The Dark Knight Rises Improving Fight Scenes

[Crook]

Can we really rely too much on practicality as an angle in fighting, when Bats is lugging around that gigantic cape? Forget the suit, or martial arts style, that oversized blanket is the number one thing that would hold back anyone in combat.

Granted, practicality is sacrificed in favor of maintaining a particular aesthetic (in this case, Batman's iconography), but that is precisely the argument being held for utilizing certain fighting methods.

 

[Mr. Earle]

So CunningStunts you want boring fights because its realistic. I say that tasers dont kill and they would save batman time and protect him from injury. **** fighting. Use a taser. Right?

Wrong. Its a movie. As much as they ve opened up Keysi, its still lousy and with a small variety of moves. At least those that batman uses anyway.

Watch this at 3:50. Like Nolan's fights, at some moments it feels staged, but take a look at the moves. Batman can kick!!! Who would have thought of that? And the moves arent stupid, unnecessary or part of showing off. And the fact that he means business is perfectly shown when he tackles the last thug with the blades with a simple move. Batman just has a variety of moves and he is evidently ten times better than the thugs. Does batman's style make him look better than his opponents in the nolanverse?
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Also, this. Watch at 6:00. That flip is both glorious and effective.
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Btw, i love the rubber cape....

 

[Cunning Stunts]

When you want to get down to opinion, I don't think the fights are boring because of the fighting style. I think what brought them down, as I said, was the actors doing a poor job of making the fights look real. I personally like the Keysi Fighting Method, and think the fight scenes would be about 200% better if they were sped and toned up... In other words, the thugs don't stand around waiting to get hit.

So, yes, Batman most definitely looks like a better fighter in Nolan's films, because he's much more smooth and technical, while his opponents are flailing around. Only one really manages to get the best of him (The Joker), but even that is quickly reversed.

To be honest, I've not once gone to see a Batman movie expecting Jackie Chan-like fights. So, no, I don't find the flip in the second video all that glorious, especially since he didn't even touch the thugs and they still fell over anyway. If he were to use a flip as an evasive maneuver, I can't say I'd mind it, but I really don't want to see a ton of high-flying or insane spins. I'd like to see more throws, like in my two videos (catching the opponent's limb and throwing and/or hitting him).

 

[Crook]

So, no, I don't find the flip in the second video all that glorious, especially since he didn't even touch the thugs and they still fell over anyway.

Funny you say this. If you re-watch the Honk Kong fight scene:

The immediate frame after this is Batman simply taking away the gun. He proceeds to hit another guy (off-screen) with the gun, then comes back to this guy....who has magically fallen unconscious on the floor. There's even a short moment where Batman stops his hit mid-way because he realized the guy is already down.

What the hell was up with this?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Funny you say this. If you re-watch the Honk Kong fight scene:

The immediate frame after this is Batman simply taking away the gun. He proceeds to hit another guy (off-screen) with the gun, then comes back to this guy....who has magically fallen unconscious on the floor. There's even a short moment where Batman stops his hit mid-way because he realized the guy is already down.

What the hell was up with this?

I remember it! My god it was horrible!

When you want to get down to opinion, I don't think the fights are boring because of the fighting style. I think what brought them down, as I said, was the actors doing a poor job of making the fights look real. I personally like the Keysi Fighting Method, and think the fight scenes would be about 200% better if they were sped and toned up... In other words, the thugs don't stand around waiting to get hit.

So, yes, Batman most definitely looks like a better fighter in Nolan's films, because he's much more smooth and technical, while his opponents are flailing around. Only one really manages to get the best of him (The Joker), but even that is quickly reversed.

To be honest, I've not once gone to see a Batman movie expecting Jackie Chan-like fights. So, no, I don't find the flip in the second video all that glorious, especially since he didn't even touch the thugs and they still fell over anyway. If he were to use a flip as an evasive maneuver, I can't say I'd mind it, but I really don't want to see a ton of high-flying or insane spins. I'd like to see more throws, like in my two videos (catching the opponent's limb and throwing and/or hitting him).

I just feel that Kilmer's Batman feels lighter on his feet, more agile, more technical, more ninja. Bale's is a bull that elbows everyone. Very few of his moves are good if you ask me. For example i really like how he tackles the last thug before reaching Maroni in the night club.
He pushes him to the rail, which hits his back, then spins around (a spin? IN MA NOLANVERSE? OH TEH REALISMS ARE SHUTTERED!!!) and hits him in the stomach. Then he finishes him off with a backhand hit to the face.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Funny you say this. If you re-watch the Honk Kong fight scene:

The immediate frame after this is Batman simply taking away the gun. He proceeds to hit another guy (off-screen) with the gun, then comes back to this guy....who has magically fallen unconscious on the floor. There's even a short moment where Batman stops his hit mid-way because he realized the guy is already down.

What the hell was up with this?

Looked to me like he popped the guy in the jaw with the gun.

*Edit* Just watched it again in higher def, it definitely looks like either actor could have made the mistake, that either the choreography was for Batman to hit the thug with a gun and he just didn't get close enough to his face to pull it off, or the thug just completely failed and fell at his first opportunity.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I remember it! My god it was horrible! I just feel that Kilmer's Batman feels lighter on his feet, more agile, more technical, more ninja. Bale's is a bull that elbows everyone. Very few of his moves are good if you ask me. For example i really like how he tackles the last thug before reaching Maroni in the night club.
He pushes him to the rail, which hits his back, then spins around (a spin? IN MA NOLANVERSE? OH TEH REALISMS ARE SHUTTERED!!!) and hits him in the stomach. Then he finishes him off with a backhand hit to the face.

Yeah, you're hilarious. I was referring to the Tony Jaa clips, where he's spinning like 3-4 times in air before striking his opponent. Thanks for trying, though. I'd hardly call one spin an "insane spin".

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah, you're hilarious. I was referring to the Tony Jaa clips, where he's spinning like 3-4 times in air before striking his opponent. Thanks for trying, though. I'd hardly call one spin an "insane spin".

Who the hell is Tony Jaa and when did anyone suggest ridiculous stunts like spinning 4 times in the air?

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Who the hell is Tony Jaa and when did anyone suggest ridiculous stunts like spinning 4 times in the air?

The guy in the Muay Thai example I posted (the reel of fights). And, again, read my post: I didn't say someone suggested it, I was giving an example.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Cuning Stunts, your avvy sums up the type of fighting Batman should be utilizing.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I actually went to type that in a post, but I forgot what I was talking about.

I really should see a doctor about that. Ozy had a sick freakin' fighting style.

 

[Indrid Cold]

I actually went to type that in a post, but I forgot what I was talking about.

It is a a super sick speed-fight, it really looks like he's hitting them. Maybe Zack Snyder can co-direct with Nolan next time.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ozzy's style was bad ass. Simple yet authoritative, as though it was all a breeze for him. I think Batman's should be more brutal though. Just as controlled as Ozzy's, but more energetic, not just standing on the spot.

 

[Naked Shia]

It is a a super sick speed-fight, it really looks like he's hitting them. Maybe Zack Snyder can co-direct with Nolan next time.

Nolan's direction has nothing to dowith the flaw in the fights this time. It was great. The only real flaw is the stuntmen are not reactive enought, with the exception of the maroni fight.

Apart from that,the fights are great, and batman doesn't look like a dancer. Again, i like hong kong movies, i've seen more than 4 hundred hong kong action movies, but that's not what i want to see in a batman movie.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Leo, if the stuntman were to blame, don't you think Nolan should of had some "Insurance" shots? That way any tell tale choreographic mistakes, could of been edited out.

 

[Piuchén]

I remember it! My god it was horrible! I just feel that Kilmer's Batman feels lighter on his feet, more agile, more technical, more ninja. Bale's is a bull that elbows everyone. Very few of his moves are good if you ask me. For example i really like how he tackles the last thug before reaching Maroni in the night club.
He pushes him to the rail, which hits his back, then spins around (a spin? IN MA NOLANVERSE? OH TEH REALISMS ARE SHUTTERED!!!) and hits him in the stomach. Then he finishes him off with a backhand hit to the face.

Kilmer maybe looked lighter but the 4 or five thugs he foughts at the beginning of "Forever" were worst than some of TDK thugs some people are blaming for be such a bad actors.

Cunning Stunt gave a great example with Muay Thai because this arts is one of the primary striking art in Keisy and usually use the high roundhouse kick like Batman does in Begins and the rest are: low kicks, elbows, knees and the head "A la Falcone" in Begins. So for the joy of some people ( and the opposite of others) Nolan will keep this style, I"m sure will be improvement but the "techniques tool box" won"t change

I like Jason Bourne style but some of the moves he does won"t work.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The Daredevil playground fight was ******ed!!! Hahahaha! You re right on everything you say about it.

Now, to your videos:
1) The V for Vendetta one was very good. Very good.
2) The Bourne one wasnt really special imho. Batman is a person who knows every martial art. This fight didnt seem as refined. More like a brawl. Oh yeah, and vomit inducing shaky cam.

Maybe a backflip will be too much, but i think that someone like batman should fight in a brutal and spectacular way. Not like a SWAT or a normal fighter, but like Batman. With punches and moves that nobody else can pull off.

And what he got till now was anything but spectacular. If i see Batman elbow someone one more time....

And see, I would love it if they went a little more with V's style of fighting. It's still practical, but V adds a bit of flair in there. Not too much, to the point where it looks ridiculous, but enough to be stylized and brutal at the same time. I also like The Hunted fights because of this, but these ones simply because it looks like both of those men know exactly what their doing, and it's not as much of an all out brawl.

I do agree that the Bourne films have a bit of a brawl tendancy too it, but that's how I would envision it when Bats goes up against someone closer to his skill level (Ras for example---in the movieverse that is) because when get in a real fight, sometimes you don't have time to be perfect in your form. Also, while that had a brawl element to it, I also liked the instances where it showed that these guys really knew what they were doing. For example, when Bourne gets the guy in a wrist lock, and to get out of it, he does a side flip. That's one example where I could see Bats getting a little more acrobatic in fights.

However, the problem with that is the Cape. You can do it in the comics or the cartoon, but to have a real person try and do a flip with that big arse cape on isn't going to be easy, and most likely it will look silly on screen.

 

[Crook]

CG'ing his cape would eliminate this problem entirely. Having the actor just fight with the bodysuit without worrying about the physical restraints of that blanket would make choreography more efficient.

Shouldn't be hard. It's black and has very little visible texture.

 

[Infinity9999x]

CG'ing his cape would eliminate this problem entirely. Having the actor just fight with the bodysuit without worrying about the physical restraints of that blanket would make choreography more efficient.

Shouldn't be hard. It's black and has very little visible texture.

Yeah, I'm just thinking more of how they would actually make it look right. You can have the guy doing the flip, and CG the cape in, but it would probably be hard to make it look real and not out of place, because it is a big arse cape.

 

[Crook]

A typical technique for cgi methods such as this is to put placeholders on the actor themselves. Two green points on either shoulder, for example. So when the time comes to render, they can use their proprietary physics software to properly gauge how the cape would have moved like it was actually there during filming. With the benefit of "cheating" at certain points for the best visuals.

 

[Infinity9999x]

A typical technique for cgi methods such as this is to put placeholders on the actor themselves. Two green points on either shoulder, for example. So when the time comes to render, they can use their proprietary physics software to properly gauge how the cape would have moved like it was actually there during filming. With the benefit of "cheating" at certain points for the best visuals.

Hmm, well if they can make it work I wouldn't mind something like what we saw in the Bourne fight. I don't want Batman jumping around the place like Spider-man, but showing off some acrobatic abilities I don't mind.

I really would like to see an intense rooftop chase, with a little parkour incorporated in.

 

[daywalker2007]

for starters, get rid of that crappy shaky cam when filming hand to hand combat.

for christs sake, at least they could give us a properly filmed fist fight.

whoever invented that shaky cam style is a grade A moron! was it Tony Scott?
if so, not even Top Gun will redeem him for that!

 

[El Payaso]

for starters, get rid of that crappy shaky cam when filming hand to hand combat.

for christs sake, at least they could give us a properly filmed fist fight.

whoever invented that shaky cam style is a grade A moron! was it Tony Scott?
if so, not even Top Gun will redeem him for that!

HA HA HA HA HA! t:

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Ozzy's style was bad ass. Simple yet authoritative, as though it was all a breeze for him. I think Batman's should be more brutal though. Just as controlled as Ozzy's, but more energetic, not just standing on the spot.

I agree 100%. I'd like for him to move around as well, and be less dance-like, but I like how Ozy's immense power was shown by the fact that he stood in one spot with grounded feet, and just *****-slapped anyone who approached him. I wouldn't mind seeing Batman do that against a few small-time thugs, but if he gets into it with Bane or Deathstroke, Batman's gotta be a bit more aggressive.

CG'ing his cape would eliminate this problem entirely. Having the actor just fight with the bodysuit without worrying about the physical restraints of that blanket would make choreography more efficient.

Shouldn't be hard. It's black and has very little visible texture.

It would take a lot of extra, un-needed work that could be solved by just putting a cape on his back. I'm positive the cape isn't that big of a hindrance to the choreography at all.

 

[Crook]

How so? It would be used for what...3-4 scenes max? Cloth physics aren't as difficult anymore.

And I disagree about the choreography hindrance. Maybe it won't show up, but that's as a result of the choreographers taking to account the cape's size and moving around it, so to speak. I just feel that when it's a cape-or-no-cape scenario, the former will always be better.