The Dark Knight Rises I will answer this question one day. But not today.

[batman11]

Why would Batman kill a corrupt cop and gangsters, but let The Joker live? What reason did he have to kill Harvey Dent?

A guy who dresses up like a bat clearly has issues.

 

[souvlaki]

here's a question which non related but still bothers me anyway. When rachel was held and was about to blown up, she was trying to tell something to harvey about someone, the exact words if i remember correctly " alright, listen, some.....BOOOOOOOOM.." Anyone knows what she's trying to say?

I always assumed she was going to say, "Alright, listen. Someone is coming for me."

 

[Banana-Hotdog]

or "Alright, listen. Someone obviously made a mistake because we all know that the girl is the one who's supposed to get rescued."

 

[aandfrugby25]

im pretty sure it was "Alright listen ... gordon said that two cops were dead but which two cops Harvey.... WHICH TWO COPS!!"

 

[BestGirl]

The way I see it, "the five dead, two of them cops" adds up:

1.) Wuertz (Cop)
2.) Sal Maroni's Passenger (and if you argue that he only knocked the passenger unconscious, we can assume Dent murdered the bartender that served Wuertz (off-screen)).
3.) Sal Maroni's driver
4.) Sal Maroni himself
5.) Detective Ramirez (COP) (Again, Ramirez was NOT killed. The GCPD, however, have reason to believe that she was murdered since she was nowhere to be found. Dent specifically targeted Wuertz and Ramirez during the early rooftop scene, so Gordon could have assumed Dent got Ramirez after he finished Wuertz. This one's a bit vague but really it's the only plausible assumption IMO.)

I'd definitely like to see the issue come up in TDKR though.

I've never agreed with Ramirez being one of the possible five. She could only have been missing for a few hours at most and Gordon knows that Dent flips a coin to determine whether he'll kill his victims. At that point, there wasn't any convincing reason to assume she was dead, and not injured or hiding.

I figure the two cops are one of the following possibilities:

1. The two cops in the hospital, and Gordon doesn't realize that Wuertz has been killed. Yeah, it would be unrealistic for their bodies to have been dug up already but TDK wasn't all that realistic anyway. If their corpses were found intact with gunshot wounds matching the type of gun that Harvey's carrying, Gordon may have assumed Harvey killed them during his escape.

2. Wuertz and the black hospital cop. The white hospital cop was never shown to have been killed so he could have been working for the Joker and escaped from the hospital.

3. Wuertz and Maroni's bodyguard. This one's a stretch, but I was thinking that after Maroni told the cops where the Joker would be they may have given him a plainclothes officer to act a his bodyguard. We saw Harvey hit him with his gun but the blow could've killed him.

 

[Knight Rise]

perhaps the last person that they meant was Harvey Dent himself

 

[Polux]

Don´t forget that some other cops know about Harvey too; when Barbara calls Gordon to tell him "He´s got the kids", he asks who and then Harvey says "Hello Jim", to which he replies "Harvey?!", in that exact moment we can see at least 3 cops turning around with a clear "WTF?" look in their faces; so maybe they don´t know about what he did, but they do know something´s wrong.

That´s another thing, alongside the "5 dead" and people not buying the "Batman murderer" story that I think will be addressed in the movie.

I also think that (if he comes back) Engel will be publicly advocating for Batman´s innocense.

Polux

 

[Nave 'Torment']

It's Ramirez, the second cop's Ramirez, that's what Gordon would think. And it would still remain 5 when the blame shifts to Batman - the fifth is Harvey Dent himself (the second serviceman, if not cop altogether).

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Oh, and to keep consistent with the thread, yes I'm almost certain Nolan will be keeping this in mind when he makes the next film.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I've never agreed with Ramirez being one of the possible five. She could only have been missing for a few hours at most and Gordon knows that Dent flips a coin to determine whether he'll kill his victims. At that point, there wasn't any convincing reason to assume she was dead, and not injured or hiding.

I figure the two cops are one of the following possibilities:

1. The two cops in the hospital, and Gordon doesn't realize that Wuertz has been killed. Yeah, it would be unrealistic for their bodies to have been dug up already but TDK wasn't all that realistic anyway. If their corpses were found intact with gunshot wounds matching the type of gun that Harvey's carrying, Gordon may have assumed Harvey killed them during his escape.

2. Wuertz and the black hospital cop. The white hospital cop was never shown to have been killed so he could have been working for the Joker and escaped from the hospital.

3. Wuertz and Maroni's bodyguard. This one's a stretch, but I was thinking that after Maroni told the cops where the Joker would be they may have given him a plainclothes officer to act a his bodyguard. We saw Harvey hit him with his gun but the blow could've killed him.

But Gordon knew that the Joker exploded that hospital, he knew that the Joker was there because Engels got kidnapped. While we still may think that it was the second hospital guard, that's still not a 'cop' the way Ramirez is. I think she'll have a much more important role this time around. In Gotham Knight she was highly supportive of Batman, she'll be even more now.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I always assumed she was going to say, "Alright, listen. Someone is coming for me."

or "Alright, listen. Someone obviously made a mistake because we all know that the girl is the one who's supposed to get rescued."

im pretty sure it was "Alright listen ... gordon said that two cops were dead but which two cops Harvey.... WHICH TWO COPS!!"

Haha, nice timing guys.

Ponco, I think she was going to say it'd be Batman. But it doesn't really matter. I love how Nolan underplays his 'death scenes'. One of the biggest hassle I heard about Begins was how the Wayne shooting wasn't atmospheric enough. It's because the scenes weren't meant to be atmospheric. They weren't "dream shots" (though, of course, I'm sure Inception didn't help people who trouble with this), and anyway the sudden quality of those deaths (echoed by Ducard saying how "death does not wait for you to be ready") added that same sense of realism, the fact that we do leave with things unsaid, with ends that are instantaneous, I think they're brilliant, especially so for a blockbuster film. Rachel's death, even Harvey's, was no less 'sudden'. The same goes for both Ra'ses, these Two-Face victims, Surillo, and probably every other of Joker's victims. I don't know if it was consciously done, but it's really apparent.

 

[Two-Face]

What question was asked to Nolan?

 

[Polux]

What question was asked to Nolan?

"Where do you get those wonderful vests??"




Polux

 

[aandfrugby25]

Well im still holding out hope that their is a yet unknown victim whose loved one will be coming after Batman in DKR and nolan didnt want to give it away so that is why the non answer.

 

[BestGirl]

But Gordon knew that the Joker exploded that hospital, he knew that the Joker was there because Engels got kidnapped.

Yeah, but if the bodies had bullet wounds that matched the gun Harvey was carrying, Gordon's first assumption would be that Harvey did it. Later, he might sit back and think to himself that the Joker probably did it and then gave Harvey the same gun.

While we still may think that it was the second hospital guard, that's still not a 'cop' the way Ramirez is. I think she'll have a much more important role this time around. In Gotham Knight she was highly supportive of Batman, she'll be even more now.

I don't think they were hospital guards. I think they were cops who'd been sent to protect Dent's room.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Yeah, but if the bodies had bullet wounds that matched the gun Harvey was carrying, Gordon's first assumption would be that Harvey did it. Later, he might sit back and think to himself that the Joker probably did it and then gave Harvey the same gun.

There were two different guns, actually. The one that Joker killed the cop with was a silenced automatic pistol. He gave Harvey a revolver.

 

[Caped Crusader]

That's what I thought, because Batman did technically kill Harvey and if nothing else would have to have accept responsibility for that. And you can say that Harvey was in a way also a victim of Two-Face, as he basically destroyed himself. The other four would have been Maroni and his driver, Wuertz, and either Ramirez or the cop in Gotham General.

Glad I wasn't the only one.

 

[Wolverine1988]

It seemed to me that Dent KNOCKED OUT Maronis passenger not killed, i mean he didn't have enough time to kill him without having to use a his gun....It looked like he just knocked him out, unless he hit him hard enough with the gun that killed him.

Honestly we can speculate all we want, but i think Nolan messed up and thats why he plans on correcting it in this film imo.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Yeah, but if the bodies had bullet wounds that matched the gun Harvey was carrying, Gordon's first assumption would be that Harvey did it. Later, he might sit back and think to himself that the Joker probably did it and then gave Harvey the same gun.

I don't think they were hospital guards. I think they were cops who'd been sent to protect Dent's room.

I think I will let Pete answer your first point:

There were two different guns, actually. The one that Joker killed the cop with was a silenced automatic pistol. He gave Harvey a revolver.

As for the second, that's actually a good observation - one i missed You're right, they are more likely to be cops sent in to protect Dent. Anyway, those guns...

The one the Joker shoots down the guard with is a Glock 17 9mm, the same one he used during the bank heist, inside that truck during the chase, and on the Chechen when he burn's down all that cash. The one he hands over to Harvey is a S&W m64 stainless revolver, which Two-Face uses to kill these victims. So in order to trace the gun, we're looking for a S&W M64.

Interesting trivia - Harvey's shown to use a similar S&W (M36) when he's interrogating that lunatic. It's not the one he takes from that goon at the trial scene however.

We're good detectives aren't we?

 

[Nave 'Torment']

This is the murder weapon, used by Harvey "Two-Face".

This is a generic model of the Glock 17 that the Joker uses in most scenes, including the one he used to shoot down the guard. All we need to know now is if the bullets can be traced to these guns? My idea is a bit murky there. The Joker used a modified version of this.

 

[iamcitizen]

You guys are missing the even bigger plot hole:

How did Gordon know that Dent had killed anybody? Dent doesn't tell him. Gordon still thinks that Dent is a hostage ("Dent is in there, we have to save Dent!") right up until he gets the call from his wife. From Gordon's point of view, Dent disappears from the hospital and then reappears trying to kill Gordon's family. Gordon and Batman would have had no way of knowing that Dent had killed anybody in the meantime.

 

[childeroland]

When Gordon visits Harvey at the hospital, Dent expresses resentment and blames him for what's happened. If more people knew Dent felt that way and knew of his connection to Rachel, they might assume he went on a rampage after vanishing from the hospital. After all, that's when the possible "five dead" start disappearing, and they seem connected to the GCPD (the two cops) and the mob (Maroni, etc).

I wonder if the Chechen is one of the five.

 

[Mister H.]

edit

 

[Gianakin_]

Edit.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Ramirez really lucked out. With Dent dead, there's no one to implicate her in Rachel's abduction/murder.

Joker knows.