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Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - Part 4

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Snyder's emotional aesthetic is not geared to the 'classic' tropes of Superman past nor do we live or would accept those as contemporary living or 'times'. Superman Returns attempted this and it's perceived to have failed at a lack of action or relying on harking back to past glories, Snyder amended and gave us a 'balance' in MoS and still got pilloried for it so it begs the question, what do people actually expect ? Snyder's strengths are not driven by character aesthetic nor understanding, he is a visual medium, driven by what he believes to be the correct choice, Jim Cameron has much the same belief and no one seems to mind him having singular themes in the presentation of his films.

The line in the film where Superman is saying effectively 'no one stays good', is his admission he's failed and buy the nature of him being drawn in to the position, he's questioning his own position, worth, approach to society, not that's he's 'giving up' as many believe him to have done.
 
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Don't forget too, misslane, that with all that angst brought upon Clark that manifested itself within' the core where vile (both within' Clark and within' the metaphorical fanbase as well) spread like a parasite (that parasite being Lex Luthor) guess who saved Lex from daddy's fists and abomination? Talk about the virtue of actions speaking louder than words.

One of my favorite Superman scenes ever:

kNGt0AW.gif
 
Coming from a guy who was disappointed with Batman v Superman, I disagree on the "Martha" thing being stupid. I didn't care for the film's solution to them becoming allies but in itself it was interesting, and I don't think it was that unbelievable.

Because Batman realizes after trying to kill Superman that he was wrong, and that Superman is just as human as he is.

I think the point was more about Batman realizing he was blinded by hate and that he was wrong. He may not completely trust Superman yet.
 
I read 'Martha' as it's use was making the most of the symbolic acceptance drawn by the name and they as you say used it well and 'traded' upon it. It's Batman seeing the 'humanitarian' within the alien guise, that underneath it's the humanity of Lois and mankind that underpins Superman's primary directive to strive for good in all and that he came from 'somewhere' with the need for a mother as much as the loss Bruce suffered. This is what shakes him from his self enclosed world, that another man has suffered as he has yet is willing to place that all to one side to save humanity. Batman is essentially saying, 'if he can so can I, he has lost equally as I have'.
 
I read 'Martha' as it's use was making the most of the symbolic acceptance drawn by the name and they as you say used it well and 'traded' upon it. It's Batman seeing the 'humanitarian' within the alien guise, that underneath it's the humanity of Lois and mankind that underpins Superman's primary directive to strive for good in all and that he came from 'somewhere' with the need for a mother as much as the loss Bruce suffered. This is what shakes him from his self enclosed world, that another man has suffered as he has yet is willing to place that all to one side to save humanity. Batman is essentially saying, 'if he can so can I, he has lost equally as I have'.

Beautifully put.
 
Here's the thing. The "Martha" moment is only really about Superman on the surface, including the element that even when his own life is in danger, he's still thinking of others. Up to the point Superman says "You're letting them kill Martha" and Lois reveals that this is his mother. People seem to misread the sequence after this as entirely being some kind of "You're human after all and we both have mothers!" moment. And that's there to be sure, the idea that Superman has someone he cares about is part of the plot that is being returned to at that point, but its the surface idea of the moment. That's not the main point of the sequence at all. Watch the sequence of events.

The point of the sequence is about Batman's recognition of the loss of his own humanity, which is why when Clark says "Martha", instead of further dialogue about Clark and his humanity, we immediately see a flashback to Bruce's origins and see Bruce confronting his own inhumanity and his own demons, recognizing that he's almost become the destructive force that birthed him, and then essentially trying to atone for it by promising that Clark's mother won't die. It's basically Batman apologizing without actually doing so.

Martha/the mother figure, represents the loss of innocence in Bruce's life.

But people insist on reading it as a simple "We both have moms" scene. Eh.
 
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I always wondered why big blue said Martha instead of my mother and it only just hit me that when first confronting Batman before they fight he says, "Bruce, please, I was wrong." So given that Superman knew his identity he may very well know Bruce's history. Thereby using Martha instead of Mother as a way to get to Bruce's better nature.
 
I always wondered why big blue said Martha instead of my mother and it only just hit me that when first confronting Batman before they fight he says, "Bruce, please, I was wrong." So given that Superman knew his identity he may very well know Bruce's history. Thereby using Martha instead of Mother as a way to get to Bruce's better nature.

He could have also been going for Martha Kent as what good is it if he says save my mother if he doesn’t even know who your mother is.
 
Uhm, no man. Look MOS imo is visually stunning, and the cinematography is much better the CA trilogy movie, if you have to compare them. But the example you used is wrong. Both are different situations with different ways to tell the story.

Also being condescending about other people's opinions is not cool. Like this is the type of stuff that brings a bad name to us DCEU fans. Dont do this, you are better than this.
the meme is all about that one scene... "one scene only!" the hero surrounded by the authorities. it isn't about the situation they were put in or the quality of the whole film and story!

in marvel, they just did it repeatedly and in a non creative way. "the angle and the viewpoint"
in MOS, it is a "BANG" the view itself has great emotion!

jesus, why everything has to be explained in detail and drawn on wall!!!
 
Look I know many people like to dismiss that moment, and many people didnt look past the surface for that scene and thats why they dont like it. But there are also many who did understand it, and still dont like it because they think it was executed badly. I personally felt it was great and very emotional. No need to call other people stupid right?
i didn't call them stupid. "simple minded" is the word.

it isn't just about the martha moment.

the meme is about their thinking. they thought if superman explained to batman that lex made they fight, batman would stop fighting him and help him. therefore they mock about the movie when they totally don't get the movie.
 
Coming from a guy who was disappointed with Batman v Superman, I disagree on the "Martha" thing being stupid. I didn't care for the film's solution to them becoming allies but in itself it was interesting, and I don't think it was that unbelievable.

Because Batman realizes after trying to kill Superman that he was wrong, and that Superman is just as human as he is.

I think the point was more about Batman realizing he was blinded by hate and that he was wrong. He may not completely trust Superman yet.

I feel the same way, honestly.
 
I feel the same way, honestly.

"Martha" might be the most misinterpreted film moment of 2016. So many people seemingly going out of their way to miss its point just to add more nitpicks to their pile (not talking about those who did get the scene, but still didn't like it).
 
It was misinterpreted, but it was also poorly executed.
 
It was misinterpreted, but it was also poorly executed.

Do you remember when this thread used to be fun? When we'd post pictures/gifs of HC and be shameless objectifying hussys? I miss it :csad:
 
No amount of pretty shots will ever trump actually caring about what is actually happening in the shots themselves.

I agree, which is why I recall very little of the context of any of the three Captain America scenes and recall everything about the Superman scene. That scene is one of the most pivotal scenes in Superman's story so far: it's the moment that decides whether the world (or at least a small part of it) is ready to accept Superman.

It is the turning point that shows the military shifting from treating Superman as an enemy to treating Superman as a friend. It's about a supremely powerful alien who could lash out at mankind like his fellow Kryptonians choosing instead to humble himself and ask for their acceptance and support. The shot of Superman's one booted foot with the figures of soldiers approaching in the distance only serves to underscore the imbalanced power dynamic.

Yet, Superman submits. It's not about being cornered or overpowered. It's the opposite, in fact. It's so interesting and so powerful because of the inversion of typical power dynamics. Superman doesn't have to submit or seek the allegiance of the human military, but he does. And this is also the moment humanity decides its own fate as a people that can see goodness and hope when it presents itself or only sees a terrifying enemy.

It is a moment that is profoundly linked the themes of the film and the overarching themes of every Superman myth. It is symbolic of the relationship between Superman and humanity -- how tenuous it can be and how vital it is to take a leap of faith.

None of the Captain America moments made a similar impact on me. I'm sure there's meaning to be found in them, and in their repetition, but I obviously didn't connect at all with those moments or their meanings.
 
Do you remember when this thread used to be fun? When we'd post pictures/gifs of HC and be shameless objectifying hussys? I miss it :csad:

The sunlight will never be cast upon our faces again due to the gloomy dark cloud that floats above us entitled the DCEU. :o
 
I think one of my issues with the whole "Martha" thing is that even if Batman realized that Superman had more humanity within than he originally thought, that shouldn't have affected his viewpoints concerning his "1 % chance" statement that he made to Alfred earlier in the film.

And based on the future that we saw, Bruce was right to think as such as Superman was corrupted in the original timeline.
 
I think one of my issues with the whole "Martha" thing is that even if Batman realized that Superman had more humanity within than he originally thought, that shouldn't have affected his viewpoints concerning his "1 % chance" statement that he made to Alfred earlier in the film.

And based on the future that we saw, Bruce was right to think as such as Superman was corrupted in the original timeline.

Why wouldn't it have? It's not like he was being rational when he made that statement. If he no longer sees Superman as a threat then it stands to reason that his logic wouldn't hold up either. Even with the future vision in question, the stuff Lex said and Superman's death would certainly lead him to question things.
 
Why wouldn't it have? It's not like he was being rational when he made that statement. If he no longer sees Superman as a threat then it stands to reason that his logic wouldn't hold up either. Even with the future vision in question, the stuff Lex said and Superman's death would certainly lead him to question things.

Agreed.

That 1% chance dialogue was all about "Threat Perception", and perceptions can change, after better analysis of the threat, or when better evaluation is done when more information is available.
 
I don't want these characters to be icons. I want them to be characters. Too often Superman is reduced to an idea, concept, or celebrity. I don't like that. What I want out of a modern Superman, like Cavill, is a Superman that feels both fantastical and rooted in the real world. I want him to be human and accessible, and that means being flawed or at least less of a cartoon.



First of all, love this. Second of all, I saw a few kids dressed as Superman this Halloween. This Superman isn't being marketed as much to kids, and maybe that's not a good thing, but this Superman means a lot to this adult and several of my adult friends. The DCCU isn't dumbing down or softening the real challenges of being a godlike alien on Earth. It isn't sidestepping the cynicism of the world, the fear of the other and the unknown, how the powerless or the power hungry respond to the powerful, and the religious and existential crises that would undoubtedly result from the debut of a Kryptonian Superman. Superman isn't being simplified, and his iconography is being built from the ground up instead of being taken for granted. Rather than a fairy tale character, the DCCU is approaching Superman like a classic myth. And that's okay.



Superman is not at all cynical about the world. The world, like our world today, is cynical and he's trying to cope with its cynicism. This Superman's first instinct is always to help. Much of his internal conflict as a boy and young man centered around his innate desire to help and have purpose in a world that would seek to twist those desires until whatever good he could do was rendered ineffective. This Superman has had to cope with the world's fears and jealousies.

Yet, ultimately, despite all of the cynicism in the world, Clark takes a leap of faith on humanity when it needed him the most. He turned himself into the government believing that his leap of faith with them would pay off with trust, and it did. Superman didn't immediately reject the possibility that either the US military or Zod would betray him. He accepted that he could be betrayed, but the gave both General Swanwick and General Zod the benefit of the doubt by submitting to both of them first.

Superman took a leap of faith on humanity in Man of Steel, and it paid off. For 18 months, the world had a "love affair" with Superman. Humanity constructed monuments to him. The media wrote glowing puff pieces about his every heroic act. Then, cynical and fearful men began to resent humanity's false god, and began to set in motion a series of events that broke the Superman spell. Superman had to answer questions about whether he should act if every act is political. He had to cope with people projecting onto him all of the baggage usually reserved for their gods.

Still, Clark is the one reassuring Lois that things will be okay. Clark is the one arguing with Perry to believe in the American conscience. Clark is the one telling Bruce Wayne that the rest of the world doesn't share Bruce's cynical opinion about Superman. Superman offers Batman mercy (a vigilante Superman believes has become a dangerous criminal), and he willingly submits to the summons to appear before Finch's Superman committee. The bombing momentarily stays Superman's optimism, but he very quickly is able to find the resources within to return to being Superman. He's willing to face the nightmares. How is that not hopeful?

Then, when Luthor tests him with his challenge, Superman first tries to reach out to Bruce. He apologizes and asks for help. He holds back. When Batman backs down, Superman trusts him and gives him a chance to be a hero again. He gives Bruce a chance to make a promise that is worth something, and in his final sacrifice helps Bruce see that men are still good. This isn't hopeful?



And yet, after making that statement, Superman goes onto show that he hasn't really bought into that idea. Not yet. He apologizes to Bruce. He asks for help. These "clowns" were thinking that the audience might be capable of dealing with nuance and interpreting actions rather than just words. These "clowns" were hoping that the audience would see that Superman's boundless optimism and inspirational qualities don't come to him on a silver platter. That kind of hopefulness takes work and is forged through fire.


Oh, misslane...

tumblr_njmx0inx2y1unchqzo1_500.gif


It saddens me that so many people don't see this, and it saddens me even more than plenty of the people that don't see it, is because they don't wanna see it...and then try to convince us that "most fans/general audience" feel the same way....

Then I remember that I'm perfectly happy with these movies and that they made money and that they'll continue making them and it's all good...

:woot:


Polux
 
One of my favorite Superman scenes ever:

kNGt0AW.gif


I was so in tune with the movie in my first viewing at that point, I had to pause, think about it, turned to my wife and said "Did Supes just catch Doomsday's fist there?" Beautifully crafted scene that typically goes unnoticed by those who convinced themselves that this Superman is not hopeful and has done nothing inspiring. Typical.
 
Because the 1% doctrine was just a rationalization so that the logical part of his brain would allow him to go through with his plan with the real reason for his plan being an extreme midlife crisis due to a sense of feeling powerless and that his work throughout the years had amounted to nothing but his own misery and the death of those he loved. So when he worked through that and that fog fell away so too did the 1% doctrine.
 
Posted this before but thought it was pertinent to the 'Martha' discussion.

I don't think the Martha scene was entirely about Bruce seeing Superman as more human, as such.

As a child having his parents forcibly taken from him, he was surely left with feelings of powerlessness, anxiety, insecurity, and isolation. And as time passed, that grew into an ceaseless rage that (combined with his fortune and resources) led to him becoming Batman and waging a 20-year fight on criminality in Gotham. Being Batman is what allowed him to take back power, and control. To deliver justice as he saw fit. And to quote from BvS newspaper clippings, to become judge, and jury, and executioner.

When the events of MOS occurred, his perspective was given was a sideways blow. Criminals didn't matter any more; they were small fish in a big sea. There were other events going on in the world; apocalyptic events which were beyond the power of humanity to control, events being orchestrated by races of beings from far out in the universe with powers beyond comprehension.

And once again, Bruce was reduced to that small boy, powerless to stop things, losing his 'family' (in the Wayne building) and facing a growing insecurity about his place in the world. He had been returned to the one place he never, ever wanted to go again.

So he does what he's always done. His rage kicks in, and his brutality steps up a notch. Superman - be he good or bad, it doesn't matter - now represents all that Batman fears, and his paranoid and jaded psyche conjures up images of an Earth destroyed, with a maniacal Superman ruling over what's left. This is what ultimately drives Batman to deliver such a brutal beating to Superman, and to arrive at the point where is almost prepared to murder him.

As we know, he teeters back from the precipice at the last minute, clearing his mind of the fog which has enveloped it when he is startled by the utterance of a single word - 'Martha' - which means so much to both him and Superman. It is a word that reminds him why he became Batman in the first place, which was to fight injustice and to stop murders like this ever happening again, and makes him realise he has now become that twisted and distorted injustice which he has fought against for so long.

The motivation works for me, because two straight-thinking heroes would never resort to the type of brutal fight that Batman and Superman engaged in. There's no question that Batman in this film is not straight-thinking initially, and is presented almost as a villain, and that why's the fight occurs how it does. He's not a villain because he's is devoid of goodness, but because he has let his anger and rage take control of his sensibilities. His reasons for wanting Superman dead are driven by paranoia, and his actions in pursuing his goal are selfish and misguided. Ultimately though he comes to his senses, rejects what he has been trying to convince himself of, and redeems himself somewhat by saving Martha Kent. Bruce himself realises that he was the one in the wrong when he watches Clark's funeral and utters the words "I've failed him ........... in life."

It is a measure of Superman's capacity for forgiveness and understanding that despite being almost murdered by Batman, he immediately accepts his help in saving Martha and doesn't seem to harbour any resentment towards him from that point on. And not only that, but to give his life to save Earth despite the vitriol and blame throw at him from some quarters (Batman included) for the events which occurred in MOS, and at the start of BvS. This convinces Batman that there's still good in men; that they still have the capacity to do the right thing even when under immense pressure and having enough power to do anything they want to.
 
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