The Dark Knight Harvey Dent/Two Face Thread

[Doctor Jones]

In the last scene when we finally see Dent insane, we get a glimpse of a look that he has when he's surveying Gordon's family. His mouth is open. There's another look when Gordon calls out Dent and he's holding his son, and he's smiling. The scarred side may show it. But at those two parts, especially the latter, Eckhart IS Two-Face there for me. My favorite interpretation of the character that Eckhart is so derserving of but isn't getting the recognition he deserves.

 

[Papa Burgundy]

man two face was awesome and eckhart was brilliant. at least he got gq man of the year for the performance lol. the academy doesnt award comic book movies anyway, and now theres talk of the dark knight, and their still ignoring some of the best parts of it.

 

[calibud]

My friends and I were joking the other day...

Just slap Two-Face lightly or throw alcohol on him. He's down. Simple as that. xD

LMAO. Or even squeezing a lemon wedge in his general direction.

Anywho, I'm really disappointed in what little acclaim Eckhert has received. Before seeing TDK, I fully expected him to be overshadowed by Heath. But I didn't expect him to be so damn good.

"Just because you are a character, doesn't mean you have character."

Heath's Joker was wonderful. An original, creepy, threatening, insane psychopath who manages to appear omnipresent and omniscient. He deserves his accolades. But there's zero characterization there. No arc. He explains his motives and principles (or lack thereof), but the appeal and wonder of The Joker is in the performance, while Harvey Dent's appeal is in the writing.

To see him turn from an idealist willing to fight and put his life on the line for Gotham, to an anarchist who has lost all faith in justice because of how it's caused more harm than good is heartbreaking. My favorite scene in the film is Harvey's "turn to the dark side" in the hospital bed. He's vulnerable, angry, aimless. The Joker gives a great speech about how the system is only an illusion created to distract from people's true nature yada yada...but Aaron speaks what, three sentences? And he's still just as effective in that scene as Heath. His facial expressions alone express his resignment to anarchy and vengeance.

Aaron had the most complex role in the film. Every character is tested emotionally, ethically, and physically. But Harvey is the rope in the tug-of-war between Batman and The Joker. His conflict is not whether to continue fighting crime, but whether "making your own luck", or forcing justice upon society through direct action is even comparable to politics and courts and police. Compare that conflict to Bruce and Lucius's ethical boundaries, or The Joker's...well nothing there.

More than one person I've spoken to about TDK have complained about the seemingly immediate shift from DA to criminal by Harvey. It was instantaneous. But considering the circumstances, recalling the scene with the gunman at Loeb's funeral, Harvey's thirst for eradicating crime had already crossed the line. Rachel's death pushed him further, and he punished those who were responsible by subjecting them to chance. Everything he believed about forcing things into their rightful, just place was literally blown to bits. If I were in that situation, my faith in order would be shaken as well.

Crap I wrote too much. Bottom line: Aaron Eckhert needs more recognition.

 

[Papa Burgundy]

It was somewhat obvious CGI, but not distractingly so. And it was done great, because the only way to really do Two-Face justice with the eye and such was with CGI. It worked. To complain it is not realistic enough (and then complain that the Joker is too realistic) is nitpicking and annoying.

I also really feel that Eckhart's work and Dent's great arc is completely overlooked by most people who watch the movie.

dude the burns look sick and real in bluray. the eye is noticable cgi, but come on the fx are awesome. two face is overlooked by the stupid academy for some reason, when eckhart got about as much praise as ledger. i f'n hate award shows for reasons like this. remember when spiderman 2 got a ton of huge praise but the freakin academy still didnt recognize it?? because it was to comic booky? i f****n hate them. thats like not nominating a movie because its to dramaticy.s tupid.

 

[Anita18]

I also really feel that Eckhart's work and Dent's great arc is completely overlooked by most people who watch the movie.

Was just talking to a friend about this, and we both agreed that we actually didn't care much for Dent or his arc.

Once he turns into Two-Face, he's just a plot device. (Batman and Joker were playing tug-of-war with him up to that point, anyway. So that made his character arc less convincing to begin with, if he wasn't the one initiating it.) It would have been much more interesting, I think, if it were closer to Long Halloween, where we could see Dent doing right in his own messed-up way. But all we saw in TDK was Dent hell-bent on personal revenge for what happened to him and Rachel. He is what Batman COULD be, if Batman didn't have the superpower of will and morality.

Despite what Nolan has said, I don't feel this movie is really about Dent's character at all - it's about Batman and Gordon, and what they have to witness and endure being the only incorruptible people in a wholly-corrupted world.

At least I felt for them most, LOL. My friend prefers Alfred, but maybe that says more about her and older men.

 

[Seditionary]

Thats really ****ing sad to me. Its a shame that you can completely overlook what an actor does for a character in a movie. For the entire relationship between harvey and rachel he is pretty much the most convincing part for me. And as far as rachel is concerned in nolan's films...its the only main character they made up for the films. I think that any normal person deals with doing the right or wrong thing every day. Example, some guy left two dollars at my cafe today for like a $1.73 coffee and I thought about just pocketing two dollars instead of the .27 cents he left for me. Anyones possible of right or wrong regardless of whether there is a batman in town.

I firmly believe that in this movie, heath should be seriously challenged for best supporting actor by Aaron Eckhart. And if you can't see that, I think that is a serious personal problem.

 

[ChrisB]

Thats really ****ing sad. Its a shame that you can completely overlook what an actor does for a character in a movie.

I firmly believe that in this movie, heath should be seriously challenged for best supporting actor by aaron eckhart. And if you can't see that, I think that is a serious personal problem.

I agree! I have never heard of, or seen a movie with Aaron Eckhart, but he did an AMAZING job!

 

[Jokers_Wild]

I agree! I have never heard of, or seen a movie with Aaron Eckhart, but he did an AMAZING job!

Word. I can't see anybody else being Harvey Dent/TF now...Eckhart is so perfect in TDK!

 

[BestGirl]

Was just talking to a friend about this, and we both agreed that we actually didn't care much for Dent or his arc.

Once he turns into Two-Face, he's just a plot device. (Batman and Joker were playing tug-of-war with him up to that point, anyway. So that made his character arc less convincing to begin with, if he wasn't the one initiating it.) It would have been much more interesting, I think, if it were closer to Long Halloween, where we could see Dent doing right in his own messed-up way. But all we saw in TDK was Dent hell-bent on personal revenge for what happened to him and Rachel. He is what Batman COULD be, if Batman didn't have the superpower of will and morality.

Despite what Nolan has said, I don't feel this movie is really about Dent's character at all - it's about Batman and Gordon, and what they have to witness and endure being the only incorruptible people in a wholly-corrupted world.

At least I felt for them most, LOL. My friend prefers Alfred, but maybe that says more about her and older men.

I so wish TDK would've been split into two movies and then filmed back to back. TDK1 could've been released this year and TDK2 could've been released next year. Imagine more Joker, more time to develop Harvey Dent, more Two-Face... I'm a greedy fangirl.

 

[[A]]

Ahh I remember that one.. the movie ending with Harvey Dent saying "half"

 

[Reek]

i agree eckhart deserves some love for his supporting role too. he did fantastic. hes really good in thank you for smoking too.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea he's hilarious in that.

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

I never want a Batman film to be split unless it was Kill Bill style. God, just look at POTC and The Matrix trilogies. (Facepalms)

 

[Anita18]

Thats really ****ing sad to me. Its a shame that you can completely overlook what an actor does for a character in a movie. For the entire relationship between harvey and rachel he is pretty much the most convincing part for me. And as far as rachel is concerned in nolan's films...its the only main character they made up for the films. I think that any normal person deals with doing the right or wrong thing every day. Example, some guy left two dollars at my cafe today for like a $1.73 coffee and I thought about just pocketing two dollars instead of the .27 cents he left for me. Anyones possible of right or wrong regardless of whether there is a batman in town.

I firmly believe that in this movie, heath should be seriously challenged for best supporting actor by Aaron Eckhart. And if you can't see that, I think that is a serious personal problem.

I'm not saying that Eckhart didn't do a fine job - he did an AMAZING job for what he was given. (I was very impressed with all of the little mannerisms Eckhart adopted for Dent. Same with Oldman for Gordon as well.) I just don't think Dent was an interesting a character as say, Gordon was. Dent was an idealist who wanted to always do the "right" thing, criticizing Gordon for working with cops who had been investigated for corruption. But as all good guys do, he made an exception for the woman he loved, and that's what ultimately made him snap at the end. There was no bad side to him otherwise. It's kind of like the character of Jack in Titanic. Leo DiCaprio wanted to add a little edge to him, but James Cameron disagreed. It certainly makes for a stronger contrast between characters (or in Dent's case, how he changed), but I don't think it makes him interesting. There's no inner torment.

Compare that with Gordon, who has to internally fight the guilt he feels for trusting cops who turned out to be corrupt and thus have it be his fault that Dent falls. ("Dent is in there with them! We have to save Dent! I have to save Dent!")

Even Bruce Wayne has more inner torment than Dent does. His trying to do the right thing causes innocent people to be killed, which is what he wants to prevent most of all. Thus, he constantly doubts his role as Batman and what good he's actually been doing.

I dunno, maybe I just gravitate toward characters who are emotionally tormented.

I so wish TDK would've been split into two movies and then filmed back to back. TDK1 could've been released this year and TDK2 could've been released next year. Imagine more Joker, more time to develop Harvey Dent, more Two-Face... I'm a greedy fangirl.

That would have been cool, but I also think that cliffhanger endings are lame.

It's not that TDK is lacking as a film because Dent/Two-Face's true potential wasn't realized. The movie isn't about that. It's about how can one stop an anarchist who has no rules, and still come out with morals intact. Two-Face is about the different facets of justice.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Hot Toys Harvey Dent/Two Face - The Dark Knight review

http://www.mwctoys.com/REVIEW_012309b.htm

 

[Spider-Vader]

Ugh... That figure looks cheap. Especially compared to the other ones.

 

[DACrowe]

Was just talking to a friend about this, and we both agreed that we actually didn't care much for Dent or his arc.

Once he turns into Two-Face, he's just a plot device. (Batman and Joker were playing tug-of-war with him up to that point, anyway. So that made his character arc less convincing to begin with, if he wasn't the one initiating it.) It would have been much more interesting, I think, if it were closer to Long Halloween, where we could see Dent doing right in his own messed-up way. But all we saw in TDK was Dent hell-bent on personal revenge for what happened to him and Rachel. He is what Batman COULD be, if Batman didn't have the superpower of will and morality.

Despite what Nolan has said, I don't feel this movie is really about Dent's character at all - it's about Batman and Gordon, and what they have to witness and endure being the only incorruptible people in a wholly-corrupted world.

At least I felt for them most, LOL. My friend prefers Alfred, but maybe that says more about her and older men.

I disagree. I find the arc of Dent more interesting as one of tragedy. Seeing a good man slowly turn bad is far more intriguing to me than a series of misdirections that attempt to cause the reader (or audience) to assume he is already a serial killer and doubt his quality of goodness from the get-go like Long Halloween did.

I mean I loved The Long Halloween and think it is overall the best Two-Face story ever written and used to be the best Dent story. But I personally prefer Nolan's to any comic book (or animated) interpretation of the character to date. Making Dent the white knight and Batman's hope for a life without being Batman was far more interesting to me.

As for his third act change, he is not a plot device but one piece of the triumvirate. I see the movie about these three characters that represent the facets of protecting society and how far can they go to protecting society before they lose what they are protecting. The Joker is the catalyst.

I loved Gordon, but he is and will always be old reliable. His scenes where he confronts the Joker in the interrogation scene and doesn't break are great. But really the only scenes that I felt really allowed Oldman to flex his acting muscles were the ones where he confronted Dent at the beginning, in the middle at the hospital and at the end. His near insane need to save Dent, with "I HAVE TO SAVE DENT" shows how he is more passionate when blaming himself for Dent's fall (which was somewhat his fault for using corrupt cops that Dent repeatedly told him about) and his end scene with Two-Face that pushes him to his limits.

I wouldn't say Two-Face is a plot device. You are right he is a vigilante that took it too far and crossed the line Batman didn't.

I love Long Halloween, but Two-Face's plan was pretty similar. Kill those who wronged him, or at least let fate judge them. First Falcone (in TDK it is Maroni and the two corrupt cops that betrayed him and Rachel) and then the assistant DA (again the two corrupt cops). He then turns himself in. His major plans to "save" the city were in Dark Victory which I also like and feel completed Two-Face's best arc possible in the comics.

But ending it essentially at the point where TLH ended is fine by me. Him being a make-shift mobster never sat well with me or working with freaks. I could see him becoming a lone vigilante who views justice in his own twisted way, but oh well. I think Dent's arc in the movie does move the film otherwise it is 2.5 hours of Batman and Gordon trying to stop the Joker from blowing **** up. It is what makes TDK so much more. If the movie had ended with Batman just saving the ferries and defeating the Joker it would not be as interesting. Instead the triumvirate won in some ways, but by cheating the fact that they were fallible. One fell and died and they have to lie to win because in reality Joker may have been right. Or maybe not. The ambiguity it creates is great.

To me Two-Face is the second most interesting character in the movie after the Joker, of course.

 

[BestGirl]

But ending it essentially at the point where TLH ended is fine by me. Him being a make-shift mobster never sat well with me or working with freaks. I could see him becoming a lone vigilante who views justice in his own twisted way, but oh well.

I could see Two-Face working with freaks and turning into a mobster as a means to an end. He would think, "Well, if this is what I have to do to financially support my vigilante mission, so be it."

I think Dent's arc in the movie does move the film otherwise it is 2.5 hours of Batman and Gordon trying to stop the Joker from blowing **** up. It is what makes TDK so much more. If the movie had ended with Batman just saving the ferries and defeating the Joker it would not be as interesting. Instead the triumvirate won in some ways, but by cheating the fact that they were fallible. One fell and died and they have to lie to win because in reality Joker may have been right. Or maybe not. The ambiguity it creates is great.

To me Two-Face is the second most interesting character in the movie after the Joker, of course.

QFT

 

[JonnyQ]

I came out of the IMAX and said to my friends after seeing the film saying that I thought Dent was the best part of the film.

 

[DarKJediKnight]

More than one person I've spoken to about TDK have complained about the seemingly immediate shift from DA to criminal by Harvey. It was instantaneous. But considering the circumstances, recalling the scene with the gunman at Loeb's funeral, Harvey's thirst for eradicating crime had already crossed the line. Rachel's death pushed him further, and he punished those who were responsible by subjecting them to chance. Everything he believed about forcing things into their rightful, just place was literally blown to bits. If I were in that situation, my faith in order would be shaken as well.

That's what I've been saying to my friends - that compared to Anakin's fall, Harvey's more convincing. That his other side has been well laid out and exposed before his turn. I like the part where he discovered that half of his two-faced coin is burn, from that point on I knew that it's already over, we already have Two-Face.

 

[CaptainClown]

Harvey from the beginning has all been about action and then thinking. He "makes his own luck" and likes to think that most of the things he is doing is right. Just to see it all crumble before him is enough to break him. At least that is how I look at it.

 

[Anita18]

I disagree. I find the arc of Dent more interesting as one of tragedy. Seeing a good man slowly turn bad is far more intriguing to me than a series of misdirections that attempt to cause the reader (or audience) to assume he is already a serial killer and doubt his quality of goodness from the get-go like Long Halloween did.

I mean I loved The Long Halloween and think it is overall the best Two-Face story ever written and used to be the best Dent story. But I personally prefer Nolan's to any comic book (or animated) interpretation of the character to date. Making Dent the white knight and Batman's hope for a life without being Batman was far more interesting to me.

As for his third act change, he is not a plot device but one piece of the triumvirate. I see the movie about these three characters that represent the facets of protecting society and how far can they go to protecting society before they lose what they are protecting. The Joker is the catalyst.

I loved Gordon, but he is and will always be old reliable. His scenes where he confronts the Joker in the interrogation scene and doesn't break are great. But really the only scenes that I felt really allowed Oldman to flex his acting muscles were the ones where he confronted Dent at the beginning, in the middle at the hospital and at the end. His near insane need to save Dent, with "I HAVE TO SAVE DENT" shows how he is more passionate when blaming himself for Dent's fall (which was somewhat his fault for using corrupt cops that Dent repeatedly told him about) and his end scene with Two-Face that pushes him to his limits.

I wouldn't say Two-Face is a plot device. You are right he is a vigilante that took it too far and crossed the line Batman didn't.

I love Long Halloween, but Two-Face's plan was pretty similar. Kill those who wronged him, or at least let fate judge them. First Falcone (in TDK it is Maroni and the two corrupt cops that betrayed him and Rachel) and then the assistant DA (again the two corrupt cops). He then turns himself in. His major plans to "save" the city were in Dark Victory which I also like and feel completed Two-Face's best arc possible in the comics.

But ending it essentially at the point where TLH ended is fine by me. Him being a make-shift mobster never sat well with me or working with freaks. I could see him becoming a lone vigilante who views justice in his own twisted way, but oh well. I think Dent's arc in the movie does move the film otherwise it is 2.5 hours of Batman and Gordon trying to stop the Joker from blowing **** up. It is what makes TDK so much more. If the movie had ended with Batman just saving the ferries and defeating the Joker it would not be as interesting. Instead the triumvirate won in some ways, but by cheating the fact that they were fallible. One fell and died and they have to lie to win because in reality Joker may have been right. Or maybe not. The ambiguity it creates is great.

To me Two-Face is the second most interesting character in the movie after the Joker, of course.

Sorry for the delayed response - I wanted to refer to TLH to pick up some specific points but then I realized that I lent it to a friend and she hasn't returned it yet. (I still have her entire collection of Transmetropolitan, so I guess we're even...) So I'll have to go on memory.

What makes Dent's shift in TLH more convincing for me is that despite his drive for legal justice, we can see how easily he COULD snap if given the opportunity. ("Two bullets to the head. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.") The worst he gets in TDK is torturing Schiff, but he did it for love of Rachel (always the out for a good guy) and we discover later that he wasn't going to kill him anyway. He doesn't truly wish death upon anyone, until his actual snapping point, at which he goes bad completely and suddenly.

Also, even after Dent turns in TLH, you can still see a glimmer of former Dent in Two-Face. One of the most powerful panels in the story, to me, is when Two-Face has a gun aimed at Batman point-blank. Batman reminds Dent of his wife Gilda, and a glimmer of recognition crosses Dent's face. Batman then says, "Give me the gun, Harvey," and Dent refuses. Not by shooting him point-blank, but by hitting him in the face with it. ("Nice try.") Dent acknowledges how far he's fallen, and he refuses to regret it.

I did like the white knight/dark knight contrast, although I felt more for Bruce in that. You can sense how much he really wants Dent to succeed.

 

[BestGirl]

Sorry for the delayed response - I wanted to refer to TLH to pick up some specific points but then I realized that I lent it to a friend and she hasn't returned it yet. (I still have her entire collection of Transmetropolitan, so I guess we're even...) So I'll have to go on memory.

What makes Dent's shift in TLH more convincing for me is that despite his drive for legal justice, we can see how easily he COULD snap if given the opportunity. ("Two bullets to the head. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.") The worst he gets in TDK is torturing Schiff, but he did it for love of Rachel (always the out for a good guy) and we discover later that he wasn't going to kill him anyway. He doesn't truly wish death upon anyone, until his actual snapping point, at which he goes bad completely and suddenly.

Also, even after Dent turns in TLH, you can still see a glimmer of former Dent in Two-Face. One of the most powerful panels in the story, to me, is when Two-Face has a gun aimed at Batman point-blank. Batman reminds Dent of his wife Gilda, and a glimmer of recognition crosses Dent's face. Batman then says, "Give me the gun, Harvey," and Dent refuses. Not by shooting him point-blank, but by hitting him in the face with it. ("Nice try.") Dent acknowledges how far he's fallen, and he refuses to regret it.

I did like the white knight/dark knight contrast, although I felt more for Bruce in that. You can sense how much he really wants Dent to succeed.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I wish TDK had been split into two movies. There was enough material there!

 

[Anita18]

I said it before and I'll say it again: I wish TDK had been split into two movies. There was enough material there!

Definitely, but I just love TDK's last 2 minutes to absolute bits. I don't think I'd be willing to give that up to make Two-Face last two movies!

 

[DACrowe]

Sorry for the delayed response - I wanted to refer to TLH to pick up some specific points but then I realized that I lent it to a friend and she hasn't returned it yet. (I still have her entire collection of Transmetropolitan, so I guess we're even...) So I'll have to go on memory.

What makes Dent's shift in TLH more convincing for me is that despite his drive for legal justice, we can see how easily he COULD snap if given the opportunity. ("Two bullets to the head. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.") The worst he gets in TDK is torturing Schiff, but he did it for love of Rachel (always the out for a good guy) and we discover later that he wasn't going to kill him anyway. He doesn't truly wish death upon anyone, until his actual snapping point, at which he goes bad completely and suddenly.

Also, even after Dent turns in TLH, you can still see a glimmer of former Dent in Two-Face. One of the most powerful panels in the story, to me, is when Two-Face has a gun aimed at Batman point-blank. Batman reminds Dent of his wife Gilda, and a glimmer of recognition crosses Dent's face. Batman then says, "Give me the gun, Harvey," and Dent refuses. Not by shooting him point-blank, but by hitting him in the face with it. ("Nice try.") Dent acknowledges how far he's fallen, and he refuses to regret it.

I did like the white knight/dark knight contrast, although I felt more for Bruce in that. You can sense how much he really wants Dent to succeed.

I see what you're saying, but Dent is already somewhat psychologically unhinged in TLH and that causes the reader to doubt his goodness throughout the story, so that once he does turn it feels expected. In TDK him becoming a truly likable person who goes through a massive tragedy makes his character more poignant.

As you point out Dent does have a dark side. In the movie he honestly admires Batman and wishes he could do what he does (be a vigalante). And his sense of justice past what is considered ethical is hinted at when he admires a man who led to the end of democracy in Rome (while comparing him to Batman, a man he honestly admires now) and then of course he tortures Schiff. He doesn't plan to kill him, but he obviously pushes boundaries. As you said he was doing it for love. The thing is, Dent is very self-righteous in all interpretations. In Nolan's world, he needs order. He constructs order around him.

He says he "knew the risks when I took this job." But he doesn't actually think that he will lose or suffer. He believes the world is ordered into black/white. That is why he is sure Batman will save him, and that Gotham needs Batman. His order is completely destroyed when the Joker scars him. And it might have been avoided if Gordon had listened to Dent's suspicions, instead of operating in ambiguity. Dent is an idealist who cannot stand a pragmatist like Gordon as Dent does not tolerate corruption or grayness. And in this case he was right, it cost him everything. His career, his face and most of all his love.

So he has to reconstruct the world to make sense to him. The Joker comes to a broken and mentally fractured Dent (who is refusing to have facial reconstruction and is basically dying in that bed) who convinces him the world is meaningless. So Harvey "Two-Face" decides he will bring order into that world the same way it meaninglessly chose him to "be the only one" to suffer. The way it chose him to be scarred and Rachel to die.

So he creates order in the chaos in the only way he sees he has left. And he knows the consequences. He says "You think I want to escape from this? There is no escape from this?" Batman says point blank that he does not want to hurt a child and Dent replies "It is not about what I want, IT IS ABOUT WHAT'S FAIR." There you see Harvey Dent. He doesn't enjoy playing the role of villain, but he sees this is the only thing he has left...creating order in a world that he thought he had control of and stabbed him in the back. He will bring back order by punishing those who destroyed his world or should be judged like he.

That is why he can so emotionlessly shoot Batman, but there is no sense of joy. He likes Batman and he obviously doesn't want to kill himself, and so sadly aims the gun at his own head. He is just really ****ed up in the head. But at the same time he chooses to judge himself before Gordon, because maybe he won't have to kill the kid.

So I'd say that is all there.