The Dark Knight Rises Improving Fight Scenes

[Cunning Stunts]

How so? It would be used for what...3-4 scenes max? Cloth physics aren't as difficult anymore.

And I disagree about the choreography hindrance. Maybe it won't show up, but that's as a result of the choreographers taking to account the cape's size and moving around it, so to speak. I just feel that when it's a cape-or-no-cape scenario, the former will always be better.

Because it costs extra money and time to put into it, when all that's needed is to add a cape. The physics are easier with the engines they have nowadays, sure, but there's still plenty of time for rendering, textures, movement, etc., and then the added problem of having to do it for each frame. They've got whole teams dedicated to this type of thing for a reason.

They also changed up Bale's capes depending on what scenes he was doing, to add ease to whatever the scene called for (fighting, biking, etc.) Lighter, shorter capes were likely used for fighting, so Bale and others didn't get tangled in it as easily. I've had to do fight scenes in similar costumes before, and I assure you, it's not as hard as it's being made out to be. Not saying there aren't complications, but I can assure you that it's not even close to the list of problems Nolan has while making these movies.

 

[Infinity9999x]

How so? It would be used for what...3-4 scenes max? Cloth physics aren't as difficult anymore.

And I disagree about the choreography hindrance. Maybe it won't show up, but that's as a result of the choreographers taking to account the cape's size and moving around it, so to speak. I just feel that when it's a cape-or-no-cape scenario, the former will always be better.

The only problem I see with a CG cape (in a scenario where he does a flip that is) is this:

You said that the CG would use a program that would basically digitally add in how a cape would react in relation to the actors/stunt double's motion. Well, his real cape seems long enough that if you had someone try to flip in it, it would seem like the stuntman might actually land on part of the cape before it could follow the body's momentum.

Now, I'm not doubting that they could do it, it just seems like it would be tough given how long they've made his cape. However, they could make the CG cape a bit shorter, and I doubt we'd notice. They used a shortened cape for the scenes on the Batpod and I never noticed that in the movie.

 

[Crook]

Because it costs extra money and time to put into it, when all that's needed is to add a cape. The physics are easier with the engines they have nowadays, sure, but there's still plenty of time for rendering, textures, movement, etc., and then the added problem of having to do it for each frame. They've got whole teams dedicated to this type of thing for a reason.

They've got whole teams dedicated to removing wires and adding cg backgrounds too. Doesn't change the fact that in the scheme of things, it would be a relatively small project.

They also changed up Bale's capes depending on what scenes he was doing, to add ease to whatever the scene called for (fighting, biking, etc.) Lighter, shorter capes were likely used for fighting, so Bale and others didn't get tangled in it as easily. I've had to do fight scenes in similar costumes before, and I assure you, it's not as hard as it's being made out to be. Not saying there aren't complications, but I can assure you that it's not even close to the list of problems Nolan has while making these movies.

I'm not looking at this as parts of a whole, but parts as an individual. So what if you have other and bigger problems? Does that make the smaller ones insignificant? Do you ignore them because you have "bigger things to worry about"? I wouldn't say so. It's not so much about manageability, as all the live-action suits so far have at least proven somewhat capable. It's about making things easier if you can.

The only problem I see with a CG cape (in a scenario where he does a flip that is) is this:

You said that the CG would use a program that would basically digitally add in how a cape would react in relation to the actors/stunt double's motion. Well, his real cape seems long enough that if you had someone try to flip in it, it would seem like the stuntman might actually land on part of the cape before it could follow the body's momentum.

Like I mentioned earlier, the benefit of the cgi is that they don't have to adhere to real-life physics 100% of the time. If the shot/visuals call for it, they can adjust the cape as they please so it wouldn't look so awkward at a particular moment.

Now, I'm not doubting that they could do it, it just seems like it would be tough given how long they've made his cape. However, they could make the CG cape a bit shorter, and I doubt we'd notice. They used a shortened cape for the scenes on the Batpod and I never noticed that in the movie.

If they did, it wasn't to a significant degree. I distinctly remember when the first spy shots of the Batpod arrived, everyone was worried about the long cape getting stuck on the back tire. People were even wondering if the cape was going to be on at all. ala the then-rumored secret cape compartment.

One of the stunt coordinators even commented how surprised he was that the cape pose little issue. Despite it's length, at the speeds the cycle was going, the air swept under the cape to keep it afloat, keeping it from touching the tires.

 

[Infinity9999x]

If they did, it wasn't to a significant degree. I distinctly remember when the first spy shots of the Batpod arrived, everyone was worried about the long cape getting stuck on the back tire. People were even wondering if the cape was going to be on at all. ala the then-rumored secret cape compartment.

One of the stunt coordinators even commented how surprised he was that the cape pose little issue. Despite it's length, at the speeds the cycle was going, the air swept under the cape to keep it afloat, keeping it from touching the tires.

I remember all that, but while I was reading one of the "behind the scenes" books for TDK (I can't remember the title, but it had the full script in it and lots of concept art) it mentions that they used a shorter cape while he was on the Batpod.

 

[xXLockUpXx]

I'll be happy with the fight scenes if the Batman utilizes a couple of flash grenades, smoke bombs, and batarangs. Oh yea, and have him dislocate a joint or two.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Cuning Stunts, your avvy sums up the type of fighting Batman should be utilizing.

He had some nice moves, but the direction was atrocious. Maybe the point was to ridicule superhero movies, but i cant get over how Ozzy kicks Ror across the room with a kick in the head.

CG'ing his cape would eliminate this problem entirely. Having the actor just fight with the bodysuit without worrying about the physical restraints of that blanket would make choreography more efficient.

Shouldn't be hard. It's black and has very little visible texture.

But it can go so horribly wrong. If Schumacher and Snyder could do it, so can Nolan and Bale. They just need a better crew for the martial arts.


To sum up my thoughts scattered over the last pages:

1. better stunt work
2. more variety in moves. Not just opened up Keysi
3. batman looks like a bull, which is fine, but he should be a ninja as well, light and agile
4. some flair in the fight scenes. Efficiency isnt the key. Its a movie. The fights should be comprehensible and enjoyable but not ridiculous.
5. No Bourne fights. They were brawls shot with shaky cam. Batman's fighting style should feel elite and advanced.

 

[Piuchén]

Like someone said, just put the camera back but keep the style simple, he is a ninja to infiltrate but he doesn"t have to fly or do backflips.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

2. more variety in moves. Not just opened up Keysi

Sounds easier than it is, especially without making it look disjointed and odd.

4. No Bourne fights. They were brawls shot with shaky cam. Batman's fighting style should feel elite and advanced.

They were far from "Brawl shots". Bourne used a martial art that's in the same class as Keysi (one of the more modern, made-for-street-practicality martial arts), Krav Maga. Krav Maga is actually one of the exact martial arts I could see a modern-day Batman using. Its moves are very fast and powerful, and it's made for combat (as in war, much like what's going on in Gotham's streets).

If anything, I'd say have Batman start using Krav Maga exclusively. That'd be a much cleaner transition to a better choreography than having him switch to Shaolin Kung Fu.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Sounds easier than it is, especially without making it look disjointed and odd.

They were far from "Brawl shots". Bourne used a martial art that's in the same class as Keysi (one of the more modern, made-for-street-practicality martial arts), Krav Maga. Krav Maga is actually one of the exact martial arts I could see a modern-day Batman using. Its moves are very fast and powerful, and it's made for combat (as in war, much like what's going on in Gotham's streets).

If anything, I'd say have Batman start using Krav Maga exclusively. That'd be a much cleaner transition to a better choreography than having him switch to Shaolin Kung Fu.

The fights in Bourne were Kali (sometimes referred to as Eskrima), I love that style. I've actually spent some time learning Kali in the past few years and I think it's pretty cool. Krav Maga is great too, though I wouldn't go out of my way to learn it since it's pretty much a recombination of stuff from other martial arts and from what I've seen it's stuff I already know.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I've read that hints of Eskrima were included (as well as a few other arts), but that Krav Maga seems to be the main source of his fights.

Not to sound like an *******, but do you have any sources?

 

[Crook]

Pretty much every source you can find mentioning the fighting style in the movies, mentions Kali. Krav Maga plays bit roles, but not as much as the former. I believe it's also in the extras of either Supremacy or Ultimatum, which you can find on YouTube.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Well considering I trained in Kali I can recognize the art by how he moves, the stance used, his use of circular striking as taught. But hey, I've just got 23 years in martial arts.

Oh, and he talks about it on the DVD too.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Double post

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Well considering I trained in Kali I can recognize the art by how he moves, the stance used, his use of circular striking as taught. But hey, I've just got 23 years in martial arts.

No need to get hostile, I just wanted to know if you'd had a real source. I'd never seen the special features on the DVD, so I'd only known what I've read about the movie, and recognized some of the moves myself.

Oh, and he talks about it on the DVD too.

Works for me.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I'm not getting hostile, I'm pointing out that I know Kali so i don't have to site a source for something I have years of experience in. But of course, personal experience counts for little.

 

[Indrid Cold]

I'm not getting hostile, I'm pointing out that I know Kali so i don't have to site a source for something I have years of experience in. But of course, personal experience counts for little.

ChickenScratch for Batman!! I think Batman works a lot better when he's taking on one or two guys at a time. When you see him take on a bunch of guys...it looks a little too scripted.

 

[Infinity9999x]

ChickenScratch for Batman!! I think Batman works a lot better when he's taking on one or two guys at a time. When you see him take on a bunch of guys...it looks a little too scripted.

Well it's because, to be honest, once you have one guy taking on 5 plus guys who all have guns, it's going to look a bit scripted simply because in real life you'd probably get tagged pretty quick. I thought the most efficient and "realistic" way Nolan had Bats do it was in BB when he was using his grappling hook to jump down, take out a guy or two, and jump back into the shadows.

 

[Anita18]

I dunno, the fight scenes did seem somewhat staged in TDK, but they didn't bug me all that much. Upon multiple viewings, the Pruitt building sequence is rather messy and does start to bug me, mostly because you don't get a sense of geography. Some of it's actually impossible geographically speaking, but it still feels intuitive which is why we don't catch it on first viewing.

Wouldn't hurt Nolan to channel a little more Spielberg or Snyder in the action fight scenes...

 

[The Batman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMVJvAydeSA

thats how bats should fight

 

[Mr. Earle]

Sounds easier than it is, especially without making it look disjointed and odd.



They were far from "Brawl shots". Bourne used a martial art that's in the same class as Keysi (one of the more modern, made-for-street-practicality martial arts), Krav Maga. Krav Maga is actually one of the exact martial arts I could see a modern-day Batman using. Its moves are very fast and powerful, and it's made for combat (as in war, much like what's going on in Gotham's streets).

If anything, I'd say have Batman start using Krav Maga exclusively. That'd be a much cleaner transition to a better choreography than having him switch to Shaolin Kung Fu.

The point is that it was too fast to make out or even enjoy. Also, it looked too focused on efficiency rather than showing off. I dont want one or the other, just something in the middle. Cause in the end, using a taser is both safe and efficient but batman doesnt use it, does he?
Therefore, i have no interest in short, messy uber-realistic fight scenes...

 

[RustyCage]

In response to the original post:

I think it's a progression of Batman's character, how well you can see, how he fights. In BB, he was establishing his image, he was still this new mystery to his enemies, so his fighting and the camera work reflects it. It puts us in the moment, in the emotions of it. In TDK everyone knows he's out there so we see him in plain view. Get my meaning? I think in Batman 3 it'll be a mix of the two. He's an outcast, but he's also not new in the eyes of his enemies. How does that kind of character fight? I think that's what we'll be seeing, as there seems to be an evolution in every aspect of these movies based around who he's become and what he's learned or been put through.

But on my initial point, the complaining is really silly, I'd even go as far as to call it ignorant, it's missing the message, the art. The fighting being so obscure is part of the scariness of Batman as an image in Begins. The criminals have no idea what the hell is going on, it's just this flurry of omg I'm getting my a** kicked by this freaky guy in all black. And before they know what hit them, he's stepping over their defeated bodies on the floor. Brilliant way to introduce the character, the image, as I stated in the previous paragraph.

Regardless of that though, I could actually see well enough to tell what was going on in BB. Frankly, just pay attention (and maybe adjust your TV, it could be automatically set really dark - I know one of my sets is waaay darker than the other, and it wasn't my doing!). Then again I've also watched it dozens of times so I've had time to examine and appreciate it.

And as far as TDK goes, I literally have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The camera is pulled back so you can CLEARLY see every single motion he's doing. He even did the moves pretty damn slowly so everyone could see better! Honestly, I thought it made him seem too exposed and naked, it was un-Batman. So did all the bright lights in that film. I thought we saw too much, and it seemed awkward. The fact that you said you couldn't tell what was going on.. blows. my. mind.

yes Batman needs to actually use martial arts!!! He looked like a straight up Brawler in TDK and its the mother****ing batman! he needs to start using his training and martial arts.. thats who he is not just using his elbows and gaunlets and just Judo throws... that urked me so much in TDK.

You realize that was martial arts too right? Ever hear of Muay Thai? Elbows there, man. What about Sambo? And you yourself just listed Judo. Christian trained a lot, check all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff and you're bound to come across it. Sorry it's not some cheesily overacted showy bulls***, but realistically, would the character of Batman be flying around doing Matrix poses and elaborate crap like that? Or would he get in there and get it done quick and dirty and try not to be seen? Come on now.

 

[returntovoid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMVJvAydeSA

thats how bats should fight

Exactly! Batman: Arkham Asylum took the right element of Bruce Lee films and added Batman's own fighting style in.

You can also clearly see the fighting.

 

[Mr. Earle]

In response to the original post:

I think it's a progression of Batman's character, how well you can see, how he fights. In BB, he was establishing his image, he was still this new mystery to his enemies, so his fighting and the camera work reflects it. It puts us in the moment, in the emotions of it. In TDK everyone knows he's out there so we see him in plain view. Get my meaning? I think in Batman 3 it'll be a mix of the two. He's an outcast, but he's also not new in the eyes of his enemies. How does that kind of character fight? I think that's what we'll be seeing, as there seems to be an evolution in every aspect of these movies based around who he's become and what he's learned or been put through.

Oh gosh... I hate it when people do that. Justifying things like that with plot. "B3 batman will be an outcast so his fighting will be like this..."
In Begins, it was Nolan's first action scenes. The only ones he did well were the prison one (brutal, unrefined, filled with anger) and the docks (batman's first appearence, the enemies are buffled by that creature). For the rest of the movie he is just trying to show us what is going on, but he is hindered by his lack of experience and the restrictive Batsuit.

In TDK, he just improved and pulled back the camera after all the criticism he got for BB. It had nothing to do with people getting wise to batman's act (which is also stupid of him and shouldnt have happened but anyway).

You realize that was martial arts too right? Ever hear of Muay Thai? Elbows there, man. What about Sambo? And you yourself just listed Judo. Christian trained a lot, check all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff and you're bound to come across it. Sorry it's not some cheesily overacted showy bulls***, but realistically, would the character of Batman be flying around doing Matrix poses and elaborate crap like that? Or would he get in there and get it done quick and dirty and try not to be seen? Come on now.

Its a movie and its purpose is to entertain us. Wouldnt Neo wanna take down Smith without the extra sweat and go home and drink some coffee? The extra poses were part of the film's art, part of what made the film so great and IMHO they were amazing and suited the film.
As for Batman, sure he would look ridiculous if he did all that, he should be fast and efficient, but he needs a bigger variety of moves. Up until now he has been elbowing everyone and using one thug's gun to shoot the other in the leg. Is that all he learned in his many years of training?

Schumacher may have sucked, but his fight scenes in Forever were better than Nolan's. He clearly worked around the rubber suit's weaknesses, to the point that you never got the impression that it hindered batman, we never saw his batsuits crease like Batman's armpits in Begins, and his batman had a bigger variety of moves. He punched, he kicked, etc. A roundhouse kick for example is a killer move and Nolan's only used it once against Ra's ninjas.
Sure maybe Schumacher's fight scenes werent perfect, but they were better. Batman looked like an elite fighter, fast and light on his feet. Nolan's feels restricted in his rubber suit.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The point is that it was too fast to make out or even enjoy. Also, it looked too focused on efficiency rather than showing off. I dont want one or the other, just something in the middle. Cause in the end, using a taser is both safe and efficient but batman doesnt use it, does he?
Therefore, i have no interest in short, messy uber-realistic fight scenes...

I get what you're saying here, but I'm very wary of it because it kind of toes a dangerous line. If you go too much for show, you end up getting a generic kung fu action-like movie where it's completely unrealistic, and if you go too far the other way sometimes it's not exciting enough.

Now, I disagree with you on the Bourne issue, simply because I thought that the fight in Bourne Ultimatum was a great fight. It was high energy, brutal, and intense. And I think a lot of it had to do with the build up. There's this huge build up of tension as Bourne races to stop this guy from killing the girl he's with, and when he finally gets to him, it's this huge knock down, drag out, intense fight.

And yes, it looks efficent, but I think (in the world Nolan's crafted) you have to make the fighting look efficent. Had the films been done in a little more fantastical way, then I think fightscenes more like Watchmen, or 300 (to an extent) would have worked fine.

 

[Piuchén]

In response to the original post:

I think it's a progression of Batman's character, how well you can see, how he fights. In BB, he was establishing his image, he was still this new mystery to his enemies, so his fighting and the camera work reflects it. It puts us in the moment, in the emotions of it. In TDK everyone knows he's out there so we see him in plain view. Get my meaning? I think in Batman 3 it'll be a mix of the two. He's an outcast, but he's also not new in the eyes of his enemies. How does that kind of character fight? I think that's what we'll be seeing, as there seems to be an evolution in every aspect of these movies based around who he's become and what he's learned or been put through.

But on my initial point, the complaining is really silly, I'd even go as far as to call it ignorant, it's missing the message, the art. The fighting being so obscure is part of the scariness of Batman as an image in Begins. The criminals have no idea what the hell is going on, it's just this flurry of omg I'm getting my a** kicked by this freaky guy in all black. And before they know what hit them, he's stepping over their defeated bodies on the floor. Brilliant way to introduce the character, the image, as I stated in the previous paragraph.

Regardless of that though, I could actually see well enough to tell what was going on in BB. Frankly, just pay attention (and maybe adjust your TV, it could be automatically set really dark - I know one of my sets is waaay darker than the other, and it wasn't my doing!). Then again I've also watched it dozens of times so I've had time to examine and appreciate it.

And as far as TDK goes, I literally have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The camera is pulled back so you can CLEARLY see every single motion he's doing. He even did the moves pretty damn slowly so everyone could see better! Honestly, I thought it made him seem too exposed and naked, it was un-Batman. So did all the bright lights in that film. I thought we saw too much, and it seemed awkward. The fact that you said you couldn't tell what was going on.. blows. my. mind.



You realize that was martial arts too right? Ever hear of Muay Thai? Elbows there, man. What about Sambo? And you yourself just listed Judo. Christian trained a lot, check all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff and you're bound to come across it. Sorry it's not some cheesily overacted showy bulls***, but realistically, would the character of Batman be flying around doing Matrix poses and elaborate crap like that? Or would he get in there and get it done quick and dirty and try not to be seen? Come on now.

Exactly and I prefer Thai Boxing not beatiful low kicks, knees and elbows than fancy moves.

Oh gosh... I hate it when people do that. Justifying things like that with plot. "B3 batman will be an outcast so his fighting will be like this..."
In Begins, it was Nolan's first action scenes. The only ones he did well were the prison one (brutal, unrefined, filled with anger) and the docks (batman's first appearence, the enemies are buffled by that creature). For the rest of the movie he is just trying to show us what is going on, but he is hindered by his lack of experience and the restrictive Batsuit.

In TDK, he just improved and pulled back the camera after all the criticism he got for BB. It had nothing to do with people getting wise to batman's act (which is also stupid of him and shouldnt have happened but anyway).
Its a movie and its purpose is to entertain us. Wouldnt Neo wanna take down Smith without the extra sweat and go home and drink some coffee? The extra poses were part of the film's art, part of what made the film so great and IMHO they were amazing and suited the film.
As for Batman, sure he would look ridiculous if he did all that, he should be fast and efficient, but he needs a bigger variety of moves. Up until now he has been elbowing everyone and using one thug's gun to shoot the other in the leg. Is that all he learned in his many years of training?

Schumacher may have sucked, but his fight scenes in Forever were better than Nolan's. He clearly worked around the rubber suit's weaknesses, to the point that you never got the impression that it hindered batman, we never saw his batsuits crease like Batman's armpits in Begins, and his batman had a bigger variety of moves. He punched, he kicked, etc. A roundhouse kick for example is a killer move and Nolan's only used it once against Ra's ninjas.
Sure maybe Schumacher's fight scenes werent perfect, but they were better. Batman looked like an elite fighter, fast and light on his feet. Nolan's feels restricted in his rubber suit.

In Forever he even does a Flyng armbar and the same armlock he did in Begins when he goes to save Rachel, then he finish the last guy in a very stupid way, if that"s better for you go ahead.

Nolan could do a lot of more things but he want to keep simple because that what happens in reality.