The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[Super_Ludacris]

Quite the love letter this thread.

 

[cjblair]

"There was movement at the station for the word had passed around..."

Banjo Patterson, The Man From Snowy River

http://www.firstshowing.net/2008/03...two-face-and-two-performances-in-dark-knight/

Sorry if repost.

 

[Drummerdude7]

can someone please post the article? It won't work on my browser =(

 

[nickyg641]

Perma-white does not fit in with Nolan's Batman universe.

Dear god, why does everybody forget this scene?


Rachel Dawes: I never stopped thinking about you... about us... when I heard you were back, I started to hope...
[Rachel kisses Bruce]
Rachel Dawes: That was before I found out about the mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] *This* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe one day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.


I think I will leave it at that.

On to two face, IMO the father being responsible for the coin makes the whole Two-Face thing more interesting.

I mean think about it, its a two headed coin. Tales and you get beaten. I think this describes Dent's life and even Gotham City to an extent. There is no choice to do good, because everything is so corrupted things always go bad.

Harvey never having a choice, scars one side of the coin. In his insanity he gives himself choice. It is of course a random choice, but any choice would be better than the linear hell hole that is reality.

To me I find that more interesting.

Except, here's the problem: Bruce Wayne has two different parts to his person. He is both Batman and Bruce Wayne, and the audience knows it. Whether or not Bruce Wayne is metaphorically "his mask", it doesn't matter. The Joker doesn't have a mask. He's the Joker all the time, and his visage is just as much a part of it as his personality.

Not to stay off topic, but this is exactly why the makeup works better for me, because there is no reason for him to be like this, besides the fact that he's deeply disturbed. Like I said in my other posts, I can understand, kinda, if a guy goes crazy after being dunked in chemicals and he looks that way. On the other hand someone who willingly goes around like that signals to me, someone who a) is very crazy and b) someone who's been very crazy. This isn't no after-effect from an accident, this guys been nuts the whole time, his scars just give him a creative way to dress up and make his mark finally. IMO, that person is a helluva lot more insane, and dangerous. It's what makes real life serial killers so damn scary, usually there are no reasons behind what they do, alot of them are just outta their mind

Actually, most serial killers were proven to have had abusive childhoods, and thus develop a feelings of inferiority. It's usually a compensation thing.

But the Joker is different. He shouldn't be like real serial killers. Real serial killers can be profiled and, to an extent, figured out. The Joker cannot. He defies logic. It was not the chemical bath or his appearance that makes him insane, that just provides his clown visage.

 

[Anita18]

Actually, most serial killers were proven to have had abusive childhoods, and thus develop a feelings of inferiority. It's usually a compensation thing.

But the Joker is different. He shouldn't be like real serial killers. Real serial killers can be profiled and, to an extent, figured out. The Joker cannot. He defies logic. It was not the chemical bath or his appearance that makes him insane, that just provides his clown visage.

There's always Jeffrey Dahmer. The only really "bad" thing that happened to him was that he moved between states in his childhood and could never fit in. Not that he wanted to, of course. Otherwise he just seemed to be simply messed up.

 

[Sidepocket]

Except, here's the problem: Bruce Wayne has two different parts to his person. He is both Batman and Bruce Wayne, and the audience knows it. Whether or not Bruce Wayne is metaphorically "his mask", it doesn't matter. The Joker doesn't have a mask. He's the Joker all the time, and his visage is just as much a part of it as his personality.


Actually, most serial killers were proven to have had abusive childhoods, and thus develop a feelings of inferiority. It's usually a compensation thing.

But the Joker is different. He shouldn't be like real serial killers. Real serial killers can be profiled and, to an extent, figured out. The Joker cannot. He defies logic. It was not the chemical bath or his appearance that makes him insane, that just provides his clown visage.

Oh god, just when you think people can be stupid.



See here is the thing, I do not want to write a ****ing essay on this whole thing, yet on the other hand everyone seems to be as dumb as a brick here so let me put it this way.

Superman is a show, Clark Kent is superman.

Bruce Wayne is a show, Batman is Bruce Wayne.

Batman is a state of mind.

Batman never stops being Batman. When he is Bruce, he is Batman pretending to be Bruce. Otherwise he is Batman 2/47. Hence the "Mask". The young happy Bruce died when his parents did, he is Batman ever since.

Look at it this way:

You take away Gacy's make up does that mean Gacy is not a killer?

Of course not, he was a homicide maniac both with it on and with out.

Joker is always Joker, no matter what he looks like.

As long as he is ****ed in the head the way he is, he is always the Joker.

In short, they made it perma-clown from the inside and not the outside.

You do not need to spoon feed people all the time which is something I like about Noland's movies, the bad guys are not always running around wearing black and have a giant sign on them that says "I AM EVIL" for the MTV Generation.

Evil is internal, evil is a state of mind.

Ok, that is enough.

Oh and yes you can profile the Joker, that is how the hell you write for him. Duh! Defying normal social norms is PART of his criminal profile Magnum P.I.

Finally on the note why the Joker steals money from the mob, last script review I heard said that this is how he amasses a criminal army. He steals all the Mobs money and says "Give me men to fight Batman, if you don't, I burn it all."

Now lets get back to that wonderful scared man and leave Joker in his own threads...



P.S. Why is there no Two-Face Emotecon?

 

[Bat-Gasm]

Harvey Two-Face

Being looked at under fear toxin

That'd be sick.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Oh god, just when you think people can be stupid.



See here is the thing, I do not want to write a ****ing essay on this whole thing, yet on the other hand everyone seems to be as dumb as a brick here so let me put it this way.

Superman is a show, Clark Kent is superman.

Bruce Wayne is a show, Batman is Bruce Wayne.

Batman is a state of mind.

I disagree. The playboy Bruce Wayne, yes that's a show. But I also think to an extent Batman is also a bit of a mask. The real man, the real Bruce Wayne, is I think the man Bruce is when he's surrounded by people who know his secret. He's not as distant and harsh as Batman, and he's nowhere near the buffoon he pretends to be in public.

He retains some of the kindness of Bruce Wayne, but you can still tell he's a driven man that wants to protect his city.

I don't buy that he's all Batman. Parts of Batman are show that he's adopted to keep his urban legend status. That's not his "real" self. Batman contains parts of his real self but not all of it. His real self is somewhere in the middle.

At least that's how I see it.
Batman never stops being Batman. When he is Bruce, he is Batman pretending to be Bruce. Otherwise he is Batman 2/47. Hence the "Mask". The young happy Bruce died when his parents did, he is Batman ever since.

Look at it this way:

You take away Gacy's make up does that mean Gacy is not a killer?

Of course not, he was a homicide maniac both with it on and with out.

Joker is always Joker, no matter what he looks like.

I agree with this to a point. I think the Joker would have ended up the way he was now with or without the chemical bleeching. I don't care how bad you look or how hard your life was before that, it takes more then disfigurement to make a man go that crazy.

I do not think that Permawhite wouldn't fit in Nolan's world. I (and this is my opinion, since I can't ask him) that Nolan choose to have the Joker where makeup purely for artistic reasons. Permawhite easily fits in with his more grounded stories.

Now lets get back to that wonderful scared man and leave Joker in his own threads...


P.S. Why is there no Two-Face Emotecon?

Seriously, we do need a Two-Face Emotecon!

Back to Two face though, one thing I did like about TAS was the way Batman beat him in his first appearance (throwing the coins in the air when he flipped his). It's too bad that BF did that, because I thought that was a sweet way to beat Two-Face. It also showed how messed up he was. He couldn't even make a decision without his coin.

 

[Matchbox]

I disagree. The playboy Bruce Wayne, yes that's a show. But I also think to an extent Batman is also a bit of a mask. The real man, the real Bruce Wayne, is I think the man Bruce is when he's surrounded by people who know his secret. He's not as distant and harsh as Batman, and he's nowhere near the buffoon he pretends to be in public.

He retains some of the kindness of Bruce Wayne, but you can still tell he's a driven man that wants to protect his city.

I don't buy that he's all Batman. Parts of Batman are show that he's adopted to keep his urban legend status. That's not his "real" self. Batman contains parts of his real self but not all of it. His real self is somewhere in the middle.

I agree with that. That's how I feel about the subject as well.

 

[Simon Dark]

Even though TAS didn't do Two-Face the best justice, I still loved him in that...especially the very last episode of the series. Judgment Day anyone? t:

 

[Mr. Socko]

Look at it this way:

You take away Gacy's make up does that mean Gacy is not a killer?

Of course not, he was a homicide maniac both with it on and with out.

Joker is always Joker, no matter what he looks like.

Terrible comparison that makes no sense. Gacy wasn't theatrical as a killer, he never killed anyone dressed as Pogo the clown. It was simply a part time job he took to make cash. You ask if Gacy is no longer a killer when you take away his makeup, but his makeup never played any part in his character. It was just a job he took for what? A couple months for a quick buck.

Completely different from the Joker who is always theatrical, The Joker IS the clown appearance. I don't imagine Joker would even kill without makeup on. I am fine with Joker applying makeup but I understand exactly where Nicky is coming from. If Joker decides to also kill in this movie not dressed as a clown with makeup on and such(with the exception of being in disguise) then that alone downplays the aspect and importance of Joker's visage as well renders him 'dressed as a clown' rather useless if he goes around also killing without the makeup on. It would be like Bruce Wayne going out to fight crime without the cape and cowl.

 

[Doc Samson]

Except, here's the problem: Bruce Wayne has two different parts to his person. He is both Batman and Bruce Wayne, and the audience knows it. Whether or not Bruce Wayne is metaphorically "his mask", it doesn't matter. The Joker doesn't have a mask. He's the Joker all the time, and his visage is just as much a part of it as his personality.


Actually, most serial killers were proven to have had abusive childhoods, and thus develop a feelings of inferiority. It's usually a compensation thing.

But the Joker is different. He shouldn't be like real serial killers. Real serial killers can be profiled and, to an extent, figured out. The Joker cannot. He defies logic. It was not the chemical bath or his appearance that makes him insane, that just provides his clown visage.

Well, that was exactly my point. The costume designer specifically said they wanted his clothing to appear like he's been wearing this type of stuff the whole time. Who knows, he very well may have killed people without his makeup on, that doesn't make him any less the Joker in my mind. Point being, if you were made to look like a clown in real life, you very well may go crazy, if you go around painting your face up and killing people, your absolutely insane, and thats what they're going for, absolutely insane. It's the difference between Two-Face and The Joker, Two-Face has a redeeming quality in the fact that he was a good natured man, and The Joker in the CB may have been as well, this version isn't in the slightest, and never was, with or without any kind of accident...

 

[Sidepocket]

Well, that was exactly my point. The costume designer specifically said they wanted his clothing to appear like he's been wearing this type of stuff the whole time. Who knows, he very well may have killed people without his makeup on, that doesn't make him any less the Joker in my mind. Point being, if you were made to look like a clown in real life, you very well may go crazy, if you go around painting your face up and killing people, your absolutely insane, and thats what they're going for, absolutely insane. It's the difference between Two-Face and The Joker, Two-Face has a redeeming quality in the fact that he was a good natured man, and The Joker in the CB may have been as well, this version isn't in the slightest, and never was, with or without any kind of accident...

Bingo.

Back on Two-Face, they really need to do that shot with all three of them like in "The Long Halloween." It's too good not to use! t:

 

[abcdefz]

I've post this in the Harvey Dent thread too.

It's a good read..and a spoilerishish...

http://chud.com/articles/articles/13931/1/THE-TWO-PERFORMANCES-OF-TWO-FACE/Page1.html

-- any idea if this has been substantiated anywhere?

Also -- what are they going to do with the vocal performance? I can't imagine somehow blending the vocal takes. That'd be an interesting ADR work.

Something smells funny about this story.

 

[Octoberist]

-- any idea if this has been substantiated anywhere?

Also -- what are they going to do with the vocal performance? I can't imagine somehow blending the vocal takes. That'd be an interesting ADR work.

Something smells funny about this story.

CHUD never has rumors or gossip. It's more of an editorial site. And when they do have a scoop, it's legit. They had scoops on Wolverine and they became true (Deadpool, Sabertooth castings).

 

[abcdefz]

CHUD never has rumors or gossip. It's more of an editorial site. And when they do have a scoop, it's legit. They had scoops on Wolverine and they became true (Deadpool, Sabertooth castings).

Interesting.

I'd read somewhere that Eckhart had some motion capture dots going on, but I figured that was for the CGI on his face.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Im glad Nolan likes to shoot his films with the smallest amount of CGI possible to make it have a more real feel to it. A Two-Face with a lot of CGI would look awful.

 

[abcdefz]

I can't even imagine how disciplined Eckhart and whoever was on continuity would have to be about making sure he hit his marks, etc. But I guess if a half dozen Buster Keatons can play in an orchestra, these guys can pull this off...

 

[Anita18]

-- any idea if this has been substantiated anywhere?

Also -- what are they going to do with the vocal performance? I can't imagine somehow blending the vocal takes. That'd be an interesting ADR work.

Something smells funny about this story.

Not exactly fishy, but vague. I bet they're not quite sure how it's logistically going to work. When TDK comes out, I think it'll have elements of what this article claims, and then something else.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

CHUD never has rumors or gossip. It's more of an editorial site. And when they do have a scoop, it's legit. They had scoops on Wolverine and they became true (Deadpool, Sabertooth castings).

Yeah CHUD is usually legit

 

[abcdefz]

Not exactly fishy, but vague. I bet they're not quite sure how it's logistically going to work.

I dunno. I have a feeling it's a tidbit that got leaked only if they'd confirmed that it worked. Nolan's probably far enough along in the editing now that Warners has seen footage of this stuff.

Maybe.

 

[strider]

I am sure by now most of you have seen the toy rendering of Two Face, giving us a clear indication of what his character will look like in the movie. Less of you have probably read the Aaron Eckhart Q&A, which you should sense it may be the best bit of news to come out of this movie in a very long while. This simply little question and answer segment gives us more information on Harvey Dent than, probably, all other reports combined.

There will be spoilers - and I do so hope that won't be a problem given the title of this forum.

Now I had many arguments in the past with a variety of people arguing about which of two variations of Harvey's Origin we would get, and what we should get. When I read The Long Halloween I feel in love with the character of Harvey Dent. He instantly became one of my most favorite characters in the entire Batman Mythos. He was compellingly tragic. I loved the idea of Gotham's greatest hero becoming torn apart piece by piece by the very city he was trying to save - and that is exactly the story The Long Halloween tells. It depicts a District Attorney who is not only a great guy, an honest guy, a trustworthy guy - but willing to do what needs to be done while staying in the law. In the early years of Gotham City - one could argue it was Harvey Dent, not Batman, who was Gotham's true savior.

On the other hand we had the origin told by Timm/Dini in Batman:TAS. While the show was incredible - IMO the way they handled Harvey Dent was a disgrace. I don't want to get too caught up on that tirade now (I will if one would like to argue that point), but I found that it cheapened the character of Harvey Dent. It took away a lot of the brilliance of his story. It turned Harvey Dent: Hero into Harvey Dent: Time Bomb.

It was this difference in approaches that had me (a bit) worried about The Dark Knight. Batman Begins gave me my ideal big screen Batman, my ideal big screen James Gordon - I wanted the hat trick.

I have been keeping tabs on the various interviews with Aaron Eckhart, trying to pick away for nuggets to let me shape what his character will be. This last one, I believe, finally gave a clear indication of the way Nolan is going.

While I wont copy and paste the entire interview here are some of my very snips:



[/color][/font]Eckhart also refers to Harvey at one point as a Vigilante.

These descriptions do not fit the version of Two Face depicted in the Animated Series, though this sounds like an exact description of TLH Two Face.

This should put to rest the ridiculous rumors of Harvey Dent working for the mob, as well as the idea that we will see Harvey Dent as a many with great anger and darkness BEFORE his scaring.

Since I do bring up his scaring, it is important to note that Nolan got that right too. I should also note that just as Harvey Dent sounds like TLH in character - he also looks a good bit like Tim Sale's Two Face in look too. Here - perhaps for the first time - Nolan has given us a character that is not only perfect internally, but externally.

I only wish he would of done the same for the Joker.

You forgot to add "IMO." If you are referring to a non-perma white Joker. Good post by the way in regards to Dent. Having yet seen the movie but still basing opinions on wether or not characters are "done correctly" based on YOUR favorite comic stories is just that...Opinions. Good read.

 

[Nightwing1977]

Im glad Nolan likes to shoot his films with the smallest amount of CGI possible to make it have a more real feel to it. A Two-Face with a lot of CGI would look awful.

Me too. I prefer movies use CGI when practical stuff can't work. CGI is only a need if you can't get certain thing to work in real life.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Me too. I prefer movies use CGI when practical stuff can't work.

If only George Lucas had that mentality.

 

[bkey]

If only George Lucas had that mentality.

Good gosh.. the Prequels were CGI overkill. If he actually spent as much time on directing and writing decent dialogue as he did on CGI those movies would have been 1000x better.