The Dark Knight Harvey Dent/Two Face Thread

[ronny]

Gordan? Come on.

 

[secretsquirrely]

In regards to Harvey being the Dark Knight. They would not name a Batman movie after Two-Fac. Also, if you paid attention to the final speech of the film you hear them say clearly that Harvey is the White Knight and Batman is the Dark Knight. This is all from the public and Gordon's perception. Harvey gave everyone what they wanted. Now with Batman taking the blame for Dent's crimes, in order to keep his White Knight status, he will become the villain. Beause of such sacrifice, Batman's desire to watch over Gotham, but his will to step over boundaries, in Gordon's eyes..Batman is the Dark Knight to Harvey's White Knight.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this or even noticed this, but I personally don't believe Batman is The Dark Knight in this story, even though admittedly that alias is inherently his own in the comic books; but this could be a clever subtext in the film by Nolan.

“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”​

That quote is ultimately the pretext, the main theme, behind the story. I see it as an evolution to that of which proceeded it in Batman Begins with Bruce's realisation that, in his attempt to fight the criminal underworld, he as a man is as weak and as potent as any other individual in the crowd. But as a symbol, he is more, he's just enough to make a difference. So it's no surprise that Nolan uses this form of mentality to be the ingredients for the success of his films.​

After seeing the movie, the most memorable character to me was not breath-taking performance of Ledger's Joker, nor Batman's grit, or even Alfred's English wit, but I was the only one who considered Harvey Dent as the protagonist in this story. His transformation and overall meaning to the story is undeniable. He is the 'White Knight', but through his transformation, wouldn't it make more sense to identify him as the 'Dark Knight'?​

Yes okay, you have an opposite to this White Knight, the Batman; they're both Knights in their own sense yet why is there a difference to justify the 'White/'Dark' metaphor? Is Batman really that dark? The one who ultimately rejects becoming that villain, and risks his own life to stay true to that principle? Or can Harvey Dent - the one who himself bought life to that quote, be seen as that Dark Knight?​

In my eyes, there is simply more to justify Harvey Dent as the Dark Knight rather than the Batman. Just my 2 cents​

You could argue that both Dent and Batman are Dark Knights, yes. Dent, becoming Two-Face, has become a "Dark Knight" himself, not tied to a specific "liege" if you will, now functioning outside of the system, just like Batman is. I think Nolan would appreciate some reflection on who the Dark Knight really is, but I think that both Dent AND Batman are Dark Knights by the end of TDK.

Batman and Dent are seen as two sides of the same coin throughout the whole movie. Prior to the creation of Two-Face, Dent served his White Knight role and Batman served his Dark Knight role. By the time Two-Face is unleashed, the differences between the two are blurred. Dent becomes a vigilante, and Batman is *this* close to becoming one. Ultimately, Dent as Two-Face is willing to do what Batman won't (at least willingly) in the name of justice (i.e. murder).

After Dent dies, Batman wants to preserve the White Knight/Dark Knight balance he feels society needs, and becomes Two-Face. Or rather, the murdering vigilante, so Gotham can keep their White Knight in Dent. Of course, we know better.

 

[Matt Mortem]

I personaly think Two-Face is alive. Batman survived that fall with a gunshot wound. (plus i just want to see more two-face)

 

[Beanjuice]

I personaly think Two-Face is alive. Batman survived that fall with a gunshot wound. (plus i just want to see more two-face)

again,batman was wearing armor

 

[nolan's roll'n]

If Dent is dead, then that is shame. Way to say he was a backbone of the story and kill him off like Venom in Spiderman 3.

 

[DACrowe]

He was the backbone of the story that needed to have its resolution and not end asking for a sequel. Dent was the heart of the film and his arc from adament believer in law and seeing things through a black and white lens to becoming the personification of his summation of Batman and everything he detested.

His is a tragic arc in the same mold as the Greeks or even say MacBeth as a parable. He falls from grace. The movie needed an end point for this which became his death. He died a villain, but Batman will take the blame so Dent can be the hero Gotham needs. This is not just for the sake of making Batman go on the run or for beating the Joker, but thematically Dent needed to be redeemed in some way for the tragedy to resonate.

Leaving him alive so he can appear in a sequel is not what NOlan was going to do because he wanted this movie to stand on its own and not have to be dependent on any other film (like the horrid Pirates sequels). Since Dent was the centerpiece of the movie he was not "wasted" like Venom who was merely a subplot in an already too crowded movie.

As for the dark knight business. Batman is the Dark Knight for obvious reasons. It's his namesake and also he is the one who can go outside the law without totally discarding it to help people. He is the weapon Gotham needs to combat its corruption and insanity. AS it said, he is the hero Gotham deserves. Dent was the white knight because he was a golden boy who believed in giving his life to public service and making the world a better place by helping those around him. He did it in the confines of the law.

He sees Batman as what he wishes he could do, to the point of almost crossing the line until Batman pushes him back into place. He and Batman envy each other's positions, but Batman is the dark knight because he can do what he thinks is necessary while Dent feels limited. In the end after he loses everything he crosses that line beyond "white knight" as it is already tarnished and becomes a villain. He is not heroic in killing for revenge and he surely loses a lot of his sympathy at the end wwhen he is holding a gun to a boy's head for self-satisfaction.

Oy.

 

[bell110]

I personaly think Two-Face is alive. Batman survived that fall with a gunshot wound. (plus i just want to see more two-face)

Yeah, most likely the took him to the ICU and keep him under close psychiatric watch.

 

[Meus]

I can fully appreciate the arguments for Batman being seen as the real Dark Knight but these arguments focus more so on the general concept of Batman; the hidden fist of the law, the silent guardian and so on.

But in respect to the actual theme and script of this sequel, the emphasis on Dents incorruptible character and in many facets a potential replacement for Bruce's costume, and then the transformation of that White Knight into becoming that villain by choice whereas Batman himself rejects that choice - I still very much believe that there is a strong argument for Harvey Dent being the real Dark Knight aswell. How do you get something that is white to be dark? You have to make it dirty, and in the context of the film, you turn it evil, you turn it bad = Harvey Dent.

 

[The Caped Knight]

New photo from Andre@s

 

[Manosman]

I can fully appreciate the arguments for Batman being seen as the real Dark Knight but these arguments focus more so on the general concept of Batman; the hidden fist of the law, the silent guardian and so on.

But in respect to the actual theme and script of this sequel, the emphasis on Dents incorruptible character and in many facets a potential replacement for Bruce's costume, and then the transformation of that White Knight into becoming that villain by choice whereas Batman himself rejects that choice - I still very much believe that there is a strong argument for Harvey Dent being the real Dark Knight aswell. How do you get something that is white to be dark? You have to make it dirty, and in the context of the film, you turn it evil, you turn it bad = Harvey Dent.

I see what you are saying, and actually kind of agree with you in a way. Harvey is the White Knight, Batman the Dark Knight, once harvey is scarred and starts getting "justice" he is no longer the white knight, but can be seen as a dark knight in that he is still doing "right" in a sense, batman can then be seen as the white knight compared to harvey's dark knight.

harvey=white knight
batman=dark knight
scarring
two-face=dark knight
batman=white knight, compared to two-face

thematically this can work, but i wouldn't consider two-face a hero at all since he out for revenge and is unhinged mentally.

On the other hand, when harvey is scarred and goes out and kills for revenge, he is no longer the white knight, and not even a dark knight either, he is now a villain. batman is still the dark knight because he doesn't use conventional ways of fighting crime, he is still doing good but its in a dark way.

harvey=white knight
Batman=dark knight
scarring
two-face=villain
batman=dark knight

citizens view:
harvey=white knight
batman=wanted murderer


whew

 

[DW4]

If Dent is dead, then that is shame. Way to say he was a backbone of the story and kill him off like Venom in Spiderman 3.

Comparing Two-Face from TDK and Venom from SP3 IMHO is just dumb.

 

[nolan's roll'n]

Comparing Two-Face from TDK and Venom from SP3 IMHO is just dumb.

My point was that both died and were vital characters.

 

[DACrowe]

I can fully appreciate the arguments for Batman being seen as the real Dark Knight but these arguments focus more so on the general concept of Batman; the hidden fist of the law, the silent guardian and so on.

But in respect to the actual theme and script of this sequel, the emphasis on Dents incorruptible character and in many facets a potential replacement for Bruce's costume, and then the transformation of that White Knight into becoming that villain by choice whereas Batman himself rejects that choice - I still very much believe that there is a strong argument for Harvey Dent being the real Dark Knight aswell. How do you get something that is white to be dark? You have to make it dirty, and in the context of the film, you turn it evil, you turn it bad = Harvey Dent.

I understand what you're saying but it boils down to it that Dent wasn't seeking justice. He was seeking revenge and Nolan made it very clear how simple vengeance is viewed in these films in BB with "They're never the same thing. Justice is about harmony, revenge is about making yourself feel better."

Dent even let it come down to a coin flip and was thereby removing himself from the decision in his own head. He can say chance killed them, but it is a psychological crutch so he doesn't have to choose to say the word "die." But he is ultimately the real villain who is out for revenge.

There is no justice to be found in holding a gun to Gordon's family. He is not a knight and he is not justified. He may be self-righteous still but he has clearly lost his mind and could not see beyond his own pain. Batman is the dark knight because he is still crusading to help people and not ease his own insecurities like Two-Face was.

It also helps that the last line of the movie is Gordon calling Batman the dark knight.

 

[DACrowe]

My point was that both died and were vital characters.

Not really. Two-Face was a vital point to the movie. In fact I'd say Harvey Dent is the centerpiece of the movie. Batman may be the leading hero/protagonist and Joker may be the scene stealing character with equal time as Dent, but Dent is the character that propels the plot. The movie truly begins and ends with his arc.

Two-Face is a vital character in the movie who in his short screentime as a villain leaves his mark and is fully utilized and realized. His confrontation with Batman and Gordon is the true climax of the movie and is built up to naturally and heartbreakingly without any flinching awkwardness. Two-Face is the point of the movie and his death concludes the themes of the movie in tragedy, but strong resolution.

Venom was a subplot in SM3 that was given as little screentime as possible by the writer and director after he was shoe-horned in several drafts into the film. He then was given awkward intrusions to be developed and his turn to villainy felt arbitrary rather than natural and when he was killed off, it was more done out of formulaic convenience, even if there was symbolism in his death, it is mostly lost.

Venom was a needless and messy subplot, Two-Face was the heart of TDK. I don't see the comparison as apt.

 

[ronny]

When Harvey was being put into the police van why were some people clapping?

 

[TheLongestDay]

He's NOT dead-sorry if this is old:

Aaron Eckhart would reprise his role from The Dark Knight - because working with Christian Bale is "phenomenal".

Eckhart, who plays District Attorney Harvey Dent in the sequel, confesses he "absolutely" would star in a third Batman film.

He tells WENN, "To work with Christian (Bale) all over again, and the cast, would be phenomenal. I think this movie is a movie of a lifetime."

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni0265713/

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

When Harvey was being put into the police van why were some people clapping?

Commending him for taking the fall as The Batman.

 

[cerealkiller182]

When Harvey was being put into the police van why were some people clapping?

It was either to applaud him for his actions as Batman (as he just admitted to it), or because Batman had finally been caught.

 

[TheLongestDay]

When Harvey was being put into the police van why were some people clapping?

cuz at that point most people thought he was Batman-thats why he was arrested.

So they were clapping him for that,notice the corrupt coppers werent tho

 

[Anita18]

The most ridiculous line in the movie. Its so cheesey.

My writer friend was saying how it's a difficult line for an actor to pull off, because there's no natural rhythm to it. She thought Aaron did a great job with that line.

Dent lived to become a villain, but when he died, Batman and Gordon made him the hero. Batman is "incorruptible" according to Joker and thus still "heroic," but to the public, he's the villain now.

 

[AIRWOLF]

Yep, Dent did become the villain but he died a hero in eyes of the public. I wonder how Batman is going to clear his name though.

 

[DieSmiling]

In reality, Harvey lived long enough to become the villain. There's no doubt about that... But the line applies to Batman in the eyes of the public as well.

 

[Quinzel]

Yep, Dent did become the villain but he died a hero in eyes of the public. I wonder how Batman is going to clear his name though.

I don't think Batman is to worried about clearing his name.

I'm thinking IF they make another movie,it'll probably be based off of the Batman Fugitive comics.

or something similiar. But without all of the others, such as Nightwing.

.....maybe not. lol.

 

[raynorWilm]

Yea, Harvey lived long enough to see himself become the villian, but because Batman takes the blame for the murders, he therefore allows for Harvey to die a hero....pretty crafty if you ask me..