I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[SwordOfMorning]

A very suped up version of TLH's twist or her being Harvey's Lady Macbeth strike me as the most likely. Think people are really overthinking about "twists". Wouldn't be surprised by or really mind a variation on some of the Earth One Harvey stuff, provided Harvey is an actual character who still has an engaging and tragic arc rather than just a one-dimensional prick. God, Geoff Johns sucks.

 

[Boom]

Lady Macbeth is a really good analogy. I like that a lot. Even more if she's the reason he ends up getting disfigured.

 

[Venom 1988]

God, Geoff Johns sucks

For what it's worth his Ghost Machine books are pretty good lol.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

For what it's worth his Ghost Machine books are pretty good lol.

Geoff Johns has original creations!?

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

Another confirmation.

 

[Hurm...]

I don't think Reeves will do a Two Face origin story in the second film of his Batman series. It's just too close to TDK.

 

[Venom 1988]

Geoff Johns has original creations!?
View attachment 158369

It's true. I got burnt out by most of Johns work in the last 15 years If you told me 5 years ago one of my favorite ongoing comics was a book by him with Brian Hitch co-writing and drawing, I'd laugh.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I don't think Reeves will do a Two Face origin story in the second film of his Batman series. It's just too close to TDK.

It’s not. All villains are in their infancy, but there’s more than one way to tell a Two-Face story. Matt will do what makes sense for his saga.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

There will inevitably be parallels with TDK because it’s the same source material, but there’s a million ways to do Dent. Plus, by the time this movie comes out TDK will be almost twenty years old - two full decades since the character was on screen.

 

[BobJM]

Tom Pelphrey would also be a good Harvey

 

[BigBatTheory]

What do you guys think about Harvey Dent having spent time in Arkham, or under the care of Dr. Arkham/Hugo Strange in his youth, and his DID alternate was intentionally corrupted and made more violent by the doctor? He could almost be like a sleeper agent or something lol. Like maybe it's a bit silly but it's also a somewhat less problematic representation of DID since it would acknowledge that those with the condition aren't inherently violent. Apparently Harvey was put in Arkham by his father in N52 so there is some comic precedence for the connection. Could also explain Harvey and Dr. Arkham having somewhat smaller roles than Gilda, if Harvey is missing/awol from a mental break and is like the main suspect in some killings, and we only learn the Arkham connection later in the investigation as Bruce learns about his history of mental illness and time spent in institutions and confronts the Dr. about it. Definitely fits with the whole The Parallax View theory.

 

[J.Drangal]

I enjoy reading all these theories; speculating about these films is the most fun part of the wait and the reason why I joined this board in the first place. It's been a long time since the threads have been this lively, and it feels good!

Now, regarding everything that has been said in the last few pages, a lot of it seems interesting to me and probably on the right track, but I wonder... If we can assume that Bruce Wayne will appear a little more and that the film will probably explore his family's past further, in a story involving mainly corrupt institutions and/or the Dent family, where does Batman really fit in?

What I mean is that if a comic book like Year One can do without a colourful villain, this is a big Hollywood production: I can't imagine them doing without one for a multitude of reasons. Just as The Batman had some spectacular murders committed by the Riddler, this film needs an eccentric character to put on a show.

Assuming Harvey won't transform until at least the second half of the film, either a villain has yet to be announced, or maybe Dent Sr. or Gilda are also someone else...

No?

 

[WayneMB]

There will inevitably be parallels with TDK because it’s the same source material, but there’s a million ways to do Dent. Plus, by the time this movie comes out TDK will be almost twenty years old - two full decades since the character was on screen.

jesus christ. i didn't even clock it. 20 years is mad

yeah we need joker soon, idc what anybody says

 

[Lily Adler]

Geoff Johns has original creations!?
View attachment 158369

He had a good Green Lantern run and DC was desperate okay.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think Reeves will do a Two Face origin story in the second film of his Batman series. It's just too close to TDK.

I agree with this in the sense that doing "promising new DA flies too close to the sun in trying to take down the mob with Batman and Gordon and has a tragic downfall" won't be the way to go. I think that really would just be too similar to do that arc again as the spine of the story in the second movie.

I personally am really liking the idea of Dent being missing and/or a suspect as the jumping off point though. I think that'd be a very fresh take on it. I think there's something to be said about inverting the whole thing, respecting the audiences' familiarity with the character and using that to tell a very different story about Dent and using that as the lens to explore the bigger mystery.

 

[Boom]

Nolan had a very singular take on Harvey Dent that dealt more with concepts of love, trust, betrayal, loss, grief, and justice. More importantly, the character's role in The Dark Knight was specifically designed to serve Bruce Wayne's character arc. And yeah, he wasn't Two-Face for long.

Meanwhile, Burton's Dent was a minor supporting character and Schumacher's Dent was an auxiliary villain that leaned into the character's campy MO from the early comics. Neither had anything more than surface-level development.

We have yet to see Harvey Dent on the big screen with a focus on his mental illness, DID, and abusive upbringing. There's a complex psychological study there that is absolutely ripe with storytelling potential - especially if it has the opportunity to develop over the course of two films. Setting aside the fact the character has been adapted twice before, he's really the perfect fit for what Reeves is trying to do.

 

[Lily Adler]

Nolan had a very singular take on Harvey Dent that dealt more with concepts of love, trust, betrayal, loss, grief, and justice. More importantly, the character's role in The Dark Knight was specifically designed to serve Bruce Wayne's character arc.

Meanwhile, Burton's Dent was a minor supporting character and Schumacher's Dent was an auxiliary villain that leaned into the character's campy MO from the early comics. Neither had anything more than surface-level development.

Nobody has yet adapted Harvey Dent to the big screen with a focus on his mental illness, DOD, and abusive upbringing. There's a complex psychological study here that is absolutely ripe for the sort of story Reeves and Tomlin are trying to tell.

Harvey has a Department of Defense?

 

[Boom]

Harvey has a Department of Defense?

Damn it.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Nolan had a very singular take on Harvey Dent that dealt more with concepts of love, trust, betrayal, loss, grief, and justice. More importantly, the character's role in The Dark Knight was specifically designed to serve Bruce Wayne's character arc.

Meanwhile, Burton's Dent was a minor supporting character and Schumacher's Dent was an auxiliary villain that leaned into the character's campy MO from the early comics. Neither had anything more than surface-level development.

We have yet to see Harvey Dent on the big screen with a focus on his mental illness, DID, and abusive upbringing. There's a complex psychological study there that is absolutely ripe with storytelling potential - especially if it has the opportunity to develop over the course of two films. Setting aside the fact the character has been adapted twice before, he's really the perfect fit for what Reeves is trying to do.

Not to beat a dead horse because I've made this point a million times: but I think the DID stuff is a nonstarter. Even if you ignore how that it's a deeply problematic portrayal of a real mental illness in a way that feels dated and gross, it's also incredibly lame and corny. Is there a single dumber and cheesier concept in a "thriller" than split personalities or any derivation thereof? It just makes me think of the screenplay the dumb twin in Adaptation writes. It strikes me as fundamentally less interesting than just giving Harvey a character arc where he falls apart from a mixture of tragedy and his own personal failings - which, admittedly, is the plot of The Dark Knight but the devil is in the details.

I overall entirely agree with your point. Simply by bringing his whole family into the fray and centring it around that you're immediately changing the game.

 

[Lily Adler]

Damn it.

 

[Boom]

Not to beat a dead horse because I've made this point a million times: but I think the DID stuff is a nonstarter. Even if you ignore how that it's a deeply problematic portrayal of a real mental illness in a way that feels dated and gross, it's also incredibly lame and corny. Is there a single dumber and cheesier concept in a "thriller" than split personalities or any derivation there of? It just makes me think of the screenplay the dumb twin in Adaptation writes. It strikes me as fundamentally less interesting than just giving Harvey a character arc where he falls apart from a mixture of tragedy and his own personal failings - which, admittedly, is the plot of The Dark Knight but the devil is in the details.

I overall entirely agree with your point. Simply by bringing his whole family into the fray and centring it around that you're immediately changing the game.

I think there's a way to handle the concept that isn't problematic (unlike Moon Knight), but fair point. I still believe some exploration of mental illness would be interesting to see and I am personally hoping for that. If not DID, then maybe PTSD or dissociative rage rooted in trauma from familial abuse. Something that has diminished his capacity to make individual decisions. But again, I appreciate what you're saying. If not executed carefully, you risk vilifying people that suffer from these things. We already got a taste of that with Reeves' disfigured Joker.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I think there's a way to handle the concept that isn't problematic (unlike Moon Knight), but fair point. I still believe some exploration of mental illness would be interesting to see and I am personally hoping for that. If not DID, then maybe PTSD or dissociative rage rooted in trauma from familial abuse. Something that has diminished his capacity to make individual decisions. But again, I appreciate what you're saying. If not executed carefully, you risk vilifying people that suffer from these things. We already got a taste of that with Reeves' disfigured Joker.

Yeah, I think we've hit our limit on "the villain is a ****ed up weirdo with birth defects" before we start entering Ian Fleming territory. Would be fun to have something like Earth One Croc to balance that out. Not that I'm terribly bothered by Penguin/Joker or anything, it would just be better if it didn't become A Thing.

There is absolutely a nuanced, interesting way to handle it. I have zero issue with Harvey being mentally ill, I actually even think there's ways to work with some real DID traits regarding disassociation and Harvey having a side to him that developed to protect himself as a kid that comes out sometimes - I'm just going to cringe myself to death if Harvey is doing full on Jekyll & Hyde I AM A DIFFERENT PERSON NOW I AM BIG BAD HARV DIE James McAvoy Split scenes.

Disassociation in general would be interesting to explore with him. Honestly, I could see the DID stuff being used as a fake out with him being gaslit into thinking he was committing murders when it's actually Gilda? Or something like that, but actually good because Matt and Mattson are better writers than me?

 

[Boom]

Yeah, I think we've hit our limit on "the villain is a ****ed up weirdo with birth defects" before we start entering Ian Fleming territory. Would be fun to have something like Earth One Croc to balance that out. Not that I'm terribly bothered by Penguin/Joker or anything, it would just be better if it didn't become A Thing.

There is absolutely a nuanced, interesting way to handle it. I have zero issue with Harvey being mentally ill, I actually even think there's ways to work with some real DID traits regarding disassociation and Harvey having a side to him that developed to protect himself as a kid that comes out sometimes - I'm just going to cringe myself to death if Harvey is doing full on Jekyll & Hyde I AM A DIFFERENT PERSON NOW I AM BIG BAD HARV DIE James McAvoy Split scenes.

Disassociation in general would be interesting to explore with him. Honestly, I could see the DID stuff being used as a fake out with him being gaslit into thinking he was committing murders when it's actually Gilda? Or something like that, but actually good because Matt and Mattson are better writers than me?