The Dark Knight Rises Improving Fight Scenes

[Crook]

Highly doubtful, yes, but you don't know this dude (I also said he didn't get all ten of them down). The Hulk practically pales in comparison to this man. He's trained his body to an insane level. He used to put pollen all over his feet before sparring, and during an entire match, you'd swear he didn't even touch you with any kicks during the match. Afterward, he'd bring you into a room with a black light, and you'd be covered in glowing footprints.

This guy isn't your typical "Crazy old martial arts master". He is literally one of the best martial artists you'd ever meet. Hell, his current instructor (who is apparently one of the world's best sword-training instructors) has never taken more than ten students at a time, and will only replace a student if he/she passes away or quits, for whatever reason. He was so impressed by the instructor I was talking about that he broke his own rule and took him as an eleventh student.

So, no, again, I'm not joking.

Not doubting the man's skill, I'll take your word for it. But in circumstances such as that, I would have to see it to believe it. I honestly just do not think it's possible for any one man to take on 10 simultaneous opponents, all attacking him concurrently. That's an average of 2.5 opponents, per limb....and that's assuming he's somehow found a way not to spare one for balance.

I wouldn't mind a superfluous high kick or an acrobatic flourish thrown in at an appropriate moment (a swift kick to the head is remarkably demoralising to an untrained opponent), but keep it 'real', keep it gritty - all the while showing us that Batman is one of the best fighters in the world.

But what i do wanna see is Batman doing more...well, Batman stuff in the fights. Using his evironments, using the darkness, using the cape - I mean, i loved TDK and all, but in all the fights (well the garage, party and club fights) Batman just...appeared...and started fighting.

Agreed. I don't think any film has truly captured Batman's fighting style on-screen yet. It's one thing to depict Batman taking down thugs. We all know he's capable. It's a completely another thing to actually direct it with finesse. Granted, it's hard enough to balance superfluous moves with gritty realities of fighting in film. Even harder when you're challenged with a restrictive suit made of nearly hundred pounds of rubber...and this isn't even accounting for the large cape you have to keep wary of.

I've pretty much accepted that at least in this franchise, I won't ever be pleased with the fighting, be it the style, or because the current suits do not allow much freedom even if they wanted to incorporate it. A few years down the line, though, it should be technically feasible. I can't help but look at the recent Arkham Asylum video game, and how utterly bad-ass Batman looks there when he takes on thugs. Such grace, but brutal at the same time. That's similar to how I'd like to see him incorporated. As the saying goes, "...next time".

 

[ChickenScratch]

There's no "secret power". This isn't one of those dudes who goes on T.V. claiming he can blast you with Chi energy from across a room. Those guys do crack me up, however.

Who is this guy, maybe I know him. I've been in karate for 23 years and hold black belts in 3 styles (Seido, Kyokushin, Choi Kwang Do) and many of my friends are martial artists from all over the world. Unless we have a name I'll consider this a fake.

 

[Mantis Rapture]

Not doubting the man's skill, I'll take your word for it. But in circumstances such as that, I would have to see it to believe it. I honestly just do not think it's possible for any one man to take on 10 simultaneous opponents, all attacking him concurrently. That's an average of 2.5 opponents, per limb....and that's assuming he's somehow found a way not to spare one for balance.

I'm not backing up this guys story, cos until i hear a name about this phenominal martial arts teacher, i don't believe it.

But...it's definitly possible for 1 man to take on 10 guys. 10 guys cannot attack you all at the same time, and if they did, their limbs would be all over each other, getting mixed up, hitting each other. Just imagine 10 guys all trying to pick up a football all at the same time - it'd just turn into a big heap of men.

You get 10 guys together like that, in a fight, and pack mentality takes over. If you were the victim in this thing, you'ld specificly start taking out certain guys -, the big ones, the ones instigating the fight, the 'leaders' of the pack - with everything you've got - this would demoralise the others, who probably wouldn't be fighting without these other guys egging them on.

And it sounds strange, but in a situation like this, getting yourself backed up into a corner would work to your advantage. There's no attacks from behined, you can see all your opponants, and you've 'funnelled' them towards you - you'ld only have 3 or 4 people directly in front of you instead of 10 surrounding you. It's a dangerous choice to make, as there's no chance of escape, but there's more chance of you taking some of these guys down with you this way.

I've never fought against 10 people by myself, but me and a friend have fought against 9 drunken, angry men. We didn't come out unscathed, by any means, but we finished the fight, and we didn't have to put them all down, either - just a few of them, to show the rest what they were getting into. Any mob of men is filled with cowards, that's why they're in a mob. Take down the leaders and the cowards back down. Or, you know, pull out a knife and stab you - this is why i don't mess about fighting anymore. Welcome to England.

Also, I have seen 1 guy take on 16 men before - although those 16 men were all walking off of a coach, and he was banging them out 1 by 1 as they got off the coach - the other 20 guys on the coach decided not to get off. Probably the funniest thing i've ever seen in my enitre life.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I did a 50 man kumite in Kyokushin in preparation for my 100 man kumite next year that goes with my 3rd degree black belt. It's pretty much what it sounds like, non stop 100 guys and you have to win all the fights so it is possible. I've not worked my way up to that yet, but the 50 took me 3 hours. Clips from our current grandmaster's 100 man kumite - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hpNixMscpI

Fact is though, 10 at a time is a stretch considering you can only be attacked from 4 sides at a single time. Cardio wise and skill wise you could fight as many people as are thrown at you if your heart and legs hold up. Just not at the same time.

 

[Piuchén]

I did a 50 man kumite in Kyokushin in preparation for my 100 man kumite next year that goes with my 3rd degree black belt. It's pretty much what it sounds like, non stop 100 guys and you have to win all the fights so it is possible. I've not worked my way up to that yet, but the 50 took me 3 hours. Clips from our current grandmaster's 100 man kumite - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hpNixMscpI

Fact is though, 10 at a time is a stretch considering you can only be attacked from 4 sides at a single time. Cardio wise and skill wise you could fight as many people as are thrown at you if your heart and legs hold up. Just not at the same time.

Kyokushin is a great style but as grappler lover with a very basic striking experience I still don"t believe 1 guy take 10 at the same time in a real fight unless...

1- The agressor are the most stupid gang in the world, they are drunk or they fight like Curly, Larry and Moe.

2-The guy is definily awesome in combat skills and much better than Batman himself.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I didnt say 1 guy can take on 10 at a time. Reread what I said, the 100 man kumite, or what I faced the 50 man kumite is one at a time.

 

[youngbat]

I'd like Nolan to show what getting hit hard really looks like. So If Batman takes on X no. of guys, show us what it feels like to be right in there, Say a guy gets a head butt in the nose, what would the reaction be in real life? i.e. a real fight, not an "action scene".

 

[Piuchén]

I didnt say 1 guy can take on 10 at a time. Reread what I said, the 100 man kumite, or what I faced the 50 man kumite is one at a time.

I know you didn"t say that I was just contiuning with the debate.

Youngbat;I think he showed that in some scenes but do it always is impossible.

 

[nathaniel]

I'd like Nolan to show what getting hit hard really looks like. So If Batman takes on X no. of guys, show us what it feels like to be right in there, Say a guy gets a head butt in the nose, what would the reaction be in real life? i.e. a real fight, not an "action scene".

Its impossible to actually really show this kind of stuff in a movie, even Nolans keysi stuff is completely unreal and choreograped to suit movies which is why the "realism" cry from some of you is something i just cant understand from some of you guys. Like i said it is IMPOSSIBLE for one man to take out ten different guys in a real life situation you have to factor in different strentgh levels, is there an attack plan, different weight/height levels ect are they armed? and what about how it is next to impossible to take them down each time completelyout of the fight? some of them are sure to get up again after a knockdown arent they?.



I dont care what ANYONE says the grand master of all martial arts ever devised couldnt take out ten guys, say with the variable of the master being a standard 5ft/9 height 11/12 stone male of slightly higher strentgh level for his weight/height with a high fitness level pitted againts ten guys, say 3 being equal to the master in weight height who have no training but are very fit regular footballers, three being 16 stones and 6ft 5 with good martial arts training and fit guys who regularly excercise, three being 19 stone and 6ft very fit rugby players but with no martial art training at all and finally one being 6ft and 27 stones obese and very unfit.

They would crush the master.

And if you think the fight is skewed against him by all means turn the variables as you like the master could be 6ft 3 and 16 stones (but can carry the weight very easily) with a punch like mike tyson and the speed of Bruce Lee it makes no difference against those odds.

I think some people see that performance stuff like on youtube where steven seagal is walking through a bunch of guys in a dojo and think its real. its all show people even those small guys seagal is swatting and dwarfing with his height would give him a hell of a fight in a reallife situation.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Name him.

No. I'm not putting his name out there like that. It's not my name, and I'm not throwing it out there without his permission.

Not doubting the man's skill, I'll take your word for it. But in circumstances such as that, I would have to see it to believe it. I honestly just do not think it's possible for any one man to take on 10 simultaneous opponents, all attacking him concurrently. That's an average of 2.5 opponents, per limb....and that's assuming he's somehow found a way not to spare one for balance.

I'm very much so an, "I'll believe it when I experience it first hand," kind of guy. That said, having met with and trained with this guy on a number of occasions, I'd believe just about any story like that concerning this man. He's a freakin' beast, and I don't know if I could ever dedicate the amount of time to anything that this man dedicates to his training and his students.

 

[nathaniel]

Jackie Chan once said all movie fight scenes are an elaborate fantasy and any normal guy on the street is easily capable of beatin him with a punch.

 

[Piuchén]

Jackie Chan once said all movie fight scenes are an elaborate fantasy and any normal guy on the street is easily capable of beatin him with a punch.

Exactly, Jet Li said once that he could never defeat a MMA fighter.

The problem is that everybody think his instructor is over human but doesn"t matter how fit or good he is, it"s impossible for him to take 10 guys.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Jackie Chan once said all movie fight scenes are an elaborate fantasy and any normal guy on the street is easily capable of beatin him with a punch.

That's 100% true. Fights never go the way they go in movies like that. It's incredibly rare that you ever see someone in a real fight execute his movements such fluidity and perfect technique. Hell, even in sparring matches- a controlled environment between two martial artists- the fighting never really goes as fluidly as it looks in the movies. Many times, matches end in one punch. Other times, the matches will result in a chaotic brawl.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Exactly, Jet Li said once that he could never defeat a MMA fighter.

The problem is that everybody think his instructor is over human but doesn"t matter how fit or good he is, it"s impossible for him to take 10 guys.

Okay, you're blowing what I said way out of proportion. I've had instructors who were incredible martial artists, but I've had some who couldn't fight their ways out of paper bags (I had one that couldn't even hurt me or my classmates with the techniques he was teaching us). In the martial arts world, you find out things about your body that you would probably call, "Impossible." Many things that were previously "impossible" become quite "possible" if you're dedicated to your training.

It's not like I'm speaking of some magical cult. I'm talking about real, no-holds barred, uncensored, unrated, uncut (and whatever other analogy you'd like) fighting. No blasting people with Chi energy balls. No levitation or being able to move fire with your mind. Real, tried-and-true, 100% genuine fighting.

As I said before, I'm very much a "Believe it when I do it" kind of guy. It takes a lot to make me believe **** like the story I told- but I've felt firsthand what this guy can do, and it's sickening.

 

[Piuchén]

Okay, you're blowing what I said way out of proportion. I've had instructors who were incredible martial artists, but I've had some who couldn't fight their ways out of paper bags (I had one that couldn't even hurt me or my classmates with the techniques he was teaching us). In the martial arts world, you find out things about your body that you would probably call, "Impossible." Many things that were previously "impossible" become quite "possible" if you're dedicated to your training.

It's not like I'm speaking of some magical cult. I'm talking about real, no-holds barred, uncensored, unrated, uncut (and whatever other analogy you'd like) fighting. No blasting people with Chi energy balls. No levitation or being able to move fire with your mind. Real, tried-and-true, 100% genuine fighting.

As I said before, I'm very much a "Believe it when I do it" kind of guy. It takes a lot to make me believe **** like the story I told- but I've felt firsthand what this guy can do, and it's sickening.

Even if that was true, would be one case in 100000000, so why Batman should be as good, even Special Forces guys you see in films are not the best in Hand to Hand fighting because they have a lot to learn, so in reality (at least in Nolan"s real world) why should Bats be the best fighter of the world, he just need to be better than the regular criminal.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Because having traveled the world, learning NUMEROUS martial arts and training yourself to an insanely high level will work wonders against numerous thugs who don't know how to fight. Maybe not 30 thugs, but if ten know that you're highly skilled and you know that they're afraid of you, that could work wonders against an untrained opponent.

 

[nathaniel]

Because having traveled the world, learning NUMEROUS martial arts and training yourself to an insanely high level will work wonders against numerous thugs who don't know how to fight. Maybe not 30 thugs, but if ten know that you're highly skilled and you know that they're afraid of you, that could work wonders against an untrained opponent.

Maybe but not ten it could be any ten guys with no training picked up from a pub and they would stillbeat any one guy.

 

[brook_33]

Bring back Scarecrow and give him a scythe and/or machetes!!!

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Maybe but not ten it could be any ten guys with no training picked up from a pub and they would stillbeat any one guy.

Yeah... No.

 

[Amon]

I thought some of the fight scenes of Batman Begins was hard to follow due to it being too dark and too close to the camera, but I didn't really notice that being a problem in The Dark Knight. There's always room for improvement, though.

 

[antmanx68]

The fights are just not shot in an exciting way. It may be intentional, it may be because they want it to look brutal and disorienting but it ends up looking the same as if the camera guys just don't know how to film fights. In certain scenes it makes sense NOT to see what Batman's doing, and get the criminals point of view.... Other times we should be able to see it or what's the point? Why not just have the screen say "30 seconds later" and show everyone laying on the ground beaten up.... We are flies on the wall. The ONLY thing that's really holding these movies back if you ask me is the fighting/stunts. Batman *should* be putting the Bourne movies to shame as far as the awesomeness of the fights (I think the Bourne movie fights are very overrated and not nearly as "realistic" as people give them credit for).

fact: Sometimes Batman knocks someone out from the shadows and you can't really see it.

fact: Batman also is a multi-disciplinary martial arts master who can devastate an opponent with any number of moves at any given time.

Sometimes criminals are scared of Batman because he strikes from the Shadows and they can't see what he's doing... sometimes they're scared of him because they CAN see what he's doing. They need to strike a balance between showing him be efficient/brutal when need be (still, we should be able to SEE it), and be exotic and impressive at times (I wanna see Batman go nuts and do some capoeira or something. Some might say that this isn't realistic, well this movie isn't real life either. Show us why he is the Goddam Batman.... Show us why he can straight up dominate just about anyone he faces. I wanna see Bale/stunt guy carrying off moves that I couldn't replicate in my back yard, they need to show Batman being superior and doing things that no one else has the skills to pull off. This doesn't mean wire-fu, or making it cartoony... but it certainly means spicing it up a bit, showing that he really does have a repertoire of moves for any situation.

KFM is cool looking, they should stick with it to some degree, but throw some other stuff in there... even for these more "realistic" Batman movies, you can't just film him doing "realistic" fighting styles because "realistic fighting" is not very exciting from a spectator's point of view. Why do people start booing at UFC fights when they guys are on the ground giving it their all? Or just exchanging punches that aren't really hitting the mark? Because that's not exciting to watch. This is not real life, its entertainment. Number one on my Nolanverse wish list is to have Batman go up against some skilled opponents and have him show that he is just flat out better than them (and for God sakes let us see what he's doing!)

 

[Piuchén]

The fights are just not shot in an exciting way. It may be intentional, it may be because they want it to look brutal and disorienting but it ends up looking the same as if the camera guys just don't know how to film fights. In certain scenes it makes sense NOT to see what Batman's doing, and get the criminals point of view.... Other times we should be able to see it or what's the point? Why not just have the screen say "30 seconds later" and show everyone laying on the ground beaten up.... We are flies on the wall. The ONLY thing that's really holding these movies back if you ask me is the fighting/stunts. Batman *should* be putting the Bourne movies to shame as far as the awesomeness of the fights (I think the Bourne movie fights are very overrated and not nearly as "realistic" as people give them credit for).

fact: Sometimes Batman knocks someone out from the shadows and you can't really see it.

fact: Batman also is a multi-disciplinary martial arts master who can devastate an opponent with any number of moves at any given time.

Sometimes criminals are scared of Batman because he strikes from the Shadows and they can't see what he's doing... sometimes they're scared of him because they CAN see what he's doing. They need to strike a balance between showing him be efficient/brutal when need be (still, we should be able to SEE it), and be exotic and impressive at times (I wanna see Batman go nuts and do some capoeira or something. Some might say that this isn't realistic, well this movie isn't real life either. Show us why he is the Goddam Batman.... Show us why he can straight up dominate just about anyone he faces. I wanna see Bale/stunt guy carrying off moves that I couldn't replicate in my back yard, they need to show Batman being superior and doing things that no one else has the skills to pull off. This doesn't mean wire-fu, or making it cartoony... but it certainly means spicing it up a bit, showing that he really does have a repertoire of moves for any situation.

KFM is cool looking, they should stick with it to some degree, but throw some other stuff in there... even for these more "realistic" Batman movies, you can't just film him doing "realistic" fighting styles because "realistic fighting" is not very exciting from a spectator's point of view. Why do people start booing at UFC fights when they guys are on the ground giving it their all? Or just exchanging punches that aren't really hitting the mark? Because that's not exciting to watch. This is not real life, its entertainment. Number one on my Nolanverse wish list is to have Batman go up against some skilled opponents and have him show that he is just flat out better than them (and for God sakes let us see what he's doing!)

I agree with most of your points but I just think Nolan wants to keep his reality vision and not show excitement, I remember a fight from Year One and wasn"t exciting, Batman gets kicked but he defeat the 2 thugs.

Knowing a lot of martial arts makes a better fighter but not invincible and your probably stay with basic moves and you still would get hit.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I thought some of the fight scenes of Batman Begins was hard to follow due to it being too dark and too close to the camera, but I didn't really notice that being a problem in The Dark Knight. There's always room for improvement, though.

Yeah, it does get very dark on DVD, but on Blu Ray it's a tad easier to see.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Some bar fighters actually stay at the bar all day and then wait for fights. Soem are fairly good too.

 

[nathaniel]

I just dont get the reasoning that Nolan wanted to keep reality and NOT show excitement.

Someone finally explain it to me, The Blowing up of cars, hi tec sonar scenes, and jumping off buildings to enter another and being pulled out by the force of a commercial jet are in no way real so why are you so adamant about fight scenes that are stale in comparison on the ecxcitement meter?