BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Tobias]

I apologize for the following because it's a bit of an over-dramatic rant, but I hope I'm entitled to one of those every now and then....

As a Supes fan, these are frustrating times. We're getting some supes (and any supes is better than none), but it's still not satisfying.

So far we've got:

MOS: Unsure, alienated wanderer Clark (Fair enough; I can accept this given that it's an origin story).

BvS: Still unsure Supes after two years who is under fire from the public and who fights batman. Then becomes dead (!) supes.

JL: Possibility of evil/mind-controlled/amnesiac supes...after (!) we've already dealt with dead (!) supes for some portion of the movie.

There's been some gimmick, some hook every time and perhaps this is what Snyder and Co think needs to happen to make superman interesting. But it's a fallacy! If they give us regular supes and do it right, the audience will have a tear in their eye because they're filled with hope for mankind. It doesn't even need to change the tone of the movie! It will just add some different emotions to the roller coaster! They just need to give us regular supes! Just some goddamned regular supes!

It drives one to rant when the answer to all this is simple. Yet they have eyes and seemingly don't see. WB and Snyder that is.

I think the Superman characterization has been far off in MOS and BvS. Certainly for the GA who seem to have given SR, MOS and BvS a thumbs down on their dark, mopey rarely speaking Superman. BTW, someone posted a quote from an SR review that asked why Superman and Clark spoke so little in that film.

As a fan this characterization is something I haven’t seen to any degree in Superman. I think it is a turn off to many Superman fans as well as the GA.

The notion that Superman is hard to write for is ridiculous IMO. But it has been said many times it has now been accepted as de fide. Even Cavill repeats that mantra.

I rewatched S:TM yesterday and hold your horses – I am not wanting to go back to the red trunks or the Donner version but, on the topic of dialog check out the rooftop interview. Absolutely charming and engaging. Snappy lines with I guess what may have been risqué humor back then – Lois asks:

Spoiler

"How big, .. I mean tall, are you”.

The scene where Luthor explains his plans to Superman in the lair is well written. Not campy. Superman delivers sharp, quick dialog that works.

Superman/Clark does the most talking in S:TM of any character. Go figure.

The BvS takeaway is that WW is being praised as one of the best things of the film, along with Batflek. Why? She smiled, she looked like she was having fun, she was witty and sharp in her brief sets of dialog.

The answer is give us a regular Supes again. And no, that does not mean copying Reeve/Donner.

 

[Rapunzel]

Pretty much agreed. How long can he be so introspective? Felt he should have found where he stands with the world after 2 years of being at it. This is why I felt it was a regression from MoS. And the ending did not help.

Yeah, I think Snyder had a good arc for Supes, but didn't execute very well. He should have started with some scenes of Supes being traditional Supes, and then show the frame ups and hostility wearing him down. That would have done a lot to improve the arc and Supes' character. Instead, he's getting worn down from the start and it doesn't feel like there's been any progress. I think the ideas were good, just not fleshed out the way they should have been.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I hope when I comes back that Clark/Superman will finally be at peace with his role and we can see him enjoy it more. But that doesn't mean I don't think that his arc through MOS and BvS was a very good, realistic take on him. I think he's been great so far, and hopefully they have some truely epic plans for him.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Yeah, I think Snyder had a good arc for Supes, but didn't execute very well. He should have started with some scenes of Supes being traditional Supes, and then show the frame ups and hostility wearing him down. That would have done a lot to improve the arc and Supes' character. Instead, he's getting worn down from the start and it doesn't feel like there's been any progress. I think the ideas were good, just not fleshed out the way they should have been.

It definitely didn't feel like 2 years had passed. It felt like a few months maybe.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

"No one cares about Clark Kent taking on the Batman!"

Yes, we do Mr. White. Yes, we do.

 

[Herolee10]

Well, I haven't given up hope yet, but I understand those that have. I'm trusting in WB to see the response to BvS and reign Snyder in.

Herolee, I know you were saying you wished you were as optimistic. I'm looking at the JL concept art and trying to maintain faith.

The saddest part of this whole film is the dedicated fans lose that faith. I hope Snyder realizes that making fans lose faith in his abilities is bad thing.

Well I commend you for your courage on this.

Personally, I've been burned one way too many times to ever trust Snyder again. Building expectations and having hope in a product handled by him has been disastrous for me.

Every time when I expect him to follow through with common sense, he comes out with stupidity. I don't want to hope that this guy can even do Superman justice in JL.

I've already accepted the fact that he doesn't consider Superman to be a leader, nor does he consider him to be integral to the JL.

And even though Superman is in JL, he won't be a part of the JL. Mark my words on that folks. The concept arts are just for show.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I wouldn't allow Snyder to come to comic con anymore. And I wouldn't blame a single person if they all jeered at him as he came on stage.

 

[Rev]

How crap was the flying in BvS?

Really really crap, just a little digital red and blue blur most of the time. Seeing him fly is one of the greatest parts of displaying this characters powers.

"Nah forget practical effects I haven't got time for Superman it's Batman that counts here, practical effects take time, just have Henry stand on the ground and we'll add it all in post production and do the crash landing 20 times"

Personally speaking, I thought the flying scenes were pretty amazing and showcased Clark's power and control quite well.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Yeah, I think Snyder had a good arc for Supes, but didn't execute very well. He should have started with some scenes of Supes being traditional Supes, and then show the frame ups and hostility wearing him down. That would have done a lot to improve the arc and Supes' character. Instead, he's getting worn down from the start and it doesn't feel like there's been any progress. I think the ideas were good, just not fleshed out the way they should have been.

I agree. So. Many. Wasted. Opportunities.

 

[Rapunzel]

I agree. So. Many. Wasted. Opportunities.

I'm dying to see the extended cut....I wonder if it will improve anything.

 

[Mad Ones]

Snyder wants Superman to be Dr. Manhattan. What I actually LIKED about BvS was that it tried to show what deconstruction (a la Dr. Manhattan style commentary) does to the figure/concept. Except Superman was rarely made accessible to the audience (and the moments where he was were the best - bathtub scene, reacting to Martha, etc).

 

[Rapunzel]

Yeah, instead of multiplying the things that worked in MoS, he multiplied the things that were least effective about it. It's very strange.

As for the Dr. M comparisons, I'll say it again: I think Superman is only interesting to Snyder as a concept to examine, and a cipher for philosophical themes. This doesn't make for an entertaining Supes.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Yeah, instead of multiplying the things that worked in MoS, he multiplied the things that were least effective about it. It's very strange.

As for the Dr. M comparisons, I'll say it again: I think Superman is only interesting to Snyder as a concept to examine, and a cipher for philosophical themes. This doesn't make for an entertaining Supes.

Couldn't agree more there.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

I'm dying to see the extended cut....I wonder if it will improve anything.

Hope so. I would very much like to see Superman doing more than just staring at the Senate Hearing.

 

[MrsKent26]

The thing is that a more classical or what I've been calling "regular" superman isn't even that remote or far from what we've been getting. There just needs to be a few tweaks, which really boils down to more dialogue and a couple more upbeat scenes for him. Superman is definitely not that hard to write for. Heck, I'm pretty sure I could do it:

Spoiler

Take that Capitol scene, for example. Instead of having him just come in and stand there, they could have postponed the explosion. Perhaps Lex leaves his gift for the Senator after a break in the hearing or something. This would allow the the Senator time to ask superman the hard questions like "Do you think you're above the law?" or "Do you consider yourself a danger to humanity? And he could give some honest and heart-felt answers like "No, I respect the law whenever possible (and he does) and I'm more like a rescue worker than a vigilante (he just captures bad guys and leaves punishment to the law)." He could also tell his side of the Africa thing. The question that TV interviewer asked Finch would even be a good one for her to ask supes: "Why must there be a superman?" And he could say "There is" with that superman smile. Then maybe the explosion can happen, but he's able to save a few people because he detected the bomb. Maybe he even saves Mercy, lol.

See? Pretty simple. Where's my check, WB?

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

The thing is that a more classical or what I've been calling "regular" superman isn't even that remote or far from what we've been getting. There just needs to be a few tweaks, which really boils down to more dialogue and a couple more upbeat scenes for him. Superman is definitely not that hard to write for. Heck, I'm pretty sure I could do it:

Spoiler

Take that Capitol scene, for example. Instead of having him just come in and stand there, they could have postponed the explosion. Perhaps Lex leaves his gift for the Senator after a break in the hearing or something. This would allow the the Senator time to ask superman the hard questions like "Do you think you're above the law?" or "Do you consider yourself a danger to humanity? And he could give some honest and heart-felt answers like "No, I respect the law whenever possible (and he does) and I'm more like a rescue worker than a vigilante (he just captures bad guys and leaves punishment to the law)." He could also tell his side of the Africa thing. The question that TV interviewer asked Finch would even be a good one for her to ask supes: "Why must there be a superman?" And he could say "There is" with that superman smile. Then maybe the explosion can happen, but he's able to save a few people because he detected the bomb. Maybe he even saves Mercy, lol.

See? Pretty simple. Where's my check, WB?

It's the simple things. They just need capitalization. I liked this .

 

[Herolee10]

Eh, who knows....maybe someone with the right mind will reboot this franchise a decade from now and give us a Superman that we deserve on film in terms of presentation and usage.

And to think that "Smallville" (during its later seasons) is pretty much the best presentation of Superman's character out of EVERYTHING that's come up thus far in live action.

 

[X Knight]

Eh, who knows....maybe someone with the right mind will reboot this franchise a decade from now and give us a Superman that we deserve on film in terms of presentation and usage.

And to think that "Smallville" (during its later seasons) is pretty much the best presentation of Superman's character out of EVERYTHING that's come up thus far in live action.

I loved BvS and I'm looking forward to the rest of Superman's arc in JL ( and in his own solo sequels if possible ).

however, I certainly wouldn't complain if at some point in the future we got a reboot of the DC cinematic universe with more traditional takes on the characters with a "lighter" more upbeat tone for Superman's reboot.

 

[Rapunzel]

Any reboot probably won't have Cavill. I doubt I'll ever like any Superman as much.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ Ditto. That's why I want them to get it right this time.

 

[Tony Gunk]

It's a bit sad that Captain America is more Superman than Superman

 

[The Guard]

With all that killing...

 

[X Knight]

yes, if we get a reboot, we'll be getting a different Superman actor.

but if that means getting a more faithful/traditional/lighter/upbeat portrayal of the characters, that's a sacrifice I'll be willing to accept........lol.

sorry Cavill fangirls.

 

[Rapunzel]

It's a bit sad that Captain America is more Superman than Superman

Um....no.

 

[Rapunzel]

^ Ditto. That's why I want them to get it right this time.

Crossing fingers we get what we want!

 

[Vlyse]

I could forgive Superman's characterization in BvS if it was all a crescendo to just ONE scene toward the end (i.e. the Court hearing) where he let rip at all his haters.