The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[StorminNorman]

I am sure by now most of you have seen the toy rendering of Two Face, giving us a clear indication of what his character will look like in the movie. Less of you have probably read the Aaron Eckhart Q&A, which you should sense it may be the best bit of news to come out of this movie in a very long while. This simply little question and answer segment gives us more information on Harvey Dent than, probably, all other reports combined.

There will be spoilers - and I do so hope that won't be a problem given the title of this forum.

Now I had many arguments in the past with a variety of people arguing about which of two variations of Harvey's Origin we would get, and what we should get. When I read The Long Halloween I feel in love with the character of Harvey Dent. He instantly became one of my most favorite characters in the entire Batman Mythos. He was compellingly tragic. I loved the idea of Gotham's greatest hero becoming torn apart piece by piece by the very city he was trying to save - and that is exactly the story The Long Halloween tells. It depicts a District Attorney who is not only a great guy, an honest guy, a trustworthy guy - but willing to do what needs to be done while staying in the law. In the early years of Gotham City - one could argue it was Harvey Dent, not Batman, who was Gotham's true savior.

On the other hand we had the origin told by Timm/Dini in Batman:TAS. While the show was incredible - IMO the way they handled Harvey Dent was a disgrace. I don't want to get too caught up on that tirade now (I will if one would like to argue that point), but I found that it cheapened the character of Harvey Dent. It took away a lot of the brilliance of his story. It turned Harvey Dent: Hero into Harvey Dent: Time Bomb.

It was this difference in approaches that had me (a bit) worried about The Dark Knight. Batman Begins gave me my ideal big screen Batman, my ideal big screen James Gordon - I wanted the hat trick.

I have been keeping tabs on the various interviews with Aaron Eckhart, trying to pick away for nuggets to let me shape what his character will be. This last one, I believe, finally gave a clear indication of the way Nolan is going.

While I wont copy and paste the entire interview here are some of my very snips:

Harvey is a very good guy in the comic books. He’s judicious. He cares. He’s passionate about what he loves and then he turns into this character. So you will see that in this film.

I think that it’s interesting about human behavior that under certain circumstances, in one minute you can believe in one thing, and then the world can change and you believe in another thing. I think that Harvey is not such a bad person.

It’s interesting to show that there are reasons for his behavior.

I think that Harvey Two-Face has a code...

It’s the code of saying, “How can I justify this? In what circumstances would I go kill someone?”

Eckhart also refers to Harvey at one point as a Vigilante.

These descriptions do not fit the version of Two Face depicted in the Animated Series, though this sounds like an exact description of TLH Two Face.

This should put to rest the ridiculous rumors of Harvey Dent working for the mob, as well as the idea that we will see Harvey Dent as a many with great anger and darkness BEFORE his scaring.

Since I do bring up his scaring, it is important to note that Nolan got that right too. I should also note that just as Harvey Dent sounds like TLH in character - he also looks a good bit like Tim Sale's Two Face in look too. Here - perhaps for the first time - Nolan has given us a character that is not only perfect internally, but externally.

I only wish he would of done the same for the Joker.

 

[Nightmare]

Id have to see a picture of how two face looks first.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

So far I agree with most of this.

 

[ronny]

Wait, but wasn't Harvey messed up before his little acid trip? I mean, he seemed to spend a lot of time in the cellar, flipping a coin in the dark. I thought that the implication in The Long Halloween was that he was wrong beforehand. Doesn't take away from the nobility of his actions but it does make them slightly more understandable. Well, apart from the Solomon Grundy bit, for the life of me I'll never fathom why he was included in such an otherwise superb comic book.

 

[StorminNorman]

Wait, but wasn't Harvey messed up before his little acid trip? I mean, he seemed to spend a lot of time in the cellar, flipping a coin in the dark. I thought that the implication in The Long Halloween was that he was wrong beforehand. Doesn't take away from the nobility of his actions but it does make them slightly more understandable. Well, apart from the Solomon Grundy bit, for the life of me I'll never fathom why he was included in such an otherwise superb comic book.

No. The Long Halloween showed him as being a great guy, an overall noble guy. Spending time with his work bench and flipping a coin does not show him being evil.

Those were included though because the Loeb clearly wanted the audience to think [BLACKOUT]he was Holiday.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Venom 1988]

From what I got from that scene in the THL was that he may have not have a great childhood with his Dad. So he wanted to rise above that and try and do good in the world.

Beyond that, I don't think it was trying to show he was evil or anything like that.

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

I like TLH and think that's the way to go, no Big Bad Harv.

 

[Mister J]

Here - perhaps for the first time - Nolan has given us a character that is not only perfect internally, but externally.

Well put, Norman. Two Face the initial imagery and statements we've been privy to so far make it seem as it Two Face has made a near-exact leap from the pages of TLH.

I only wish he would of done the same for the Joker.

Again, I concur.

 

[TheBatman072]

I agree.


Except for the part about Joker.


If what Caine said about him is true.

 

[Watson]

Could someone PM or direct me to where I can find the pics fo the Harv toy?


Norm this is a great analysis. I think, like you, Nolan finds Two-Face a more intriguing and complicated charcter. Hopefully that is what we get.

I don't know if we'll ever get it now, but I want to see as well is the comparison between the Joker and Harv. I always thought they were best summed up at the end of Dark Victory.

Joker: For all his talk, What did Two-Face really want? Getting rid of a bunch of gangsters. Same as Ol'Harv. He never understood Gotham City like you and me, Bat.

 

[StorminNorman]

I agree.


Except for the part about Joker.


If what Caine said about him is true.

What did Caine say? Did I miss something about him being Perma-White?

 

[TheBatman072]

What did Caine say? Did I miss something about him being Perma-White?

At some point there was an interview with Caine, and he was talking about the Joker character.

Spoiler

Saying that Joker never takes off his make-up, but applies more and more as it fades away. And it starts to stain his face and such. Becoming permanent.

 

[StorminNorman]

At some point there was an interview with Caine, and he was talking about the Joker character.

Spoiler

Saying that Joker never takes off his make-up, but applies more and more as it fades away. And it starts to stain his face and such. Becoming permanent.

That I could buy.

 

[TheBatman072]

That I could buy.

Me too. It wouldn't bother me at all.

 

[The Shape]

I love what I've heard about Two Face, but also the Joker. We have a Joker whose appearance seems radically different, yet he appears to be more true to the character than ever, and then we have a Two Face who looks/acts like his comic counterpart and will actually serve a purpose, unlike in Batman Forever.

Kudos to Nolan from me.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Fact is: Harvey Dent (in the comics) is a very underdeveloped character. There isn't a lot of material about him when he was a D.A.

And they often forget that Two Face is not an entirely evil character. He has in fact a good side. For example, in the early comics he gave the money he robbed to charity and so on.

Let's the what the Dark Knight brings.

 

[StorminNorman]

Fact is: Harvey Dent (in the comics) is a very underdeveloped character. There isn't a lot of material about him when he was a D.A.

And they often forget that Two Face is not an entirely evil character. He has in fact a good side. For example, in the early comics he gave the money he robbed to charity and so on.

Let's the what the Dark Knight brings.

The Long Halloween (and to a certain extent - Year One and Dark Victory) do a nice job of painting a complete picture of Harvey Dent.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Well said Norm, I agree. I believe Nolan has totally nailed the character of Two Face. The Joker is awesome, and we know he's going to be great. But it's Harv who can take the film to the very next level. I placed it in my sig in May of '07 and it shall remain: I Believe in Harvey Dent.

 

[ronny]

Spending time with his work bench and flipping a coin does not show him being evil.

It's not that he was evil. It's just that spending time in the dark flipping a coin is unwholsome. Being unwholsome and being evil are two different things.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

Personally, as long as we get a dark, serious, and tortured version of both Dent and Two-Face, then Nolan has done right. I want him actually doing things, like killing people, instead of JUST flipping his coin. He needs to be more active.

 

[The Guard]

If he goes from "good" to "evil", that will just be two shallow a portrayal of the character in this day and age. He needs to have a dark side, an aspect of him that is "two-faced", something he struggles against, that comes out when he becomes Two-Face.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I agree with you alot, StorminNorman.

I said in another thread that I think the key to this transition is not just the acid to the face, but (if Nolan does this) Rachel's death.

If all of this is so, Bruce Wayne and Harvey Dent are going to have a lot of things in common. Bruce becomes Batman through his losses. Dent becomes Two-Face through his. But now both have different ideas on how to take on criminals. Two-Face can't deal with letting the justice system of Gotham work them through, instead, making his own law. While Batman is the one trying to balance his rules with Gotham's laws... and not kill anyone in the process.

When Dent becomes Two-Face, he'll probably become vengeful self-assassine, taking down mob bosses left to right. The road Bruce avoided in Batman Begins... but also the road that will come to rehaunt him in The Dark Knight as well.

 

[StorminNorman]

If he goes from "good" to "evil", that will just be two shallow a portrayal of the character in this day and age. He needs to have a dark side, an aspect of him that is "two-faced", something he struggles against, that comes out when he becomes Two-Face.

But is Two Face evil?

I prefer Loeb's Two Face who was a murderous vigilante more than a simple murderer.

 

[Carnotaur3]

But is Two Face evil?

I prefer Loeb's Two Face who was a murderous vigilante more than a simple murderer.

Right, he had "cause" in his eyes.

 

[Figs]

Damn good post Stormin! I fully agree and it has me anticipating not just the film but that new trailer as well that should show more of him.

What really has me curious is how Eckhart as well as Eric Roberts I believe, have said how they won't say 'why' he is doing the killings.

"Well, I mean, in terms of villains and movies, in anyone’s motivation in a movie you’re always trying to improve your lot in life and to exact your own code in life and I think that Harvey Two-Face has a code, and his code is killing people for reasons that…will remain secret."

It just makes me wonder what those reasons are, since we know the character from the comics is about doing his own brand of justice I wonder what else they might have included for the film version.