The Dark Knight How good a fighter should the Joker be?

God, I hope so.....

'drunken fighting kung fu with capoeria'?

Next it'll be that Joker should perform some Matrix-esque' wirework.

:whatever:
 
half and half. I am actually a fan of his rendition in the batman, i think it's a somewhat fresh take on the original that comes off as more insane and i also feel that his relationship with batman is more solidly cemented with his constant reappearances and his motivations centrally around bats more. I mean bats was inside his head, and also had him in his lair while he was a vampire and gave up his own blood to feed him, he's already tortured and turned ethan bennet into clayface and is hinted to also do some horrific things to babara in the future eps artifacts. he takes on a young apprentice to mock batman's batgirl sidekick and then does a similar thing with harley. he even becomes batman in an attempt to bring up the irony of law abiding.

I'm somewhat a fan of this joker and i think his movements and designs go with his superior fighting styles.

perhaps it wouldn't suit these films as such, i don't think the joker being able to fight or at least move acrobatically like a jester is a bad idea for a character that may have gone to stage school to learn comedy etc...

so again, half and half.
 
you know it makes sense...

sure his fighting style shouldn't be orthodox combat techniques, it'd be like drunken fighting kung fu with capoeria thrown in.

it'd be the dog's bollocks

:up:

it need not even be offensive,

Believe me, it is being offensive. :cwink:
 
Kinda like when Lou is beating the crap out of Tyler Durden in the basement of the tavern in 'Fight Club' - only more insane.

It's funny you mention that, I get a serious Joker vibe from that scene. Especially when he’s shaking his head like a dog splattering blood all over guy screaming "You don't know where I've been!!"

Classic
 
ouchkt3.jpg
 
no joke, he's defeated and knocked batman clean out in an equal combat bout in the batman.

it was glorious.

Why would the Joker, who we'll assume, no, we know hasn't trained half as much as Nolan's Bruce be able to take Batman in all his armor. I know some will say the Joker's past remains ambiguous but I just don't buy it.
 
Joker should be able to hit Batman a couple times. Joker shouldnt play far though.
 
The Joker can often hold his own in a fight. He usually relies on some of his nasty toys or guns.

Though, his ability to rarely lose consciousness when getting the crap kicked out of him always astounds me. The hammering he took from Batman in Knightfall is my favourite.

Bane beating him up in No Man's Land was cool, too.

...I totally agree with that.

No, I don't want him to get all "kung-fu" like in *shudder* T...hhh..eee B...aaa..ttt..mmm..aaa...nnn. *barfs* But at the same time I don't want a Superman Returns situation where the hero can't actually fight the villian because he's that much stronger than him.

He shouldn't be at Batman's level when it comes to fighting (hence why I voted for "average") but at the same time should at least take as much damage even when he looks like a a squished ketchup packet.

Oh, and be as insane and tricky as can be (of course :cwink:)
 
this post assumes joker and batman will go at it, like some rocky V street fight. won't happen, but to go along:

batman's almost unparalleled in 1-1 combat, but he, as anyone with even highly trained skills in a real world like nolan's, is subject to suprise. and batman also has a restraint not seen in the worst criminals; what ducard would call his downfall and others his humanity. this is where joker (but i still see no 1-1 combat) gets an edge. also, i see joker as closer to a physical match. expect a bulkier joker (how can one not be less skinny than comics joker). from the bar fights i've seen, none win, maybe one walks away. the bell curve of bar-fighters doesn't swing too wide.

joker can suprise bats, get the jump on him, wound/confuse him with joker gas or even less. joker will have no problem beating a down man (bats would be the opposite; at least in most incarnations). so there the criminal fury provides an edge. no empathy, no sympathy. in real life, first punches provide alot of cover.
 
this post assumes joker and batman will go at it, like some rocky V street fight. won't happen, but to go along:

batman's almost unparalleled in 1-1 combat, but he, as anyone with even highly trained skills in a real world like nolan's, is subject to suprise. and batman also has a restraint not seen in the worst criminals; what ducard would call his downfall and others his humanity. this is where joker (but i still see no 1-1 combat) gets an edge. also, i see joker as closer to a physical match. expect a bulkier joker (how can one not be less skinny than comics joker). from the bar fights i've seen, none win, maybe one walks away. the bell curve of bar-fighters doesn't swing too wide.

joker can suprise bats, get the jump on him, wound/confuse him with joker gas or even less. joker will have no problem beating a down man (bats would be the opposite; at least in most incarnations). so there the criminal fury provides an edge. no empathy, no sympathy. in real life, first punches provide alot of cover.

I agree. Joker also has an edge because he's so insane, he's unpredictible. Whatever Wayne is trained in, it relates to how predictible others are so that Batman can quickly take them down. He's able to determine the situation and know exactly what he needs to do.

With the Joker, it'll be different.
 
this post assumes joker and batman will go at it, like some rocky V street fight. won't happen, but to go along:

batman's almost unparalleled in 1-1 combat, but he, as anyone with even highly trained skills in a real world like nolan's, is subject to suprise. and batman also has a restraint not seen in the worst criminals; what ducard would call his downfall and others his humanity. this is where joker (but i still see no 1-1 combat) gets an edge. also, i see joker as closer to a physical match. expect a bulkier joker (how can one not be less skinny than comics joker). from the bar fights i've seen, none win, maybe one walks away. the bell curve of bar-fighters doesn't swing too wide.

joker can suprise bats, get the jump on him, wound/confuse him with joker gas or even less. joker will have no problem beating a down man (bats would be the opposite; at least in most incarnations). so there the criminal fury provides an edge. no empathy, no sympathy. in real life, first punches provide alot of cover.


Why can't you see a one-on-one fight between Batman and Joker?
 
I think Nolans Joker is going to be a more phsycial and intimidating Joker then we have seen in any form of the comics. Just looking at him in the pictures you can tell he is a threat physically to Batman unlike the in the comics. The Joker is going to be lethal even to Batman!
 
I read Batman #1 today, which is a first appearance that Nolan is using for the film. I know The Man Who Laughs is a retelling of this first appearance, but I remember reading somewhere that Nolan is referencing Batman #1.

The first time Batman and Joker fight, Joker actually beats the p*ss out of Batman and gets away. When Batman gets out of the river from the fight he says that the Joker is the strongest foe he's fought yet.

So, maybe Joker will give Bats a couple good swings to the jaw.
 
average to above average i would say because he cant rely on tricks the WHOLE time hes fighting Batman, he needs to be able to confront him 1 on 1 and hold his own for a litttle while
 
that's where the acid comes in handy if he's about to lose, melting the Begins suit [or not].
 
Why can't you see a one-on-one fight between Batman and Joker?

coupla reasons (and i hope my laptop doesn't peter out again, as i typed this two days ago before a crash).

batman has ninja training. the raison d'etre of a ninja is assasination; their origin is as assasins. suprise, theatricality, patience; all the stuff we heard in BB. that's how one man takes on huge numbers in nolan's 'real' world. and we saw it in BB. first encounter w/ scarecrow in the narrows: bats picks off two henchmen (alerting crane) before trying to take on scarecrow. as ninja would; destroy the easiest threats first, before confronting the unknown.
bats does the same at the shipyard with a little more 'fight 'em all' scene that strecthes the reality a bit (but doesn't bust it open) and is there for a better action sequence and to let us know bats is a badass still new to the biz (like when he wrestled around with a bunch of chinese convicts near the beginning).
ra's: 1-1 fight b/c he has to; and ra's is set-up as good match.
scarecrow part 2: again, picks off goons, even as rachel suffers, before going in. use theatricality to escape (not fight, as he knows odds are bad). leaves crane, as bats won't hurt a wounded man, and also b/c has more pressing matters.

here's where it gets interesting. joker will turn bats training on its head. joker will always have plenty of goons around to warn him of bats presence and have something unpredictable to turn on bats, that is bats will be subject to suprise. and when joker might leave himself alone, it will be a trap. granted, this trap may not involve another person, so i could sorta see a 1-1 fight, but the odds will be stacked in joker's favor so that we can realistically believe a joker victory.

lastly, i see joker around for next movie, and dent as villain to be dispatched in this one. think bats will have to save dent from joker (not that hokey 'arrest me,' bit in TLH). dent has limited use. bale said in some foreign press that the movie is about the toll of doing what he does, and how he might sustain the motivation without crossing lines into criminality. dent will be the mirror to hold up to bats. dent's been at it longer, with less resources (humble beginnings scene), more to lose (loving family still alive and imperiled scene) and 'one bad day' pushes him over the line. saving dent will be bats' motivation, as it is attempt to save himself. he won't. we might even have gordon get some damage (daughter?) and teeter on the edge (so in next film, the two draw closer). this is the empire strikes back of batman, where the bad guys (joker, riddler, a third) end on top. the 'freaks' will rule gotham at the end.
(my wish: bats at the end does cross the line and kill someone and it won't be justified away in the third movie, but used for conflict w/ gordon in act 2 of movie 3; act one being bats and gordon licking wounds and growing closer)
 
I haven't read all the posts in detail, but it seems consistant among most of you guys that Joker's insanity should factor into his fighting quite a bit. There are several ways to add nuance to his violence. I think he shouldn't be too coordinated. But, from what we've heard, he is pretty physical (I'm referring to his rumored behavior toward Bruce's party guests).
 

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