's place. Did THAT happen in the comics? Bruce Wayne never retired and never let someone else take his place.
When Batman Beyond first aired there was a plethora of fan boys that whined about this, and some still do to this day.

If one of DC's flagship characters can have a different character take on him and survive the "backlash", then I'm sure it would be ok to have a version of Gwen Stacy live in one Spidey medium or another. Especially since as you said Gwen Stacy is not as big a character as Bruce Wayne/Batman.

Of course not. If Peter dumped her for another women then Gwen was never that important to him to begin with, was she? Much like Liz in the cartoon now.

But that was not the case.

If Peter ever found out that Norman-Gwen had twins, and she was still alive, do you think for one minute Peter wouldn't dump Gwen for betraying his trust?

 

[The Joker]

Last post on this, nygma, because we're starting to repeat ourselves. This is going nowhere, and that's boring for me...

Uh Peter barely had to try hard in terms of satisfying her/try very hard to get back together with her. Compare how hard he's had to try and satisfy MJ or keep her pinned down. And which one was more interesting?

Your comparisons are so invalid, man. You're comparing MJ, a wild party girl, whom Peter has had 30 years relationship history with, to Gwen, whom he was with for about 5 years, and they never even reached the stages of marriage. Not to mention Gwen had alot more in common with Peter than MJ does.

Why not compare MJ to Betty Brant, Black Cat, and Debra Whitman while you're at it. LOL!

You have no idea.

Speak for yourself, Mr condesending arrogance

Gwen started out as a beauty queen in high school. And Gwen never had to try hard at all to get Peter's attention. Everything just sort of gravitated to her.

Wrong. Gwen never had to try hard because she was a beauty who wasn't afraid to walk up to Peter and speak to him and say what she thought. She wasn't a meek geek with glasses like SSM's Gwen.

And how long was she gone?

Several weeks in comic book time.

Everytime she got back together with Peter it was far too easy.

How? Explain what happened that made it easy. And while you're at it, list all the times they broke up.

You don't think she was trying to get him to notice her?

Probably. But she was doing it in the wrong way. And totally giving Harry the wrong impression, too.

What do expect her to do, be a wallflower? She dated Harry out of spite towards Peter/Liz.

Yes, be a wallflower if it means not using another guy just to spite someone else. That's pathetic, cruel, and totally unfair on Harry.

I don't agree with Peter's treatment of Liz either, but at least he wasn't with her to spite someone.

No it's because Gwen in Spectacular has more self-respect then Gwen did in the comics

No, it's because Gwen in Spectacular is too meek and lacking in self confidence. That's the difference. That's the difference between this Gwen and every other version of the character.

You should look it up then. I'm kinda surprised you don't know.

Not interested.

Yeah that stopped him from getting together with MJ didn't it?

Yes it did for a long time. He never comitted to MJ properly for the longest time. But the circumstances were different with MJ. She revealed that she knew he was Spider-Man. She knew the risks of being with him and accepted them.

Something Gwen was denied. Another thing Peter had blamed himself for.

Not entirely, but I think alot of it factors in to it being a fan favorite.

How? Why should the fans of the last three decades give a rat's ass how shocked the fans were back in the 70's?

Fans love the story because it's great. It's an emotionally charged piece of greatness. Simple as that.

I think the term your looking for is nostalgia, in terms of whether certain past stories are ones you still like, just because you liked them back then.

Nostalgia? I wasn't even around when these stories first came out lol. I'm still a young man. I didn't become a Spidey fan until the mid 90's.

There is no nostalgia. Just appreciation for great stories.

And what if it didn't live up to the hype?

Ye have little faith in this show's writers. They haven't failed to deliver on all the major stories so far.

It's not going dent Spidey's popularity just because someone doesn't get killed.

A darn good thing nobody said it would then, isn't it!

Really? I'd like to hear them.

There's over a 100 episodes in that series. You expect me to list them all for you? I'll name a few off the top of my head for you:

- The Laughing Fish
- Hugo Strange learning Batman's identity and selling it to villains
- The Penguin opening a casino
- Bane wanting to break Batman
- Bullock being targeted by unknown assassin
- Jim Gordon framed for corruption
- Jim Gordon being shot and Batman blaming himself
- Ra's Al Ghul kidnapping Robin as a test to see if Batman is a worthy heir to his criminal empire
- The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy
- Killer Croc hiding out with circus freaks
- Joker's millions
- Legends of the Dark Knight
- Beware the Creeper

All based off comic book stories.

I never said anyone was complaining

Then why are you always raising the point if it's not even an issue?

Yeah but him finding her never officially happened.

Irrelevant. The happy ending was them going to get her. It was an ending of hope.

Tombstone, is one. Eddie and Pete being friends is one. Gwen having a somewhat Debra Whitman like persona is one. There's many others out there.

Apart from Eddie and Peter, those are minute differences. And Eddie had to have a connection to Peter in order to improve his weak backstory in the comics.

The fact he hated Spider-Man when they never even met was laughable. A weak basis for a personal feud.

Sure, right here: http://tv.ign.com/articles/884/884897p3.html

I don't see it. Can you quote the lines for me, please.

You bought that?

Yes, he had no reason to lie to Spidey about it. If he wanted to be a real bastard he'd rub salt into the wound and say he enjoyed disgracing Harry like that.

In his own twisted way, Norman cares about Harry.

You have seen Batman Beyond right? Bruce Wayne sort of retires. And Terry McGinnis(an original character) takes Bruce's place. Did THAT happen in the comics? Bruce Wayne never retired and never let someone else take his place.

Another failed comparison. How many Batman comics are set in the future like that? One story. One stand alone story. And it's not even canon. So who cares what they do with the future in the cartoon?

And for your information, Bruce has let people take his mantle in the comics when he was unable to. Azrael and Dick Grayson have both been Batman with Bruce's blessing. And those stories are canon.

Is it such a stretch of the imagination to believe he'd pass the mantle on when Gotham still needed Batman?

If one of DC's flagship characters can have a different character take on him and survive the "backlash", then I'm sure it would be ok to have a version of Gwen Stacy live in one Spidey medium or another. Especially since as you said Gwen Stacy is not as big a character as Bruce Wayne/Batman.

As mentioned above, futuristic Batman stories are minute in the comics. They're essentially what if stories, too. None of them are canon because Batman is not set in the future.

And second, Bruce allowing someone to take up the mantle of the Batman when he is unable to is something that is canon.

If Peter ever found out that Norman-Gwen had twins, and she was still alive, do you think for one minute Peter wouldn't dump Gwen for betraying his trust?

Of course not. Which is why I don't take the hack writing of that story seriously at all. Because I also don't believe Peter would so easily forgive MJ for harbouring that secret from him and Harry for all those years, too.

How could he ever trust MJ again either. He'd be constantly wondering what else is she keeping from him. But he forgave her in like 5 seconds.

The whole story was hokey and full of plot holes.

 

[Chris Wallace]

For some reason I defended the story at first. Now I'm mad that they can retcon the marriage out of existence but leave that intact.

 

[Havok83]

I say no. I dont really think it would be right especially since this show is very kid friendly and its Peter in his high school years. Assuming this series stays with his as a young teen, I think they should leave her alive

BTW, when did Gwen get a makeover? One minute she's a geek with short hair and now I see she has long hair and they have her looking pretty

 

[Anwar]

Her hair had been growing out since the season started (Harry commented on it in "First Steps") and kept growing out in subsequent episodes. MJ gave Gwen a makeover in "Gangland" for Valentines day.

Makes me wonder when Peter is going to decide to wear less baggy clothing so his spider-enhanced physique will show off better.

 

[Webhead2006]

Well if we do get a 3rd season which i believe we will. i would hope peter would get a new waredore and maybe a new hair cut. Heck they changed his nose slightly from Season 1 where is looked more like a square and more it more natural looking this season.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

^Great observation!

I hope Peter do show off his muscular look to the ladies! LOL...

 

[Webhead2006]

yea it would be nice if we get some new hair dudes on a few other characters and some more outfit changes and with season 3 its likely going to be set during summer break between spring of junior yr(season 2) and fall semester of senior yr(season 4).

 

[SpaceWay2009]

yea it would be nice if we get some new hair dudes on a few other characters and some more outfit changes and with season 3 its likely going to be set during summer break between spring of junior yr(season 2) and fall semester of senior yr(season 4).

Oh...you're right! We might see the characters in summer clothes, such as shorts, skirts, sandals, t-shirts, etc! LOL...That would be a nice change. t:

 

[Webhead2006]

yea it would i like when shows like these animated shows change up outfits every once in awhile, it gets boring to have the same outfits all the time. But i know the reason its done for most shows is to save money and less work for animators.

 

[Dread]

http://news.toonzone.net/articles/2...erview-greg-weisman-on-spectacular-spider-man

An interview that Toonzone did with Greg Wiesman that was posted on 3/22/09 and Greg brings up his own opinion on the subject:

MAA/TZN: That's cool. Riffing off that same idea, one thing that everybody knows about Gwen Stacy is "The Death of Gwen Stacy." How did you manage the weight of those expectations while you were writing season 1?

WEISMAN: Well, I think the thing to keep in mind, from my point of view personally, has to do with how old I am. I'm not quite old enough that I was reading Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, but when I started reading Spider-Man, I was reading Lee/Romita, and so to me, if someone said, "Spider-Man," that's what I thought of. So Gwen's a very important character to me. I know exactly what you mean when people -- particularly to a more modern, younger audience – say that the thing that people remember about Gwen is her death, but for me, that's not true. I remember being shattered by her death, but I remember GWEN. I remember falling in love with Gwen reading those issues when I was a kid, so what I wanted was for the audience to fall in love with Gwen. In terms of what's on the horizon for her, we're not going to make that what she's about. We're going to make her into the type of character that people fall in love with. And we're going to try and make it real. One of the challenges with characters like Gwen, or Mary Jane or Harry, specifically those three, is that we didn't meet them until Pete went to college, and we didn't want to take their college personas and slap them down into high school. We were cheating by putting them into high school at all. We didn't want to wait four years to introduce these characters who are so important, so we decided to extrapolate backwards. We know what they were like in college, so what might they have been like in high school? We weren't slapping the college Gwen Stacy or the college Harry Osborn into the high school era. We were figuring out, "Hey, what was Harry or Gwen like in high school? What might they have been like?" and trying to create something that was both surprising for the audience, but also would feel true as we moved forwards through the seasons.

MAA/TZN: I have to admit that you he had me going at the end of season 1 about that, though. I was actually a little surprised at how upset I was at the idea that it might actually happen.

WEISMAN: Well, we love the character, and I'm glad you feel that way. Really, that's what I was trying to do. It bothers me that all anyone thinks of when they think of Gwen Stacy is her death, because, again, that wasn't my experience. We have no intention of killing her in the short term. She didn't die until college, we're still in their junior year of high school. And not that her death wasn't significant, but that's not what I think of, and for all the strengths of the movies, one of the things that always struck me was that the Mary Jane Watson they created in the first movie was really a lot more Gwen Stacy than she ever was Mary Jane. I wanted you to care about Gwen, not just go, "(Oh, she's a) target" but actually care about her as a character, so if we succeeded, I'm really glad.

You succeeded with me, dude.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ I second that. Great words by Weisman.

 

[Mutagen]

^^ A good read. I still want to see her death though, if they have enough time to bring in MJ as the main interest. If not, well I don't mind seeing Parker happy.

 

[Sentinel X]

I agree with his comment about the movies. Movie Mary Jane is like Gwen Stacy and Movie Gwen Stacy is like Mary Jane.

I really like Gwen as a character and I think its cool how she has so much in common with Peter and how geeky she is. They seem like a perfect match. And I never had the whole experience Greg had...I am only familiar with the death of Gwen stacy storyline and I hear her refrenced a lot but I never knew Gwen Stacy as a character. I don't know if this Gwen Stacy is anything like the real comic book Gwen Stacy but she is certainly very likable and is an underdog like Peter.

 

[nygma619]

Last post on this, nygma, because we're starting to repeat ourselves. This is going nowhere, and that's boring for me...

Your comparisons are so invalid, man. You're comparing MJ, a wild party girl, whom Peter has had 30 years relationship history with, to Gwen, whom he was with for about 5 years, and they never even reached the stages of marriage. Not to mention Gwen had alot more in common with Peter than MJ does.

To me Gwen was written to be far too idealized. All the guys wanted her and she fit into anybody's world far too conveiniently. That's one of the reasons I call Gwen in the comics a boarderline Mary Sue.

Why not compare MJ to Betty Brant, Black Cat, and Debra Whitman while you're at it. LOL!

Because we're comparing them on the grounds of their long term relationships. Not different women from the Spider-Man world randomly.

Wrong. Gwen never had to try hard because she was a beauty who wasn't afraid to walk up to Peter and speak to him and say what she thought. She wasn't a meek geek with glasses like SSM's Gwen.

Yes because no one ever said no to Gwen. So why would she not have any confidence.
Gwen in SSM is more interesting to me, because while she doesn't have the same cards/benefits that Marvel 616 gave her. She actually has to work harder.

Several weeks in comic book time.

That's it?! Six months to a year would've had far more impact for something like that.

How? Explain what happened that made it easy. And while you're at it, list all the times they broke up.

They broke up two times as far as I can remember, and when they got back together it was far too easy to the point, that I wondered why they broke up to begin with.
one being after peter attacked a mind controlled capt. stacy. she just forgave him easily after the heat of the incident wore off.
second being with Gwen going to France to get away from the incident of her father getting shot, though she was secretly hoping for Peter to propose to her. But it didn't happen. But she came crawling back.

Probably. But she was doing it in the wrong way. And totally giving Harry the wrong impression, too.



Yes, be a wallflower if it means not using another guy just to spite someone else. That's pathetic, cruel, and totally unfair on Harry.

Their teenagers there going to make those kinds of mistakes. I'd rather see a character grow and learn from their mistakes. And actually evolve, like this shows version of Gwen is. She might seem meek now, but what in 1-3 seasons down the road? I could easily see this shows version of Gwen evolve in to perhaps Marvel Animations best love interest for a character.

I don't agree with Peter's treatment of Liz either, but at least he wasn't with her to spite someone.

No he was with her, because he didn't want to face his fears about his feelings for Gwen right away. That's perfectly understandable behavior when you've been best friends for more than 5 grades.

No, it's because Gwen in Spectacular is too meek and lacking in self confidence. That's the difference. That's the difference between this Gwen and every other version of the character.

No because this Gwen has to try harder to overcome her flaws, where as other versions barely had any noteworthy flaws to overcome.

Not interested.

Afraid of knowing the truth?

here's the definition-"sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, or having too many, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers."

Read that part overly idealized, because IMO that's what Gwen in 616 was.

How? Why should the fans of the last three decades give a rat's ass how shocked the fans were back in the 70's?

Because they'll believe the hype for the sake of not knowing better.

Fans love the story because it's great. It's an emotionally charged piece of greatness. Simple as that.

And it still is, but it doesn't have the impact with me as the first time I read it, because of all the liberations taken throughout the years.

Ye have little faith in this show's writers. They haven't failed to deliver on all the major stories so far.

I beg to differ, while none of them are even bad or mediocre. I felt the symbiote arc was done alot better in the 90's TAS show. I never felt Peter had a really dramatic reason to get rid of the black suit. The Venom Arc lacks the same emotional truth in terms of his interactions with his bro IMO.
As for the Gang Wars Arc, I thought they stumbled with Tombstone's character in the sense that he was outed way too soon, when there were far more potential with a clean Tombstone left. Also his invulnerability added alot more than people think as it gave him that edge that no other Spidery rogue had. And they took that away by having Spidey beat Tombstone clean (no dumb luck, no contrivances, CLEAN)

A darn good thing nobody said it would then, isn't it!

Then why did you repeatedly respond again and again then?

There's over a 100 episodes in that series. You expect me to list them all for you? I'll name a few off the top of my head for you:

- The Laughing Fish
- Hugo Strange learning Batman's identity and selling it to villains
- The Penguin opening a casino
- Bane wanting to break Batman
- Bullock being targeted by unknown assassin
- Jim Gordon framed for corruption
- Jim Gordon being shot and Batman blaming himself
- Ra's Al Ghul kidnapping Robin as a test to see if Batman is a worthy heir to his criminal empire
- The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy
- Killer Croc hiding out with circus freaks
- Joker's millions
- Legends of the Dark Knight
- Beware the Creeper

All based off comic book stories.

Some of these are far too loose to be called comic book adaptations. Penguin never owned a casino, Bane never damaged Batman missing the entire point of Knightfall.
Also stuff like Jim Gordon being framed and shot, are just taking ideas from the comics. Not a true adaptation.

Then why are you always raising the point if it's not even an issue?

Cause you keep asking why, even though I already told you.

Apart from Eddie and Peter, those are minute differences. And Eddie had to have a connection to Peter in order to improve his weak backstory in the comics.

The fact he hated Spider-Man when they never even met was laughable. A weak basis for a personal feud.

Uh Tombstone being the Big Man is hardly a minute difference as it's made Tombstone into a major player on this show, Tombstone was a nobody in the comics.

And Eddie Brock's reasoning for hating Spidey was still believeable in the 90's show.

I don't see it. Can you quote the lines for me, please.

The only way to do that storyline justice is a more adult like story, and he hinted at the DVD's would be a little more adult oriented.

Yes, he had no reason to lie to Spidey about it. If he wanted to be a real bastard he'd rub salt into the wound and say he enjoyed disgracing Harry like that.

In his own twisted way, Norman cares about Harry.

I don't believe he would put his own family before his own selfish desires, if you believe that more power to you. I don't see it.

Norman tried reaching out to Peter, because Harry didn't fulfill any sort of intellectual mold that he wanted to.

Another failed comparison. How many Batman comics are set in the future like that? One story. One stand alone story. And it's not even canon. So who cares what they do with the future in the cartoon?

At this point Batman is about as old as Bruce was in Batman Beyond, though the comics version has aged much better.

And for your information, Bruce has let people take his mantle in the comics when he was unable to. Azrael and Dick Grayson have both been Batman with Bruce's blessing. And those stories are canon.

Those were only for a brief time, they were never permanent like in Batman Beyond.

Is it such a stretch of the imagination to believe he'd pass the mantle on when Gotham still needed Batman?

And that's why some fanboys whined about that. They couldn't see it in Batman Beyond, even though some of us could.

Of course not. Which is why I don't take the hack writing of that story seriously at all. Because I also don't believe Peter would so easily forgive MJ for harbouring that secret from him and Harry for all those years, too.

How could he ever trust MJ again either. He'd be constantly wondering what else is she keeping from him. But he forgave her in like 5 seconds.

The whole story was hokey and full of plot holes.

MJ's sin is not even on the same scale as Gwen's sin was. So Peter forgiving MJ wasn't that big a deal in context.