The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

So is the TLH a good read? I was looking for some Batman and Spider-Man comics recently, so I was just wondering.
YES. DO IT NOW.

It really chronicles the downfall of Harvey Dent. I thought the other villains involved were rather shortchanged (Catwomen gets a good run though), but the way that the book developed the relationship between Dent, Gordon, and Batman makes up for it in spades.
 
Everything that I have been thinking for the past few months.

I don't think I'm as against makeup as a lot on here are, but it still bothers me a bit (just as it bothers me that this Joker is not the full narcissist in nature we know and love). The rationalization above however is what keeps me tied to this character, why I think it works, I why I still hold a lot of faith in TDK's Joker. I think the problem for a lot of us is that we expect 100% comic accuracy and in most cases, I apologize, we're idiots for doing so. Comic book pages do not work on the screen, they just don't, there is a major difference between drawings and film, in both their look and how they are absorbed by their audience. It does kind of suck that certain elements which we love don't translate into certain situations the way that we want them to, but I think maybe if we took a step back we'd save ourselves a lot of frustration.

Why cant they work?? its not like god doesnt let it happen... of course it could work, if they get it right...
dont get me wrong I love this Joker and it looks like this Movie version is better than the green goblin's.... im not against the make up thing anymore.. but I still think that they should have made him perma-white, its not the fact that they both think they look like a clown..
the fact it
the old joker is ALWAYS the joker...he cant take off his ^mask^..cuz thats the way he is...
this new joker can become a normal persons anytimes he wants cuz of the make up thing...
well I dont think it really matters...this joker is going to kick ass anyways... now two face...we'll have to SEE first
 
Why cant they work?? its not like god doesnt let it happen... of course it could work, if they get it right...
dont get me wrong I love this Joker and it looks like this Movie version is better than the green goblin's.... im not against the make up thing anymore.. but I still think that they should have made him perma-white, its not the fact that they both think they look like a clown..
the fact it
the old joker is ALWAYS the joker...he cant take off his ^mask^..cuz thats the way he is...
this new joker can become a normal persons anytimes he wants cuz of the make up thing...
well I dont think it really matters...this joker is going to kick ass anyways... now two face...we'll have to SEE first

No, this Joker can't 'become a normal person' anytime he likes. There's more to it than that. Do you think Hitler could've simply become a normal person on a whim? Whenever he wanted to? He's not Batman. He's not some dude putting on a show for everyone to try to get out of a guilty plea or anything. There's something seriously effed up with the guy's mind. This Joker doesn't just go home at the end of the day, rub his make up off, and become hidden in the nightlife of Gotham. He's a genuine freak, whereas Batman has to work for it. Perhaps Batman is Jealous.
 
YES. DO IT NOW.

It really chronicles the downfall of Harvey Dent. I thought the other villains involved were rather shortchanged (Catwomen gets a good run though), but the way that the book developed the relationship between Dent, Gordon, and Batman makes up for it in spades.


Agreed! Also if you really like it get Dark Victory icecsm16. It's the follow up.
 
The Dark Victory is really good.. I recommend it.
 
i agree. i feel dent won't be seen as even slightly crazy until the last 10 minutes are so. something like begins where the VERY last seen is like a slight preview of two-face coming out of the shadows, then the credits.

I doubt it. As I said in some other thread, that's Brett Ratner territory. I think we'll be seeing quite a bit of Two-Face in this film - him dealing out his vigilante "justice".
 
i cant seem to find TLH anywhere. but i just bought hush and hush returns, and im halfway through another novel aswell, so i have time to look.
 
I haven't read it - but I have heard nothing but horrible things.

Which makes me sad, since I love Hush.
 
No, this Joker can't 'become a normal person' anytime he likes. There's more to it than that. Do you think Hitler could've simply become a normal person on a whim? Whenever he wanted to? He's not Batman. He's not some dude putting on a show for everyone to try to get out of a guilty plea or anything. There's something seriously effed up with the guy's mind. This Joker doesn't just go home at the end of the day, rub his make up off, and become hidden in the nightlife of Gotham. He's a genuine freak, whereas Batman has to work for it. Perhaps Batman is Jealous.
True, he is a freak, and, true, the makeup clearly can work. But, don't you think that permawhite would only serve to cement the fact that he is a true freak?

With the makeup, he's a freak on the inside, sure, but, on the outside, he's not that different from you or me. It's only half there. So, he must add the clown imagery himself. But, just as he puts it on, it could be taken away. In removing that, you've removed part of him.

Permawhite makes that impossible. It can't be removed. He's all Joker, all the time. Inside and out. Without his makeup, it would be the equivalent of Batman being's identity being revealed to the criminals of Gotham. Sure, he's still capable of kicking their asses. But the effect of the bat is gone.

And, this is just personal opinion, but I find permawhite to fit the Joker better as a deformity than the bubbly mouth scars. It's something really out there, to the point where it's almost unbelievable. It defies logic, just like the Joker should.

It's also visually jarring. The chalk white flesh all over the body, it's just very bizarre to look at.

Plus, symbolically, it represents everything that the Joker is: on one hand, it gives him the appearance of a clown, and, on the other, the visage of a corpse or a ghost. It represents things both innocent, and at the same time, morbid...just like the Joker.
 
i cant seem to find TLH anywhere. but i just bought hush and hush returns, and im halfway through another novel aswell, so i have time to look.

amazon.ca friend :up:
 
True, he is a freak, and, true, the makeup clearly can work. But, don't you think that permawhite would only serve to cement the fact that he is a true freak?

With the makeup, he's a freak on the inside, sure, but, on the outside, he's not that different from you or me. It's only half there. So, he must add the clown imagery himself. But, just as he puts it on, it could be taken away. In removing that, you've removed part of him.

Permawhite makes that impossible. It can't be removed. He's all Joker, all the time. Inside and out. Without his makeup, it would be the equivalent of Batman being's identity being revealed to the criminals of Gotham. Sure, he's still capable of kicking their asses. But the effect of the bat is gone.

And, this is just personal opinion, but I find permawhite to fit the Joker better as a deformity than the bubbly mouth scars. It's something really out there, to the point where it's almost unbelievable. It defies logic, just like the Joker should.

It's also visually jarring. The chalk white flesh all over the body, it's just very bizarre to look at.

Plus, symbolically, it represents everything that the Joker is: on one hand, it gives him the appearance of a clown, and, on the other, the visage of a corpse or a ghost. It represents things both innocent, and at the same time, morbid...just like the Joker.

Perma-white does not fit in with Nolan's Batman universe.

Dear god, why does everybody forget this scene?


Rachel Dawes: I never stopped thinking about you... about us... when I heard you were back, I started to hope...
[Rachel kisses Bruce]
Rachel Dawes: That was before I found out about the mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] *This* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe one day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.


I think I will leave it at that.

On to two face, IMO the father being responsible for the coin makes the whole Two-Face thing more interesting.

I mean think about it, its a two headed coin. Tales and you get beaten. I think this describes Dent's life and even Gotham City to an extent. There is no choice to do good, because everything is so corrupted things always go bad.

Harvey never having a choice, scars one side of the coin. In his insanity he gives himself choice. It is of course a random choice, but any choice would be better than the linear hell hole that is reality.

To me I find that more interesting.
 
No, this Joker can't 'become a normal person' anytime he likes. There's more to it than that. Do you think Hitler could've simply become a normal person on a whim? Whenever he wanted to? He's not Batman. He's not some dude putting on a show for everyone to try to get out of a guilty plea or anything. There's something seriously effed up with the guy's mind. This Joker doesn't just go home at the end of the day, rub his make up off, and become hidden in the nightlife of Gotham. He's a genuine freak, whereas Batman has to work for it. Perhaps Batman is Jealous.

Not to stay off topic, but this is exactly why the makeup works better for me, because there is no reason for him to be like this, besides the fact that he's deeply disturbed. Like I said in my other posts, I can understand, kinda, if a guy goes crazy after being dunked in chemicals and he looks that way. On the other hand someone who willingly goes around like that signals to me, someone who a) is very crazy and b) someone who's been very crazy. This isn't no after-effect from an accident, this guys been nuts the whole time, his scars just give him a creative way to dress up and make his mark finally. IMO, that person is a helluva lot more insane, and dangerous. It's what makes real life serial killers so damn scary, usually there are no reasons behind what they do, alot of them are just outta their mind :hoboj:
 
The guy's a wanker, maybe the mob got sick of him one day and decided to give him a Chelsea grin. Might explain why he would rob a mob bank, and hold them ransom(?), just to yank their chain.
 
Well, it certainly sounds like Harvey has the Big Bad Harv thing going on. Perhaps this thread was indeed created too soon.

I didn't get that at all :huh:. Two-Face has always been conflicted between his two halves. In Dark Victory at one point they actually have a spat. Sounds like they've found a neat new way to visually incoporate it into the character design.
 
I didn't get that at all :huh:. Two-Face has always been conflicted between his two halves. In Dark Victory at one point they actually have a spat. Sounds like they've found a neat new way to visually incoporate it into the character design.

I'm talking about the fact that the whole deal is happening before he becomes TWo-Face. Which goes more of the TAS route than the TLH (I think).
 
I'm talking about the fact that the whole deal is happening before he becomes TWo-Face. Which goes more of the TAS route than the TLH (I think).

I'm confused. The article states this is after his Two-Face transformation.

Basically, Nolan shot complementary takes of Eckhart in Two-Face makeup so he could visually represent the duality of Dent in a less cartoony fashion.

so it is only after that event that the filmakers use the motion capture to express the two sides
 
I'm confused. The article states this is after his Two-Face transformation.
That's what I got out of it too.

The article explicitly states Nolan got complementary takes with Eckhart in Two-Face makeup. Why would Nolan spoil the image of the transformation in the film before Harvey actually gets the acid on him?

Now it would be interesting if it is as you say, but I think we'd need additional context before calling it more TAS than TLH. If he's depicted like that right from the get-go without any provocation then yeah, it's more like Big Bad Harv. But if the use of the complementary takes increases during the movie as Harvey's world falls apart, it would be more along the lines of TLH.

Still, I find that tidbit a really fascinating angle on shooting Harvey's character. Nolan's certainly got his work cut out for him in editing. And the comment about the Joker possibly a problem for ratings certainly means we'll get a dark Joker. :hehe:
 
Goyer always said TLH was the "pre-eminent influence", his world falls apart. One minute DA with a pretty girlfriend, public profile, next a burn victim.
 
Well, you're right people, I read pre-Two Face somewhere and got the whole thing wrong.
 
Well, you're right people, I read pre-Two Face somewhere and got the whole thing wrong.

So they shoot a scene with good Harv in charge, then another with Bad Harv? So they can choose which one will be put in a scene?
 

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