The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[MarkJK1441]

I am going to laugh so hard if Harvey acts like TLJ in BF

I would laugh, and then die on the inside, and then i would never watch a batman movie again. But, luckly this is never going to happen.

 

[explode7]

Don't be soo sure.

 

[Indrid Cold]

The biggest spoiler to come out of all of this:

There's an iPhone in TDK.





That's some earth-shattering s**t right there.

**UPDATE** The iPhone has nipples

 

[Nightwing1977]

Don't be soo sure.

Don't be so sure? Oh please! That like being so sure Iron Man can make more money than Spider-Man 1: not going to happend. We know for sure Two-Face in Nolan's film will be very serious & sinister like in the comics than the awful Two-Face in BF.

 

[explode7]

Who said IM is going to make more money that Spiderman 1?

 

[-Crusher-]

Don't be so sure? Oh please! That like being so sure Iron Man can make more money than Spider-Man 1: not going to happend. We know for sure Two-Face in Nolan's film will be very serious & sinister like in the comics than the awful Two-Face in BF.

dont jinx it! BF twoface was okay, but not true to the character.

 

[The Mighty Wind]

Interesting enough though. This is out of respect cuz you know I loves ya Stormin. But you do make great points about how Nolan is getting the characterization right on Two-Face it seems to me he has hit the nail on the head. And I love what we have of Two-Face so far. Though some have complained about his look, not being perfectly half and half like it is in the comics. Yet you do not mention this. To me this is the same with the complaint of the Joker not being Permwhite. One little visual aspect, that is different. Yet Nolan has hit the nail on the head with the characterization of the Joker. And this to me is the same with Two-Face perfect characterization, but visually a little different then from before.

A while back I wrote this on the Makeup Page about the Joker. I hope you like it, to me its how I see what Nolan has done with the Joker.

I kinda took some time to write out “why” I don't mind the Joker not being perma-white. Now I'm not saying that, because I'm right, but I fully understand why Nolan took this route, and saw it still as the core of what makes the Joker, the Clown Prince Of Crime.

First I want to look at just the classic (and great) comic book version of the Joker. He is a man, no one really knows his history before the “accident” but that can always be left up for imagination. Yet when he fell into the chemicals by most versions his skin was bleached white. Now, I always try to look at it from a different point of view. Joker gets out of the vat of chemicals, now he is bleached. Technically being bleached skin does not make a person automatically a clown like person. There are real people out there with bleached skin, or pigment issues and right away one does not go: “Hey its a clown!” When the Joker saw himself in a mirror or what ever, he himself decided, and felt that he looked like a clown, then in deciding to make that so, he did many things to give him the clown appearance. White skin is just one step in looking like a clown. He put on theatrical clothes, of odd colors: purple, orange, green. To give him a more theatrical and some what comical look such as a clown. Adding red lipstick or black eye shadow on his eye sockets, to make himself look more clown like. Not only that he chose to use toys, and act like a clown, and laugh like one too. These for the most part are choices, though fate was thrust upon him, these were still choices made by him.

Technically the bleached Joker could have gone out people would of looked at him like a freak, but not necessarily a clown. And he could of gotten black paint and made himself look like a Zebra, and called him self the “Zebra Killer” but he did not, he chose the clown persona. And acted as such, either because he felt that is what he looked like or not, he still chose that look for himself.

Now look at the Joker in “The Dark Knight” we have a guy who we have no idea what his past is. Yet he clearly had a deformity thrust upon him, which was this time the accident is not chemicals but a freakish scar that made it look like a smile on his face. With this deformation just like the comic book Joker this one decided he looked like a clown, and put on make up, and made a clown ensemble: the purple, green, and orange look. Not only that he put on the red lipstick and black as well, though yes the difference is that he put on the white and the green hair as well. Yet he still has a deformation that makes him stand out in his own eyes, so because of this event he feels he needs to look like a clown, for what ever reason that may be, we will never know, its the Joker, he is truly and unknown in so many ways.

Yet again it seems to me that Nolan has the core of the character, yes he made one twist on it, but still the results are the same.


Both Jokers:

A. Had an accident that caused some type of deformation.
B. Both felt they must of looked like a clown in their own eyes.

1. C.They both created the clown ensemble around their deformations.

Though I know some see it differently and that is fine. But to me Nolan contained the core of the Joker, in why he does what he does, and why he looks like a clown. Though the approach is different the results in some way are the same.

Though I know some people go well, a scar is not as deforming as a chemical bath. Well, I say “untrue” to that. People think scars are so easily fixed by plastic surgery, well they are not, besides TDKR why doesn't Two-Face right away turn around and get plastic surgery? Because its deeper then that, its not just because they physical deformation they are freaks, but the Joker is also a freak because of his mind, and the way he thinks. He is a sociopath he does not follow norms.

Technically if the Joker wanted to he could cover up being perma-white, with make up just as Joker did in B89, if he truly wanted to fit in. But he does not, the Joker does not fit in because he wants to be a freak. And he just adds to it by creating an clown ensemble.

And to me the scars in TDK are not just for visual alone. They are visuals in the sense that Nolan decided it to be the deformation process, yet on top of that, they are the deformation that sends the Joker over the edge, and making him, or having him dawn the clown persona. So the scars and the perma-white are both in a way two different deformations yet they achieve the same person we know as the Joker. In principle.

So in final words as I see it the Joker in TDK, and the Joker in the comics though they have a huge alteration, still achieve the same character, and characteristics of one another. I wrote this because some of the fine gentlemen on this board maybe wonder why I am completely fine with a make-up Joker. And this is because I see it this way. That they are both the Joker, and besides one deviation they both are the same character that we know and love.

Everything that I have been thinking for the past few months.

I don't think I'm as against makeup as a lot on here are, but it still bothers me a bit (just as it bothers me that this Joker is not the full narcissist in nature we know and love). The rationalization above however is what keeps me tied to this character, why I think it works, I why I still hold a lot of faith in TDK's Joker. I think the problem for a lot of us is that we expect 100% comic accuracy and in most cases, I apologize, we're idiots for doing so. Comic book pages do not work on the screen, they just don't, there is a major difference between drawings and film, in both their look and how they are absorbed by their audience. It does kind of suck that certain elements which we love don't translate into certain situations the way that we want them to, but I think maybe if we took a step back we'd save ourselves a lot of frustration.

 

[The Mighty Wind]

I hate the idea that Harvey's dad used a double sided coin. Its campy - even considering the subject matter.

But yes - Harvey did have problems. But by the time he became DA, he had dealt with his demons. He had become a stable guy. He would of been okay - had it not been for the Falcone case.

I know that I've argued this with you in the past to some extent, and maybe we agree, but I don't see Harvey as that wholly perfect figure you do, otherwise he wouldn't be tragic to me. Harvey needs to have some sort of personal issues, and whether they be in his past or related to the mob case it doesn't matter, but a lot has to be done to him before the scarring for him to snap when it occurs.

So whether its his dad abusing him as a kid (too cliched for my liking), whether its him simply trying to carry far too much responsibility (an aspect thats pretty much necessary in my humble opinion), whether its a love interest (Rachel) dying (something I become more and more convinced of with each passing week, and I think is perfect for the plot) there need to be something that eats away at Harvey, and there needs to be that vengeful side inside him that comes out. I am not saying that Harvey needs to have major anger issues, or a schizophrenic past (I'm not really in favour of that) but I do think that Harvey needs to start to break down well before the acid attack, for believability's sake, and because watching a man slowly dwindle away as he tries to fight something he can't is much more tragic than a white knight going balls out nuts from disfiguration.

There's a major possibility I'm agreeing with you entirely here, in which case, hooray for saying my opinion anyways.

 

[The Mighty Wind]

Why does the child abuse matter? Because without it, Two-Face would be a completely different villain.

Let's say Harvey was never abused, and he just had a really stressful time before the Roman case and then gets acid in his face. Why would he become obsessed with duality? The odds are he may have just became disillusioned with the justice system and decided to take things into his own hands.

However, the way his dad abused him planted the seed that would later lead Harvey to turn to Two-Face. His dad took a two headed coin, and would tell Harvey "If I flip tails, you won't get beaten." Well, obviously he never flipped tails because it was a two-headed coin.

This kind of abuse was just as mental as it was physical, Harvey probably thought that fate had it out for him. There were two choices for him, get beaten or not get beaten, and fate always seemed to throw him the wrong choice.

In short, it planted the seed for his obsession with the duality of life, and that's what Two-Face is all about. He's not just another crazy with a "bad" split personality. That split personality has a motive, and it's motive is it's obsession with Duality. Without the child abuse, Harvey may not have even formed the split personality after the acid, but instead decided to simply become a violent vigilante and deal out justice on his own terms.

In short, the child abuse made Two-Face the unique villain he is today.

Not really. There are plenty of reason's for an obsession with duality, and really it takes a bigger stretch to reason that his father is the cause for duality than many other factors.

1. The scarring to begin with has a major impact on Harvey's persona, it splits his face, and it splits his mind.

2. Justice vs. Vengeance, something that begins to haunt Harvey before the scarring, how can he stop the violence, does he try to

I really don't buy the coin flipping as a seed for duality either, because there was no duality to it. Yes Harvey thought there was, but if he got beaten night after night, if he had it revealed that there never was a choice between the two, that completely deconstructs the very idea of duality within him. The only thing that the abuse then establishes is Harvey's obsession with the coin, and the emotional scarring his father laid into him. If Harvey were to have the beatings fully imprinted within him, upon breaking he would choose violence every time. I don't buy it, and I see it as entirely unnecessary. It works on some levels but there is enough material to establish Harvey without it that it becomes kind of redundant.

 

[Jick]

We know for sure Two-Face in Nolan's film will be very serious & sinister like in the comics than the awful Two-Face in BF.

sinister?
sinister in the looks, you mean?
according to what he said, he'll be a kind of vigilant.
"In villains terms and films, characters are always trying to do justice to your code of conduct, and I believe that Harvey Two-Face has his own code, he murders people for reasons that stay secret. It is interesting to show that there are reasons for his behavior. It depends what side you find more attraction and exciting. A man who goes murdering people is a vigilant."
y'know...not a psycho guy.
a site I frequent brought something interesting up.
that maybe Nolan and his crew are trying to build an opposition between the vigilant who kills (Harvey) and the vigilant who doesn't kill (Batman). that it would be a nice development for this franchise.

 

[Vaportrail]

I'm finding it hard to imagine where Two-Face even fits in this film. It could be the Joker-fixated teaser we were given... I dunno.
It seems like he's gonna be a last minute thing.

 

[Sandouras]

Six pages about why nolan got two-face right, when we haven even seen how he looks, besides a toy picture, let alone seeing a scene with two-face or a plot line about him.

Way to go SHH. You trully have no lives!

 

[Mr. Socko]

Six pages about why nolan got two-face right, when we haven even seen how he looks, besides a toy picture, let alone seeing a scene with two-face or a plot line about him.

Way to go SHH. You trully have no lives!

Give me yours!!

 

[MissHush]

I'm finding it hard to imagine where Two-Face even fits in this film. It could be the Joker-fixated teaser we were given... I dunno.
It seems like he's gonna be a last minute thing.

i agree. i feel dent won't be seen as even slightly crazy until the last 10 minutes are so. something like begins where the VERY last seen is like a slight preview of two-face coming out of the shadows, then the credits.

 

[Solidus]

Everything that I have been thinking for the past few months.

I don't think I'm as against makeup as a lot on here are, but it still bothers me a bit (just as it bothers me that this Joker is not the full narcissist in nature we know and love). The rationalization above however is what keeps me tied to this character, why I think it works, I why I still hold a lot of faith in TDK's Joker. I think the problem for a lot of us is that we expect 100% comic accuracy and in most cases, I apologize, we're idiots for doing so. Comic book pages do not work on the screen, they just don't, there is a major difference between drawings and film, in both their look and how they are absorbed by their audience. It does kind of suck that certain elements which we love don't translate into certain situations the way that we want them to, but I think maybe if we took a step back we'd save ourselves a lot of frustration.

As for the narcissism thing, yet again I will say TDK is not going away from that. Burton in B89 amplified Joker's narcissistic ways, way more then he should have, because the Joker yes is narcissistic but I never saw it as a key component to the character.

I still think many don't understand narcissism, first it means love for one self. That you obsess over yourself. That does not mean you have to be pretty, or handsome, or well dressed to become narcissistic there are trashy strippers, or Britney Spears that believes they are the hottest stuff, when they look like crap. Narcissism has nothing to do with being dressed nicely. Its just where one thinks he/she is great, and loves themselves.

TDK has not destroyed this aspect, it may not be in the center, but we have no idea what will happen or not. But if it is true that he "puts" smiles on people's faces that shows he is narcissistic that he loves his own look so much, he forces it onto others. "Lets put a smile on that face!!!"

The Joker is a sociopath so he will not care for social norms, such as dressing nice, and clean makes you beautiful. He breaks norms left and right. So I don't see this Joker breaking any rules on how he can be. If he loves himself and his own look, which I'm sure he does in TDK, that he is narcissistic. He apparently has a look he likes, and he keeps putting makeup on to keep that specified look.

 

[StorminNorman]

I know that I've argued this with you in the past to some extent, and maybe we agree, but I don't see Harvey as that wholly perfect figure you do, otherwise he wouldn't be tragic to me. Harvey needs to have some sort of personal issues, and whether they be in his past or related to the mob case it doesn't matter, but a lot has to be done to him before the scarring for him to snap when it occurs.

You can have personal issues, as I said - I accept Harvey having a tragic past with an abusive father creating great mental anguish for Harvey and probably creating this secondary personality. I just don't want there to be any very telling signs about it. Adult Harvey should be a stable man that has felt and dealt with his past - until his world falls apart and they ooze out of the cracks.

So whether its his dad abusing him as a kid (too cliched for my liking), whether its him simply trying to carry far too much responsibility (an aspect thats pretty much necessary in my humble opinion), whether its a love interest (Rachel) dying (something I become more and more convinced of with each passing week, and I think is perfect for the plot) there need to be something that eats away at Harvey, and there needs to be that vengeful side inside him that comes out. I am not saying that Harvey needs to have major anger issues, or a schizophrenic past (I'm not really in favour of that) but I do think that Harvey needs to start to break down well before the acid attack, for believability's sake, and because watching a man slowly dwindle away as he tries to fight something he can't is much more tragic than a white knight going balls out nuts from disfiguration.

There's a major possibility I'm agreeing with you entirely here, in which case, hooray for saying my opinion anyways.

I agree that he has to be visually shown to be stressed. His final case should take every bit out of him. Free time gone, stress pours onto his shoulder. He sacrifices so much of himself (and we can see this) to make this case work.

And then it falls apart.

Thats what I want to see.

 

[The Mighty Wind]

As for the narcissism thing, yet again I will say TDK is not going away from that. Burton in B89 amplified Joker's narcissistic ways, way more then he should have, because the Joker yes is narcissistic but I never saw it as a key component to the character.

I still think many don't understand narcissism, first it means love for one self. That you obsess over yourself. That does not mean you have to be pretty, or handsome, or well dressed to become narcissistic there are trashy strippers, or Britney Spears that believes they are the hottest stuff, when they look like crap. Narcissism has nothing to do with being dressed nicely. Its just where one thinks he/she is great, and loves themselves.

TDK has not destroyed this aspect, it may not be in the center, but we have no idea what will happen or not. But if it is true that he "puts" smiles on people's faces that shows he is narcissistic that he loves his own look so much, he forces it onto others. "Lets put a smile on that face!!!"

The Joker is a sociopath so he will not care for social norms, such as dressing nice, and clean makes you beautiful. He breaks norms left and right. So I don't see this Joker breaking any rules on how he can be. If he loves himself and his own look, which I'm sure he does in TDK, that he is narcissistic. He apparently has a look he likes, and he keeps putting makeup on to keep that specified look.

I don't just mean in his dress. The quote from the fashion designer was that this Joker "does not care about himself" and they tried to extend that look to his dress. Joker's narcissism ranks pretty low on my list of wants for a movie Joker, but I'm a little disappointed they shied away from that aspect of the character from what I can tell.

 

[Anita18]

As for the narcissism thing, yet again I will say TDK is not going away from that. Burton in B89 amplified Joker's narcissistic ways, way more then he should have, because the Joker yes is narcissistic but I never saw it as a key component to the character.

I still think many don't understand narcissism, first it means love for one self. That you obsess over yourself. That does not mean you have to be pretty, or handsome, or well dressed to become narcissistic there are trashy strippers, or Britney Spears that believes they are the hottest stuff, when they look like crap. Narcissism has nothing to do with being dressed nicely. Its just where one thinks he/she is great, and loves themselves.

TDK has not destroyed this aspect, it may not be in the center, but we have no idea what will happen or not. But if it is true that he "puts" smiles on people's faces that shows he is narcissistic that he loves his own look so much, he forces it onto others. "Lets put a smile on that face!!!"

The Joker is a sociopath so he will not care for social norms, such as dressing nice, and clean makes you beautiful. He breaks norms left and right. So I don't see this Joker breaking any rules on how he can be. If he loves himself and his own look, which I'm sure he does in TDK, that he is narcissistic. He apparently has a look he likes, and he keeps putting makeup on to keep that specified look.

You can have personal issues, as I said - I accept Harvey having a tragic past with an abusive father creating great mental anguish for Harvey and probably creating this secondary personality. I just don't want there to be any very telling signs about it. Adult Harvey should be a stable man that has felt and dealt with his past - until his world falls apart and they ooze out of the cracks.



I agree that he has to be visually shown to be stressed. His final case should take every bit out of him. Free time gone, stress pours onto his shoulder. He sacrifices so much of himself (and we can see this) to make this case work.

And then it falls apart.

Thats what I want to see.

Both these posts

 

[-Crusher-]

indeed, this thread has some wonderful points.

 

[CaptainClown]

haven't read all of it; but I bet some of it is very interesting

 

[-Crusher-]

it is indeedy.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Not really. There are plenty of reason's for an obsession with duality, and really it takes a bigger stretch to reason that his father is the cause for duality than many other factors.

1. The scarring to begin with has a major impact on Harvey's persona, it splits his face, and it splits his mind.

I'd disagree. To a person who had no prior obsession with Duality, then the scarring could mean anything to them. Some might think that part of their face was ruined, and some might think they're whole face was hideous because of that one scar. Harvey only jumped right to the "two" part of it because he already had a preference towards that number.

2. Justice vs. Vengeance, something that begins to haunt Harvey before the scarring, how can he stop the violence, does he try to

I really don't buy the coin flipping as a seed for duality either, because there was no duality to it. Yes Harvey thought there was, but if he got beaten night after night, if he had it revealed that there never was a choice between the two, that completely deconstructs the very idea of duality within him.

I don't think it discounts the idea of duality within him. He was a child at the time, he probably didn't realize it was a two headed coin until it was much older, and by the time he realized that, his morbid attraction to duality had already begun to form in his mind.

The only thing that the abuse then establishes is Harvey's obsession with the coin, and the emotional scarring his father laid into him. If Harvey were to have the beatings fully imprinted within him, upon breaking he would choose violence every time.

I don't understand this part. "Upon breaking he would choose violence every time." That doesn't make sense. Just because he was beaten it does not mean that he would choose violence every time he flipped, and he only broke once, and that resulted in two-face.

Child abuse has led to the formation of multiple personalities however, that's been documented. So that again also fits Harvey's profile. Except in his case, his multiple personality hadn't fully formed because, as StorminNorman said, by the time he's the DA, he had long since dealt with his inner demons, and had stomped out the seeds that would have let his multiple personality to flourish.

I don't buy it, and I see it as entirely unnecessary. It works on some levels but there is enough material to establish Harvey without it that it becomes kind of redundant.

I disagree, but I suppose it comes down to personal preference. I like the idea that he was abused as a child, otherwise it makes him seem kind of weak. I mean, yes, he had lots of horrible things happen to him before the Acid incident, but lots of real life D.A's have things like that happen to them in real life, and they don't crack and go nuts.

It makes me feel a little more for Harvey when I learn that, on top of all the crappy stuff that happens to him as a DA, he also had a crappy childhood.

 

[Anita18]

I'd disagree. To a person who had no prior obsession with Duality, then the scarring could mean anything to them. Some might think that part of their face was ruined, and some might think they're whole face was hideous because of that one scar. Harvey only jumped right to the "two" part of it because he already had a preference towards that number.

Child abuse has led to the formation of multiple personalities however, that's been documented. So that again also fits Harvey's profile. Except in his case, his multiple personality hadn't fully formed because, as StorminNorman said, by the time he's the DA, he had long since dealt with his inner demons, and had stomped out the seeds that would have let his multiple personality to flourish.

I agree with your first point, but recovery from chronic trauma (especially at a young age) never finishes. So he might THINK he's got it under control, but then something else can bring it all back.

 

[StylishHokie21]

So is the TLH a good read? I was looking for some Batman and Spider-Man comics recently, so I was just wondering.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I agree with your first point, but recovery from chronic trauma (especially at a young age) never finishes. So he might THINK he's got it under control, but then something else can bring it all back.

Well that's what I meant to say. When I said had it under control, I mean that he wasn't disturbed enough yet to let his second personality take hold, or even be aware of it yet.