BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Tony Gunk]

Why did he decide to throw him around? Because Batman had the place boobie trapped. Bruce wasn't listening. He was baiting. Supes took two steps as Bruce was walking away slowly and right away, Supes was stuck in a super sonic wave of electricity and had machine guns rattling off at him. The fight took a turn when he was hit with Kryptonite. These weapons were deigned to hurt and kill Clark. He just didn't decide to start throwing Bruce around. He was fighting restrained at that point and he was weakened. At that point, he had to fight for his life. Bruce had him under the influence of Kryptonite and fear.

Nothing could harm Superman, he didn't know about the existance of kryptonite and it's effects on him at this point, all it showed was that Superman has a complete lack of control (and common sense), that is just not Superman for me

 

[Tony Gunk]

"I guess people can't stay good" or whatever it was.

Superman always believes people can stay good, even when faced with a situation like that.

Mind you, I did like how he seemed to believe Bruce could be reasoned with. That is supermanish.

that was the line! Thank you!!

You summed it up too, that's just not Superman, he always believes in humanity. I forgave them in MOS because of the circumstances of that film, he was young, he wasn't sure of his place in the world, wasn't sure of humanity. But this point, 2 years later in BvS? No excuse for it at all, it was a truly awful line to give Superman, I literally shook my head it was that bad.

 

[BH/HHH]

"I guess people can't stay good" or whatever it was.

Superman always believes people can stay good, even when faced with a situation like that.

Mind you, I did like how he seemed to believe Bruce could be reasoned with. That is supermanish.

I can't agree, he's nit a fully fledged Sueprman he deosn't have it all worked out. In the scene he's conflicted. If you think that's nit Superman read some of the stuff he did in the 70s lol

I think it's fair to say you can dislike it and say it's not how you like your Suoerman but no one can say it's not Superman.

 

[The Guard]

Batman wasn't letting up. He kept attacking. Superman was trying to stop him long enough to reason with him which he had already tried to do. Batman was not listening and attacked constantly.

And yes. Superman was angry. That's what happens in a pitched fight. Emotiona run high.

 

[MrsKent26]

But he did find a way, and there was only one way. His way was convincing Bruce to fight alongside him. The quote came as a straight up fear that he wouldn't be able to convince Bruce. Bruce isn't the type that is easily convincable and Clark questioned that it could be done. He was preparing for the worst. And he only had so little time.

I understand that and agree, but I still don't like it. I guess I wanted this superman to be more fully formed and classic. I wanted the inspiration aspect to come out more. I would have preferred him to put his fear aside and try to reassure Lois in that scene.

 

[The Guard]

Can I point out that "no one gets to stay good" does not equal having no faith in humanity? It reflects the realization that there is a cost to all this.

 

[Tony Gunk]

Batman wasn't letting up. He kept attacking. Superman was trying to stop him long enough to reason with him which he had already tried to do. Batman was not listening and attacked constantly.

And yes. Superman was angry. That's what happens in a pitched fight. Emotiona run high.

I'm not buying that. If he wanted to, instead of propelling Batman 30 feet away, he could have grabbed him, pinned him to the ground and said "Bruce, we're being pitted against each other, it's all Lex, he's got my mother".

I can't look the other way and pretend that what actually happened isn't stupid on Superman's part.

 

[PacificBoy]

I'm not buying that. If he wanted to, instead of propelling Batman 30 feet away, he could have grabbed him, pinned him to the ground and said "Bruce, we're being pitted against each other, it's all Lex, he's got my mother".

I can't look the other way and pretend that what actually happened isn't stupid on Superman's part.

Exactly.

 

[Tra-El]

Nothing could harm Superman, he didn't know about the existance of kryptonite and it's effects on him at this point, all it showed was that Superman has a complete lack of control (and common sense), that is just not Superman for me

Superman wasn't even in control. That was the point. Superman didn't want to fight. The most powerless position anybody can be in , regardless of power, is trying to convince somebody that is hell bent on wanting nothing else but to fight, to reason with them. If Bruce could be convinced so easily, then that's a lack of understand of the Batman character. Bruce was in a trance. There was nothing that could of been said to convince him. He was going to kill Superman. He didn't have much time. He was helpless.

 

[PacificBoy]

Nothing could have been said to convince Batman except speaking out the name of his late mother? Wasn't he resolved?

 

[BH/HHH]

Why did he decide to throw him around? Because Batman had the place boobie trapped. Bruce wasn't listening. He was baiting. Supes took two steps as Bruce was walking away slowly and right away, Supes was stuck in a super sonic wave of electricity and had machine guns rattling off at him. The fight took a turn when he was hit with Kryptonite. These weapons were deigned to hurt and kill Clark. He just didn't decide to start throwing Bruce around. He was fighting restrained at that point and he was weakened. At that point, he had to fight for his life. Bruce had him under the influence of Kryptonite and fear.

We know from Man of Steel this Superman will lose his temper aswell. Look at the scene where Zod threatens Martha he loses his mind. In this film Batman blasts him with all sorts ad is rousing to listen so he takes option B.

 

[Rapunzel]

Well, at first he tries to say what's going on. Then, there's all the booby traps and I think he's just trying to get away from them.

Then, the k-rock comes out and I think he probably gets pissed that Bats is trying to kill him.

It's not perfect, but.... here's the kicker:

Even the "perfect" Supes everyone keeps saying Snyder doesn't understand.... isn't perfect! He still makes occasional mistakes and yes, occasionally acts like a jerk.

 

[MrsKent26]

Can I point out that "no one gets to stay good" does not equal having no faith in humanity? It reflects the realization that there is a cost to all this.

Sure. And it's not an abomination. But there are many things they could've had him say there that would not only be more interesting, but more in line with where the character should be after actively being superman for 2 years.

 

[Tra-El]

I'm not buying that. If he wanted to, instead of propelling Batman 30 feet away, he could have grabbed him, pinned him to the ground and said "Bruce, we're being pitted against each other, it's all Lex, he's got my mother".

I can't look the other way and pretend that what actually happened isn't stupid on Superman's part.

Superman didn't want to show harm. He was showing peace and waving the white flag. Bruce baited him the entire time so he wouldn't get caught in the position to be pinned down. The boobie traps were designed to throw Superman off and buy more time to lure Superman where he wanted to lure him. Bruce was prepared for a confrontation. Clark was in desperation mode.

And it was shown before that weapons effect Superman. The may not be able to hurt or kill him, but they are an annoyance to him that can stop him in his tracks if he wasn't ready for it. He got caught off guard.

 

[The Guard]

I'm not buying that. If he wanted to, instead of propelling Batman 30 feet away, he could have grabbed him, pinned him to the ground and said "Bruce, we're being pitted against each other, it's all Lex, he's got my mother".

I can't look the other way and pretend that what actually happened isn't stupid on Superman's part.

This is true except that he couldn't just hold Batman down because of Kryptonite. Batman gasses him almost immediately.

Reasoning is all well and good. It does not however, make for satisfying drama in the context of this fight.
What he ended up doing was a far more interesting version of that, And relevant to both characters

 

[Rapunzel]

Sure. And it's not an abomination. But there are many things they could've had him say there that would not only be more interesting, but more in line with where the character should be after actively being superman for 2 years.

But he (Supes) is being forced to do something that goes against what he truly believes. I think was he's saying at that point with Lois is that the world is corruptive, is corrupting him. He's tired of his good works not being enough.

But then Bats shows a change of heart, and WW comes to help him and he realizes that this world doesn't corrupt everyone. And that's why he can die for it.

He's having a crisis of faith and that's okay with me. His faith is later restored and it's temporary. I see no problem with this introspection. It just shouldn't last forever and be done by JL.

 

[The Guard]

Sure. And it's not an abomination. But there are many things they could've had him say there that would not only be more interesting, but more in line with where the character should be after actively being superman for 2 years.

i don't disagree with you, and we can want that all we want, but we cannot look at the meaning of the line in a vaccum of what we wanted.

 

[Saint]

I could have been more on board with Superman's arc in the film if the third act had anything to do with the his central struggles and allowed him to confront those challenges. Instead he just reaffirms his love of Lois and punches up a semi-conscious big grey monster.

I don't aggressively dislike him, the way I do Batman--and his incredible plot to murder(!) Superman--I just found him to be frustratingly passive, and ultimately his arc doesn't really resolve in a satisfying way.

 

[Tra-El]

This is true except that he couldn't just hold Batman down because of Kryptonite. Batman gasses him almost immediately.

Reasoning is all well and good. It does not however, make for satisfying drama in the context of this fight.
What he ended up doing was a far more interesting version of that, And relevant to both characters

Exactly. If Superman would have just pinned Bruce down, then that's a weak Batman. Doesn't everyone say Bruce is well prepared for anytthing? Give him enough time and he'll outsmart you. They went out of their way to show how hard he worked into not putting himself in a defenseless position to Superman. Plus, it worked out even more because Supes wasn't in the right state of mind. He was vulnerable in every way at that point and it proved to be in Bats favor.

 

[Rapunzel]

Saint-- but the third act is connected to his crisis. He's bearing a burden alone. The third act is the perfect resolution because now he has help... which will allow his struggles and challenges to be manageable. Unfortunately, it happens too late for him to live and see it...for now.

 

[Steelsheen]

reads reads and reads this thread. and reads some more.

*thinks of what to add*



shirtless Clark huzzah!!

 

[The Guard]

I could have been more on board with Superman's arc in the film if the third act had anything to do with the his central struggles and allowed him to confront those challenges. Instead he just reaffirms his love of Lois and punches up a semi-conscious big grey monster.

I don't aggressively dislike him, the way I do Batman--and his incredible plot to murder(!) Superman--I just found him to be frustratingly passive, and ultimately his arc doesn't really resolve in a satisfying way.

But it is. His central struggle, his personal struggle, is about whether to live his life with Lois or do his duty to the world.

 

[Tra-El]

But it is. His central struggle, his personal struggle, is about whether to live his life with Lois or do his duty to the world.

Even Lois had that realization in the beginning where she feared that he couldn't love her and be him at the same time.

 

[PacificBoy]

He said his world IS Lois. He regards the rest of humanity as his obligation, his burden.

 

[Saint]

Saint-- but the third act is connected to his crisis. He's bearing a burden alone. The third act is the perfect resolution because now he has help... which will allow his struggles and challenges to be manageable. Unfortunately, it happens too late for him to live and see it...for now.

In the film, Batman and Superman are both challenged by the idea that they don't have the right to do what they are doing, to be making the choices they make for those affected by their actions. This is a struggle articulated by Jonathan Kent's story.

Them joining forces doesn't change frame or address this question. Nor does punching up a big grey monster.