Infinity War "I Will Bathe The Starways In Your Blood!" The Thanos / Josh Brolin Thread - Part 1

[Aximili86]

As far as the poster who said Thanos is not far off from Palpatine

Jesus lol that is so ridiculously untrue

Of course it is, in the sense that his reasons don't matter. When all is said and done, he's still out there committing genocide to impress a chick who may or may not be a figment of his imagination.

Anything before that, interesting as it may be for us readers, still makes him no less of an irredeemably-evil bastard. This is a guy who adopts kids and tortures them endlessly to make them strong, this is a guy who's on a mission to extinguish life itself.

That's Schmidt-level territory.

 

[Panacea]

Yeah, but doing it for love is a lot more interesting and unique than doing it 'because the universe is out of balance'. His relationship with Death is one of the most interesting things about his character, you lose that and you lose a lot I think.

 

[jaqua99]

Of course it is, in the sense that his reasons don't matter. When all is said and done, he's still out there committing genocide to impress a chick who may or may not be a figment of his imagination.

Anything before that, interesting as it may be for us readers, still makes him no less of an irredeemably-evil bastard. This is a guy who adopts kids and tortures them endlessly to make them strong, this is a guy who's on a mission to extinguish life itself.

That's Schmidt-level territory.

You are talking from an action standpoint.

Palpatine is inherently evil, an epitome of darkness within a shakesperean context.

Thanos is a tragic villain. While he is necessarily irredeemable, he is still not anything like Palpatine as a character.

Man, assuming the Russos do him justice, a lot of you are in for a treat with this character.

Saying Thanos isn't redeemable, is saying Loki isnt redeemable. Doesnt make Loki like Palpatine.

Thanos is a character. Not a plot device of badass villainy like some of these people like to think.

Again, read Starlin's Thanos, the man who created Thanos.

Red Skull
Carnage
Norman Osbourne
Doom

Just a handful of characters inherently more "evil" than Thanos.

 

[jaqua99]

Yeah, but doing it for love is a lot more interesting and unique than doing it 'because the universe is out of balance'. His relationship with Death is one of the most interesting things about his character, you lose that and you lose a lot I think.

Doing it for love is still a minor part of Thanos' character.

Thanos' entire character is about finding himself, and to curb and justify his rationalizations about life, which stem from his child like emotions. The abstract concept of death is something that gives him meaning, and purpose and it fills this existential void and pain.

THIS is what people don't necessarily understand. Thanos' relationship with death isnt about loving a woman, it's about finding love in an essential universal abstract concept of depth, in order to give himself meaning.

And in a way, Adam Warlock serves as Thanos' rational mind from a narrative standpoint in Starlin's work.

Thanos is a beautifully tragic character. And he is VERY human and he is emotionally sick.

I think people will finally see this..how emotional he is.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

THIS is what people don't necessarily understand. Thanos' relationship with death isnt about loving a woman, it's about finding love in an essential universal abstract concept of depth, in order to give himself meaning.

The fact that Death manifests itself as a woman helps the reader/viewer connect with him though. Most men are attracted to women, so people can see where Thanos is coming from, and if the story conveys the fact that the woman he's in love with is actually a manifestation of death itself and not just a woman with a persona themed around death (like Hela), it'll help people grasp the fact that Thanos' love for Mistress Death is actually a love for death itself. In the comics, the fact that other human-like manifestations of abstract concepts like eternity, infinity, oblivian, entropy and others exist give more context to what death is.

 

[Filmfan93]

Sorry, guys, I am a non-CBM reader so I don't know what the comic-book personality of Thanos is.

But I am sure he will be one of the best film villains ever. Probably my most hyped villain right now!

 

[KaijuDude1992]

Yeah I'm not too familiar with all the comic-book stuff either, but I know whatever the Russo's do with the character will be for the best whether or not that includes Death.

 

[jaqua99]

The fact that Death manifests itself as a woman helps the reader/viewer connect with him though. Most men are attracted to women, so people can see where Thanos is coming from, and if the story conveys the fact that the woman he's in love with is actually a manifestation of death itself and not just a woman with a persona themed around death (like Hela), it'll help people grasp the fact that Thanos' love for Mistress Death is actually a love for death itself. In the comics, the fact that other human-like manifestations of abstract concepts like eternity, infinity, oblivian, entropy and others exist give more context to what death is.

Oh without a doubt. You are hitting the nail on the head, really. I'm speaking more on a conceptual level.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

Sorry, guys, I am a non-CBM reader so I don't know what the comic-book personality of Thanos is.

But I am sure he will be one of the best film villains ever. Probably my most hyped villain right now!

Yeah I'm not too familiar with all the comic-book stuff either, but I know whatever the Russo's do with the character will be for the best whether or not that includes Death.

The best comparison I can think of is a mix between Kingpin from Netflix's Daredevil and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen.

 

[Filmfan93]

The best comparison I can think of is a mix between Kingpin from Netflix's Daredevil and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen.

Both villains which I really like!

 

[jaqua99]

The best comparison I can think of is a mix between Kingpin from Netflix's Daredevil and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen.

Very nice

 

[Wildcard]

The best comparison I can think of is a mix between Kingpin from Netflix's Daredevil and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen.

That's a nice comparison/mix, though I would say he leans closer to the former than the latter given how regal he can be in handling certain situations and then can completely fly off the handle and completely lose his **** at other times.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Having watched Ragnorak again last night, it was crazy (in a good way) how powerful Hela came across at times. I really hope Thanos makes her look like a ***** cat though, even before he gets the gauntlet.

 

[Levsky]

What really makes me believe that they will include Death in some form in Thanos' story are these little teases we've got already. We could argue that the line ("to challenge them is to court Death") in post-credits scene in Avengers was only an easter egg and not foreshadowing. However, there is still this particular line in SDCC footage said by a woman (perhaps Mantis, her voice seems similar): "Death follows him like a shadow..." which by people unfamiliar with Thanos/Death relationship might be seen simply as a metaphore for his murderous actions. And there can obviously be much more to that. I'm really curious which way they choose.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

What really makes me believe that they will include Death in some form in Thanos' story are these little teases we've got already. We could argue that the line ("to challenge them is to court Death") in post-credits scene in Avengers was only an easter egg and not foreshadowing. However, there is still this particular line in SDCC footage said by a woman (perhaps Mantis, her voice seems similar): "Death follows him like a shadow..." which by people unfamiliar with Thanos/Death relationship might be seen simply as a metaphore for his murderous actions. And there can obviously be much more to that. I'm really curious which way they choose.

There's also the fact that Feige was asked point blank if Death was in the movie and he said "Thanos' motives will be similar to what they are in 'The Infinity Gauntlet' in a lot of ways". I can't really interpret that as anything other than "Yes, but we can't tell you that". If Death isn't in the movie, why not just say "No"? A character not being in the movie isn't a spoiler. They straight up said Adam Warlock won't be in it.

 

[MbJ]

Promo art.

 

[Finarfiniel]

There's also the fact that Feige was asked point blank if Death was in the movie and he said "Thanos' motives will be similar to what they are in 'The Infinity Gauntlet' in a lot of ways". I can't really interpret that as anything other than "Yes, but we can't tell you that". If Death isn't in the movie, why not just say "No"? A character not being in the movie isn't a spoiler. They straight up said Adam Warlock won't be in it.

That's exactly why I don't think we're going to see Death as a character in IW, because Marvel has literally no reason to keep that a secret whatsover. Her involvement is not a spoiler to anyone that knows much about Marvel comics and the GA pretty much don't care either way, so what on earth would cause them to keep the character so hush hush? There has been no glimpse of her whatsoever in any trailer or promotional items, toys, merchandise, e.t.c, even though we have plenty on the Black Order and the Outriders, e.t.c. There has also been zero news on casting (or even an undisclosed female role that could be her), despite principal photography on both IW and A4 being wrapped up already. Also, Feige said Thanos' motives will be similar, not exactly the same.

I'm still more than 70% convinced that they're going to use Hela to fulfill a similar (note: similar, not exactly the same) role. After the end of Ragnarok and her fate being kinda up in the air, her suddenly showing up in IW would potentially be a big 'holy ****' moment for the audience who presumed her dead and gone and would go a long way to explaining why Marvel seem to be shrouding this area of the story in so much apparent secrecy. Both Kevin Feige and Cate Blanchett have been asked directly if Hela is taking Death's place in IW and neither of them gave a straight answer, just vague 'you'll have to wait and see' kinda answers. Like you point out, if Hela's not in IW at all, why dodge the question? Why not just confirm that she's not in it? That's not a spoiler, all it would do is put to rest a rumour.

I may be completely and utterly wrong and I recognise that a lot of die-hard comic book purists may not like it, but I can't shake the feeling that using Hela has been the plan all along, and I can definitely see it working if written well.

 

[Finarfiniel]

Promo art.

So awesome. Proxima!

 

[MbJ]

S.H. Figuarts Thanos

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

That's exactly why I don't think we're going to see Death as a character in IW, because Marvel has literally no reason to keep that a secret whatsover. Her involvement is not a spoiler to anyone that knows much about Marvel comics and the GA pretty much don't care either way, so what on earth would cause them to keep the character so hush hush?

There can be many reasons to keep it a secret. For instance, I've had the theory that throughout (or maybe even just near the beginning of) the movie, Thanos is shown talking to someone either off screen or in the shadows, and after he gets the final Infinity Stone near the end of the movie, the final scene is him approaching Death and that is the first time we see her. Then in Avengers 4, it's explained who she is and Thanos' relationship to her in flashbacks. That's just a theory, but if it did happen that would be a good reason to keep her a secret. It wouldn't be a huge surprise to comic fans, but there are some secrets that need to be kept for narrative reasons. There would definitely be a bunch of "Who that person at the end of the movie was explained" articles and videos, similar to when Thanos was first shown at the end of The Avengers and a bunch of discussion on social media about what it means.

I'm still more than 70% convinced that they're going to use Hela to fulfill a similar (note: similar, not exactly the same) role. After the end of Ragnarok and her fate being kinda up in the air, her suddenly showing up in IW would potentially be a big 'holy ****' moment for the audience who presumed her dead and gone and would go a long way to explaining why Marvel seem to be shrouding this area of the story in so much apparent secrecy. Both Kevin Feige and Cate Blanchett have been asked directly if Hela is taking Death's place in IW and neither of them gave a straight answer, just vague 'you'll have to wait and see' kinda answers. Like you point out, if Hela's not in IW at all, why dodge the question? Why not just confirm that she's not in it? That's not a spoiler, all it would do is put to rest a rumour.

I may be completely and utterly wrong and I recognise that a lot of die-hard comic book purists may not like it, but I can't shake the feeling that using Hela has been the plan all along, and I can definitely see it working if written well.

I also thought Hela was going to take the role of Death for about half a year, but after seeing Ragnarok and thinking about it for a while, it startd making less and less sense. Now I'm leaning more towards Death actually being in the movie for a multitude of reasons. I'd go more in depth, but the movie is only less than two months away, so I don't really wanna get too deep into this when I'll find out soon enough.

 

[Finarfiniel]

There can be many reasons to keep it a secret. For instance, I've had the theory that throughout (or maybe even just near the beginning of) the movie, Thanos is shown talking to someone either off screen or in the shadows, and after he gets the final Infinity Stone near the end of the movie, the final scene is him approaching Death and that is the first time we see her. Then in Avengers 4, it's explained who she is and Thanos' relationship to her in flashbacks. That's just a theory, but if it did happen that would be a good reason to keep her a secret. It wouldn't be a huge surprise to comic fans, but there are some secrets that need to be kept for narrative reasons. There would definitely be a bunch of "Who that person at the end of the movie was explained" articles and videos, similar to when Thanos was first shown at the end of The Avengers and a bunch of discussion on social media about what it means.

Eh. Sorry but none of that even begins to really explain why they'd bother to go to such lengths to keep the involvement of a character like Mistress Death such a huge secret when they have zero real reason to. I doubt having a few articles on the internet explaining who she is to the uninitiated would be good enough justification for them when there's already going to be so much to talk about following IW. And again, why the zero casting news? Will she be an entirely CG/motion capture character? What would be the point of that when she usually manifests as a humanoid woman anyway? On the other hand, Ragnarok reshoots were ongoing in Atlanta at the exact same time that IW was shooting on the same soundstages, so Blanchett had ample time to film some material for IW if that indeed is where they've decided to go. She was also spotted around the Atlanta area (and was shooting another movie there) at the same time as A4 was filming, so same deal again.

I also thought Hela was going to take the role of Death for about half a year, but after seeing Ragnarok and thinking about it for a while, it startd making less and less sense. Now I'm leaning more towards Death actually being in the movie for a multitude of reasons. I'd go more in depth, but the movie is only less than two months away, so I don't really wanna get too deep into this when I'll find out soon enough.

Admittedly, when I first saw Ragnarok I initially reached the same conclusion as you. But since then I've thought and thought about it and I've swung a complete 180 again. If they want to make Hela being in IW a surprise, of course they're not going to hint to it in Ragnarok. They want the audience to presume that Hela is dead and gone, that's the whole point.

I don't know, it all makes way too much sense to me, the pieces fit together a little too smoothly and there have been a few too many little hints from many different sources for it all to be one giant coincidence. I keep meaning to make a post on this board setting out all the evidence I've saved supporting the Hela theory, but I never get round to it. And like you say, there's probably little point now anyway seeing as we're so close to the movie so we'll know soon enough and it will all be moot.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

1. We know from the Infinity War trailer that Thanos wants to "balance the universe", which is the same as the comic story. Hela's goal in Ragnarok was nothing like this, before or after she was locked away. Hela was clearly shown as an evil being that wanted conquest via killing. Death is not evil, she/it is just opposed to life and feels there is too much life in the universe, which makes it unbalanced. It's possible that the Russos and the writers are going for a different angle, but 1) They stated that Thanos' motivations would be similar to what they are in The Infinity Gauntlet and 2) Jim Starlin said fans wouldn't be disappointed.

2. Hela's personality is too lively. The thing that makes Thanos' love for death compelling is that she's mysterious, quiet, an abstract concept that simply takes on the appearance of a human woman/grim reaper and also constantly rejects Thanos. I can't see Hela replacing Death unless she is also in love with Thanos, but that's such a departure. If Hela does actually reject him, nobody is going to feel for Thanos, because he'd be in love with a loud mouthed, evil b**** and the rejection would make Thanos look pathetic. Death rejects him without saying a word, which makes his insanity shine. He stands there screaming at her telling her he'll do anything for her and she just looks away. I can't see Hela doing that, unless they completely change her personality and motivation.

3. When would Thanos have met Hela and fallen in love with her? Hela went from being with Odin all the time to being locked away to taking over Asgard to dying. At what point did she give him his task? And if he gave himself the task, what does Hela have to do with anything? Why did she walk right past the Space Stone in Ragnarok? This is one of the reasons I think getting a character the audience doesn't know works better. People act like using Hela would make it simpler, but it would actually be MORE complicated than just using Death.

 

[Finarfiniel]

1. We know from the Infinity War trailer that Thanos wants to "balance the universe", which is the same as the comic story. Hela's goal in Ragnarok was nothing like this, before or after she was locked away. Hela was clearly shown as an evil being that wanted conquest via killing. Death is not evil, she/it is just opposed to life and feels there is too much life in the universe, which makes it unbalanced. It's possible that the Russos and the writers are going for a different angle, but 1) They stated that Thanos' motivations would be similar to what they are in The Infinity Gauntlet and 2) Jim Starlin said fans wouldn't be disappointed.

2. Hela's personality is too lively. The thing that makes Thanos' love for death compelling is that she's mysterious, quiet, an abstract concept that simply takes on the appearance of a human woman/grim reaper and also constantly rejects Thanos. I can't see Hela replacing Death unless she is also in love with Thanos, but that's such a departure. If Hela does reject him, nobody is going to feel for Thanos if he's in love with the loud mouthed b**** that is Hela. Death rejects him without saying a word, which makes his insanity shine. He stands there screaming at her telling her he'll do anything for her and she just looks away. I can't see Hela doing that.

3. When would Thanos have met her and fallen in love with her? Hela went from being with Odin all the time to being locked away to taking over Asgard to dying. At what point did she give him his task? And if he gave himself the task, what does Hela have to do with anything? Why did she walk right past the Space Stone in Ragnarok? This is one of the reasons I think getting a character the audience doesn't know works better. People act like using Hela would make it simpler, but it would actually be MORE complicated than just using Death.

I get from your points that you believe that MCU Thanos is going to be identical to the comics character in every way, but I just realistically don't see that happening. There isn't a single character in the MCU to date that is completely identical to their comics counterpart, especially the villains. Loki, Hela, Killmonger, Zemo, e.t.c are all villains that diverge quite significantly from their comics counterparts in backstory and motivations to various extents, because the MCU have to adapt them in a way that fits in with this universe and everything that has come before it. Key word here is 'similar'. Look at the dictionary definition of the word similar - 'having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.' Jim Starlin can still feel that the writers have done Thanos justice by capturing the general spirit and essence of the character rather than doing a literal page to screen adaptation of him, I think even he would likely realise that it's just not feasible or practical to adapt Thanos completely accurately from comic book to movie, which are two very different mediums. Thanos waxing lyrical to a mute female in a hooded robe who is literally Death itself in disguise works perfectly within the greater context of a comic book, but will it necessarily work or translate well to live action? Especially in a movie that is going to have precious little time to develop the multitudes of characters it has to juggle. Or would it perhaps be better to put Thanos with a character that actually has a personality and responds back, and is more of a foil for him in that regard? I don't get the whole, 'Thanos and Hela never could have met' thing either. Comics Thanos is immortal and thousands of years old so MCU Thanos feasibly can be too. Hela travelled across the Nine Realms and quite possibly the rest of the cosmos with her father during their conquests, so they easily could have met or come into contact with each other prior to her imprisonment.

For all we know, we could be coming at this from completely the wrong angle. What if we're both right in some way? What if Hela did really die at the end of Ragnarok and underwent some form of transformation? What if Death itself then decides to use Hela's physical form as an avatar? That way it kinda explains all of the above, including the no casting news and why there are so many subtle little clues to be found about Blanchett being in IW? Who the hell knows? I can't wait to find out though. t:

 

[jaqua99]

I get from your points that you believe that MCU Thanos is going to be identical to the comics character in every way, but I just realistically don't see that happening. There isn't a single character in the MCU to date that is completely identical to their comics counterpart, especially the villains. Loki, Hela, Killmonger, Zemo, e.t.c are all villains that diverge quite significantly from their comics counterparts in backstory and motivations to various extents, because the MCU have to adapt them in a way that fits in with this universe and everything that has come before it. Key word here is 'similar'. Look at the dictionary definition of the word similar - 'having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.' Jim Starlin can still feel that the writers have done Thanos justice by capturing the general spirit and essence of the character rather than doing a literal page to screen adaptation of him, I think even he would likely realise that it's just not feasible or practical to adapt Thanos completely accurately from comic book to movie, which are two very different mediums. Thanos waxing lyrical to a mute female in a hooded robe who is literally Death itself in disguise works perfectly within the greater context of a comic book, but will it necessarily work or translate well to live action? Especially in a movie that is going to have precious little time to develop the multitudes of characters it has to juggle. Or would it perhaps be better to put Thanos with a character that actually has a personality and responds back, and is more of a foil for him in that regard? I don't get the whole, 'Thanos and Hela never could have met' thing either. Comics Thanos is immortal and thousands of years old so MCU Thanos feasibly can be too. Hela travelled across the Nine Realms and quite possibly the rest of the cosmos with her father during their conquests, so they easily could have met or come into contact with each other prior to her imprisonment.

For all we know, we could be coming at this from completely the wrong angle. What if we're both right in some way? What if Hela did really die at the end of Ragnarok and underwent some form of transformation? What if Death itself then decides to use Hela's physical form as an avatar? That way it kinda explains all of the above, including the no casting news and why there are so many subtle little clues to be found about Blanchett being in IW? Who the hell knows? I can't wait to find out though. t:

The thng is though, Brolin and the Russos have said how deep of a character Thanos is.

However MOST importantly, Jim Starlin has said he is satisfied with what they do with Thanos and that Thanos fans should be happy with this.

Now, I am not even talking about Hela here, just Thanos and his personality /existential drive. If you don't know, Jim Starlin created Thanos, fanboys over his own character, and wrote the best versions of Thanos-the interpretations we are talking about.

I know movies are different, but signs are pointing to Thanos-personality/character wise- being pretty close to comic book accurate.

I know you havent read much comics and much Thanos, but once you do, it really is kind of crucial to do him right, and not taking influence from his comic counter part is sort of dropping the ball.

It would be like taking away what makes Captain America Captain America. Most of these characters HAVE stayed trued to the essence of their comic counter parts.

Starlin loathes Marvel and has openly slandered them as he is very protective over Thanos. If he is happy and says Thanos fans will be happy, we are getting a comic-book like Thanos. Starlin isnt one to just butter them up.

Would also like to just add...

We meet yet again Fin The wheel keeps on turning.

I am.going to toss something out of left field your way...

How is your day?

 

[markjoedelonge]