Harvey Dent/Two Face Thread

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight' started by TripXyDE, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Definitely, but I just love TDK's last 2 minutes to absolute bits. I don't think I'd be willing to give that up to make Two-Face last two movies!
     
  2. DACrowe Registered

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    I see what you're saying, but Dent is already somewhat psychologically unhinged in TLH and that causes the reader to doubt his goodness throughout the story, so that once he does turn it feels expected. In TDK him becoming a truly likable person who goes through a massive tragedy makes his character more poignant.

    As you point out Dent does have a dark side. In the movie he honestly admires Batman and wishes he could do what he does (be a vigalante). And his sense of justice past what is considered ethical is hinted at when he admires a man who led to the end of democracy in Rome (while comparing him to Batman, a man he honestly admires now) and then of course he tortures Schiff. He doesn't plan to kill him, but he obviously pushes boundaries. As you said he was doing it for love. The thing is, Dent is very self-righteous in all interpretations. In Nolan's world, he needs order. He constructs order around him.

    He says he "knew the risks when I took this job." But he doesn't actually think that he will lose or suffer. He believes the world is ordered into black/white. That is why he is sure Batman will save him, and that Gotham needs Batman. His order is completely destroyed when the Joker scars him. And it might have been avoided if Gordon had listened to Dent's suspicions, instead of operating in ambiguity. Dent is an idealist who cannot stand a pragmatist like Gordon as Dent does not tolerate corruption or grayness. And in this case he was right, it cost him everything. His career, his face and most of all his love.

    So he has to reconstruct the world to make sense to him. The Joker comes to a broken and mentally fractured Dent (who is refusing to have facial reconstruction and is basically dying in that bed) who convinces him the world is meaningless. So Harvey "Two-Face" decides he will bring order into that world the same way it meaninglessly chose him to "be the only one" to suffer. The way it chose him to be scarred and Rachel to die.

    So he creates order in the chaos in the only way he sees he has left. And he knows the consequences. He says "You think I want to escape from this? There is no escape from this?" Batman says point blank that he does not want to hurt a child and Dent replies "It is not about what I want, IT IS ABOUT WHAT'S FAIR." There you see Harvey Dent. He doesn't enjoy playing the role of villain, but he sees this is the only thing he has left...creating order in a world that he thought he had control of and stabbed him in the back. He will bring back order by punishing those who destroyed his world or should be judged like he.

    That is why he can so emotionlessly shoot Batman, but there is no sense of joy. He likes Batman and he obviously doesn't want to kill himself, and so sadly aims the gun at his own head. He is just really ****ed up in the head. But at the same time he chooses to judge himself before Gordon, because maybe he won't have to kill the kid.

    So I'd say that is all there.
     
  3. TylerHaslett Registered

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  4. Arsh Awesome

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    Wow... that's pretty amazing.
     
  5. Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Hmm, I like your points, but I dunno. I still feel more for TLH Harvey than TDK Harvey. I guess I just gravitate towards characters who really can't help careening into self-destruction. :funny:
     
  6. ronny Registered

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    Watch Thank You For Smoking if you can.
    Eckhart's snappy performance changes what could have been an average film into something truly enjoyable.
    Watching this it's easy to see why Nolan cast him.

    That doesn't make what he did any better. Schiff was a mental patient, a man not responsible for his actions, a man who any civilised people would try and help. But Dent treatened him and bullied him and made him whimper like a frightened animal.
    If you ask me, this foreshadowed Two-Face quite well. Before that I really liked Dent, I was rooting for him.
    But after the Schiff moment I was realy starting to wonder just what kind of man Gotham had elected. Much like Dent's freak-outs in The Animated Series.
     
    #12056 ronny, Feb 8, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
  7. I Am The Knight Tonight's a good night.

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    I personally prefer "Eye of the Beholder" as Two-Face's origin story. His origin in BTAS is also damn good. I just couldn't feel much for Dent in TLH, and as a matter of fact I prefer Dark Victory to TLH overall.

    Dent's turn in TDK can feel a bit forced, but I tend to ignore that. Which is why I wished he had been introduced in BB and gradually built from there on to finish his arc in TDK. He's certainly a much innocent soul than in Eye of the Beholder or TLH. But I gotta admit, I loved the obsessed with justice angle.
     
  8. Ace of Knaves Registered

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    Yea I feel that if he had a small role in BB his arc could of been better. Or even if he was just mentioned as a new upcoming Attorney or something.
     
  9. Crook Registered

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    A mere mention or cameo would have done nothing for his character development leading into TDK. He should have been a major supporting player in BB. That way they wouldn't have had to cram in his entire arc into one movie.
     
  10. Ace of Knaves Registered

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    Yea but at least we would of known that he is coming up. I mean, the gap between BB and TDK is thought to be roughly 6 months right? So it seems a bit silly that he wasn't mentioned atall in BB but then just pops up as the new D.A 6 months later.

    But yea it would of been better if he had a proper role in BB.
     
  11. I Am The Knight Tonight's a good night.

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    Yeah....Or his arc continued in B3.
     
  12. Crook Registered

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    Finch was the DA at the time. Dent had no place. It makes sense for him to show up in TDK because Gotham needed a replacement for the DA that was just killed in BB.

    It's funny because we all expected him in the sequel. No one would have guessed Harv/Two-Face would have been developed and killed off in the same movie with Joker.
     
  13. Rincewind grezdei

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    The gap is more like a year, I think. And he doesn't just pops up suddenly. There was a D.A. in BB (I can't remember his name right now) who got killed. Then there was another D.A., who was often mentioned in the viral campaign of TDK. It was up until then when Dent became D.A. Before that he probably was just a too small a fish in the pond to be mentioned and noticed.
     
  14. I Am The Knight Tonight's a good night.

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    I guess the natural choice would have been for Dent to be an up and coming DA in BB, taking Finch's place (or even Rachel's) Also sets up the Dawes-Dent love thing in TDK.

    I was expecting him to be scarred at the end like most people I suppose. I've always felt Dent's arc should be a "Two-Parter."
     
  15. Ace of Knaves Registered

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    I know there was a D.A in BB. But Dent must of been a well know Attorney in his own right to even be in the running of new D.A.
     
  16. Crook Registered

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    Doesn't mean he has to be in Gotham at the time.
     
  17. Ace of Knaves Registered

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    Yea I see what you're saying. Like he came to Gotham in between BB and TDK?
     
  18. Crook Registered

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    Yup. Like the new city hot-shot.
     
  19. DACrowe Registered

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    He was an attorney for the DA's office in Internal Affairs in GCPD. He then ran for the DA office as a "Change" and transformative candidate. Also given he said "I'm not up for election for another 3 years," and that he had to have time to prepare a major case against the city's crime lord (Maroni), as well as take down many money launderers and thugs to have "Dent prisoners" leads me to believe he has been in office for at least one year.

    So, if you take the viral campaign to be part of the continuity (which I'm not sure, given that it is the marketing team and had little to do with what the Nolans were making), that would mean this is 18 months after BB, as Gotham had a interim DA that was corrupt and dent took down for half a year.
     
  20. Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Jonah Nolan and TDK associate producer Jordan Goldberg met often with 42 Entertainment to discuss the viral's storyline. So I'd consider it part of the overall continuity.

    According to The Gotham Times, Dent was working at a private law firm when BB went down, and when he saw the opportunity in the DA office, he took it.
     
  21. DACrowe Registered

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    I think I remember that. But for that to be accurate to the movie, then Dent never could have been a lawyer working at IA for at least a few years, gaining him the police's hatred as "two-face." And the corrupt DA before him is never mentioned in the movie who apparently was one of the cruxes of the trial at the start.

    So, I dunno.
     
  22. Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    It didn't have to be years - it can be argued that Batman's existence really got things going. Gordon doesn't mention how long Dent worked at IA, he only mentioned that Dent made his name there.

    The We Are The Answer tipline got its start shortly after the ARG began, and probably shortly after BB ended, if we were forced to assign a timeline.

    Sure, it would be unrealistic for Dent to have prosecuted a bunch of officers within a year, but this is a movie, after all. :oldrazz:
     
  23. blackkeno Registered

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    When I first saw TDK, I thought that Dent going after Gordon and his family was contrived. What happened to Dent was horrible, but Jim had worked so closely with him it just didn't seem reasonable to me.

    Afterr seeing the movie about 20 times, I realized how the foreshadowing really did explain Jim's culpability and Two Face holding him responsible.

    In Dent's office he says he doesn't like that Jim has his own unit staffed with people Dent investigated at IA. On the rooftop, he name Werts and Remirez, specifically, as scum he had the goods on. When Jim decides to keep Lau in the MCU holding cell, Harvey says he doesn't trust them (Jim's people) there.

    So Dent warned Jim repeatedly about his people and specifically about the two that ulitmately led to his scaring and his fiancee's murder. When the weight of this dawned on me, it really made sense that a derranged Two-Face would go after Jim and the ones Jim loved.

    Also at the end, Jim's admission of responsibility originally seemed like just a convincing lie to save his family. But Harvey's warnings, combined with Jim's interaction with the Joker, when the Joker asked Jim who he left Dent with, followed by Jim's stated need to "have to save Dent," shows that he probably did recognize that he really was responsible.

    What a great scene.
     
    #12073 blackkeno, Sep 10, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  24. Crook Registered

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  25. Pfeiffer-Pfan Cool Rider

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    You know... I felt completely satisfied with Harvey Dent's story arc in The Dark Knight.

    I like that Nolan isn't thinking with a franchise mentality and allowing the story to flow naturally.

    But damn... Aaron Eckhart was just soooo good as Dent/ Two-Face, I just wish Nolan would fling him into a Lazarus Pit lol.
     

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