I feel like DC still doesn't know what they're doing

I unabashedly love the Dark Knight Trilogy, but I get poignant watching it now, knowing that end of the day, DC never learned from it and still made ***** of their franchise. :csad:
 
Last edited:
They learned from it, they just learned the wrong lessons. Nolan's approach worked wonders for Batman but Snyder coming in and trying to ape that approach with the rest of the DC stable was a mistake.
 
You can't make the entire DC universe dark and angsty because they're not like that. ****, I still hate how Arrow on CW is basically green Batman.
 
They learned from it, they just learned the wrong lessons. Nolan's approach worked wonders for Batman but Snyder coming in and trying to ape that approach with the rest of the DC stable was a mistake.

That's because the correct lesson, "Focus on story and character above all else", is a hard pill to swallow. Picking a tone is easy. Throwing together shots taken from the comics is easy. Lots of indulgent "kewlness" is easy.

Good writing? That takes actual effort.
 
I think the best way would have been to copy the Marvel method. Do a bunch of solos of main characters that build to a JL. After seeing what we got with BVS I'd have preferred a MOS 2 and Batman solo in 2016.

The MCU phase method has been done before as, but doesn't mean it's bad.

Marvel had to do it the way they did it because they didn't have access to Spider-Man or the X-Men or the Fantastic Four. So they had to introduce the general public to less well known characters first.
It would be like the DCEU having a Justice League movie but only able to use Hawkman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Blue Beetle because other studios had the rights to Superman, Batman, Flash and Wonder Woman.
 
That's because the correct lesson, "Focus on story and character above all else", is a hard pill to swallow. Picking a tone is easy. Throwing together shots taken from the comics is easy. Lots of indulgent "kewlness" is easy.

Good writing? That takes actual effort.

Yup. In fact my major worry after loving Logan was that we're gonna get a bunch of imitators trying to make bleak, "edgy" superhero movies without any regard for what actually made that movie work.
 
Joe Von Zombie:
I don't know how much of an issue is this will be moving forward because I'm just one person, but I have a few of these characters tattooed on my body, I used to have a monthly pull list at my local comic shop that totalled up to around $150, my MoviePass has already paid for itself for the month so seeing Justice League will essentially be free... And I still don't know if I'm going to see it and I cannot be the only person who feels this way. If they can't sell this thing to a guy like me, what the **** are they doing?

Heh, wow this for some reason didn't catch me by surprise. I think tentpole projects that fluctuate in focus constantly (example: extensive re-shoots, constant development hell or shuffling of movies planning to make, mandating runtime from company exec as just few examples) tend to drive core fans away.
 
That's because the correct lesson, "Focus on story and character above all else", is a hard pill to swallow. Picking a tone is easy. Throwing together shots taken from the comics is easy. Lots of indulgent "kewlness" is easy.

Good writing? That takes actual effort.
:up:
 
Thread title should be changed to "WB still doesn't know what they're doing". DC never had autonomy under WB the same way HBO or Cartoon Network do. With their comics division? Sure, but WB has always been in charge of the movie side of things. This ain't anything like Disney's relationship with Lucasfilm. DC has never had any type of control over their cinematic universe. This has always been WB spearheading this garbage heap.

WB has always been a garbage studio when it comes to comic book films. They like to brag about creating the first modern superhero film(Reeves Superman) but that was all financed and put together by the Salkinds and Richard Donner. WB was so disinterested in a superhero film at the time that they ****ed out the Superman license to them for a paltry sum. They were embarrassed by their own IPs, their own characters. It was only after an early cut that they saw the dollar signs and wanted in on distributing Superman. Every time WB has attempted a super hero film on their own, they've stumbled badly. It's only with auteurs like Burton and Nolan hand holding them through a production that they've been able to produce a great superhero movie. Otherwise, you end up with trash like Schumacher twins, the Synder trilogy. Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, etc

The WB execs have contempt for the DC characters and only want to use them and the fans to make money, regardless of quality. This is the Paramount method. For further proof, you all should read Superman vs. Hollywood: How Fiendish Producers, Devious Directors, and Warring Writers Grounded an American Icon. It details WB's sheer incompetence in regards to their Superman productions. Some horrifying stories in there.

I was once against the Siegel/Shuster heirs winning ownership of the Superman character years ago...but after seeing how badly WB has raped the character on the big screen, I wish they had won. Maybe they would have licensed out the character to a studio that actually cares about making a good film.
 
They learned from it, they just learned the wrong lessons. Nolan's approach worked wonders for Batman but Snyder coming in and trying to ape that approach with the rest of the DC stable was a mistake.

I think they focused on the thing that was easiest to replicate (it being dark and serious), but they seemed to totally missed the fact that this approach specifically worked for the character of Batman, as you say, who's always been very malleable in this way.

They had a tonal mismatch right from the beginning IMO. MoS never really achieves the pseudo-realism tone it's going for because it's an over the top alien invasion story with tons of CGI that ends up feeling more like a video game by the end. They also didn't give their universe much room to grow in terms of stakes since the very first movie already deals with an Earth-wide threat.

Most of all though it feels like they made the mistake of assuming TDKT's success was due solely to being "dark", forgetting that those are very well-made films that told good stories. The pseudo-realism allowed a wide audience to really invest in the stakes and root for Bruce Wayne (who was portrayed as a flawed but likable character) on his epic, heroic journey to save Gotham. The movies were faithful to the core ideas of the source material without being slavish to every little minute detail, and as a result they were able to connect with a huge audience while being a fresh, interesting interpretation of the mythos for the fans. I felt with BvS and fear with JL that we're using fanservice to attempt and paper over the cracks. While that might be enough for a lot of fans, that is never going to be enough to get those better reviews everyone seems to desperately want.

I also think one lesson they clearly missed was how powerful it can be to see just hero develop across a series of films when it's done well, with a vision. Hopefully they'll go back to focusing on the solo films after JL. Every indication at this point is that they'll be doing just that, which is fine by me.
 
To this day I have no idea how Terrio's script for BVS got a pass.

I guess everyone just figured "Hey he's an oscar winner" and didn't bother to question his assumed assumed genius.
 
It satisfied and far exceeded the accepted WB quota for po faced faux profundity.

In the first scene......they didn't bother to check beyond that.
 
To this day I have no idea how Terrio's script for BVS got a pass.

I guess everyone just figured "Hey he's an oscar winner" and didn't bother to question his assumed assumed genius.

Can't speak to the studio's perspective on this but that was definitely the prevailing attitude among fans. Terrio's name was used to immunize BvS against damn near any and all skepticism or criticism leading up to release. It's like they thought Oscar Winner Chris Terrio™, with his handful of writing credits, was the perfect counterbalance to Snyder's shortcomings. Funny that he hardly ever gets name-dropped anymore, even in the midst of all the dissertations written in defense of the movie.
 
To be fair I also bought into that. I was super skeptical about BvS right up until they brought Terrio onboard wherein I became more cautiously optimistic.
 
To be fair I also bought into that. I was super skeptical about BvS right up until they brought Terrio onboard wherein I became more cautiously optimistic.

Then you didn't buy into it, as any reasonable and prudent person shouldn't. It's fine to have your concerns assuaged when somebody talented is brought on board, but some people were taking it to the next level and acting like Terrio's involvement guaranteed a flawless film.
 
Didn't he write justice league? There isn't a thread about him. At least in the first three pages of the board.
 
You know, I still wonder how BvS would have turned out if they went with Goyer’s original script. I know Goyer has a LOT of shortcomings but I think that he probably wrote a more balanced script that featured Superman and Batman equally, versus Terrio’s “Batman with a Special Appearance by Superman Wherein Batman Kicks His ***” concept.
 
Goyer has his shortcomings and limitations but I feel he's underrated.
 
Goyer is kinda George Lucas

Both are good in coming up with stories but are pretty terrible when it comes to dialogue
 
MoS:
I liked MoS for the most part and was surprised at the backlash it recieved.

Few minor quibbles with movie nothing major:
Forced Ending Bad: Main thing I didn't like about it was the ending felt rushed and forced having all sent back to the phantom zone conveniently enough (not to mention with why would even bother doing their invasion in such a heavy handed manner when just a few of them). A second screenwriter should've polished up this area of the script I think. One thing Snyder did improve on was the 1 on 1 battle with Zod at the end that I thought was dramatic and interesting though (constant complaints about collateral damage I am still surprised by and don't agree with).

Expository Dialogue: Few minor quibbles on MoS expository dialogue durring a dramatic action scene like when Zod sheds his armor at the end or Faora-Ul talks about evolution (where'd she learn that concept?) while battling Superman could've been shed but their acting during this moment almost made me not realize dialogue unneeded.

Putting him at Newspaper at end was forced fan nod as well (know most not agree with this one).

Abyss of Perpetual Developmental Confusion:
I think Batman vs. Superman was essentially a movie in a different universe as MoS originally conceived as a planned trilogy of Superman films. Now the tonal shift where Batman's supposed to be completely different than the one in Batman vs. Superman 1 example of WB going back/forth on tone as well as characterization to an inappropriate degree for such an ambitious future film lineup. Now everything's getting butchered to such an extent I don't see how things can turn around except after another 3 years of films being developed until they've got some sort of rhythm going assuming they'll be able to get enough money to get to this point and if they do what's going to push them from not doing the same until well runs dry then try and alter?
 
Goyer is kinda George Lucas

Both are good in coming up with stories but are pretty terrible when it comes to dialogue

Yeah well, the BvS we got had a bad story AND bad dialogue so I’d probably have rolled the dice on Goyer’s version instead of going with Terrio’s steaming pile of waste.
 
Yeah well, the BvS we got had a bad story AND bad dialogue so I’d probably have rolled the dice on Goyer’s version instead of going with Terrio’s steaming pile of waste.

If only.
I trust automatically more someone who worked on comics.
 
They learned from it, they just learned the wrong lessons. Nolan's approach worked wonders for Batman but Snyder coming in and trying to ape that approach with the rest of the DC stable was a mistake.

That's exactly the problem with the DCEU because Snyder portrayed Superman incorrectly.
Superman is supposed to be the complete opposite of Batman as he was meant to be hopeful, optimistic, and full of light. The Christopher Reeve films captured Superman's characterization perfectly but somewhere along the way, Warner Bros. lost sight of who Superman was supposed to be so they decided to turn him into Ebenezer Scrooge with superpowers. That was definitely the wrong approach and worse, they killed him off too soon before he could have his own trilogy of films.

Snyder may know how to portray Batman but he doesn't know jacksquat about Superman.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"