The Dark Knight In your mind, what IS the origin of this version of the Joker?

[Doc Samson]

I still don't buy the insistence on "one bad day" for this Joker. I do for Alan Moore's, but he's a different character (but I hope all those little goth-emo girls with their horrid fanfiction don't get started on him). I don't see this one as the sort of profile mad killer either, psychotic from childhood. However, his cynicism is far too deeply entrenched and permeating to derive from some tipping point for an essentially nice guy. Even not so nice guys can see the abyss. And even people with fairly "normal" lives can grow up with relatively little faith in human nature (all you have to do is watch the news). I'm sure all of you probably knew in junior high or high school someone very intelligent but standoffish, the sort who might sit at the back of the room with a sneery sardonic smile, probably knowing they were brighter than anyone else there. I do see him as someone who probably has been clinically disturbed for quite a while, and not all forms of clinical disturbance are the result of trauma.

Though I suppose it is encouraging that people are capable of this degree of desire for empathy.

I agree with alot of that, but I think something had to happen, or else he wouldn't be so driven to prove that he can make anyone a monster. I've always had a believe that whatever caused the scars only triggered what was already there. Like I've said in previous posts, IMO, the permawhite Joker is slightly tragic, only because of the fact that an event like that would turn anyone crazy. It's impossible for the comic Joker to be normal, and although that doesnt excuse his behavior, you can understand where it comes from, slightly.

TDK Joker I feel is much more scary, and insane, because of the fact that he decides to paint his face and murder people, he chooses to be a clown, he isn't stuck as one. That being said, I still think something happened to make his outlook on humans so bleak. He prides himself on being a "man of his word" and showing people that their not as decent as they think they are. I feel like this attitude wasn't just there from birth, he developed this from somewhere

 

[agentzelda]

The issue of tragedy does depend on choice, and that's where Alan Moore is so brilliant because his Joker chooses the circumstances that do lead to his disfigurement, but seems to retain some sense that he could have chosen differently, and maybe that's what Batman sees as the potential for redemption. In other words, he does suffer. Even if his memories are false and "multiple choice" there are elements suggesting there's a bit of truth to them. It doesn't excuse his behaviour (and Moore takes care of that too by having the behaviour so horrifying: you cannot just pity anyone who could do anything like he does to Gordon and especially Barbara), but it complicates it.

And this one is complicated further, because the scars don't seem to create him so much as they seem to amplify whatever he is. However, to a certain extent he is stuck there, and this actually brings in the element of surroundings. Even if attitudes are not inherent at birth, they owe a lot to circumstance, and the sad fact is, many people are born into circumstances that probably encourage sociopathy and nihilism from the outset, with absent or distant or actually abusive parents, for example. They might very well realize that concepts like loyalty and decency exist, but might be apt to see them as an illusion of people with overly comfortable lives, if not indeed a joke.

All that said, this one is almost puritanical in his zealous insistence on the corruption of others, but never, it seems, because it differs from the lost goodness in himself. He is genuinely stymied by Batman. His genuine tragedy is that he may never have known the terrifying vulnerability of loving and being loved by another person: Batman/Bruce has always known that, through his parents, then through Rachel, and especially Alfred.

So is he still capable of choosing to be anything else? Probably not. When he speaks of things being horrifying it's to other people, not to himself: his "insanity" in the technical sense rests partly in his inability to see what he does as anything other than what he does. And yet none of this means he doesn't suffer, but if he does, it's at a deep, deep level he doesn't want to admit and it is really only hinted at by his hatred at being called a freak.

 

[Doc Samson]

The issue of tragedy does depend on choice, and that's where Alan Moore is so brilliant because his Joker chooses the circumstances that do lead to his disfigurement, but seems to retain some sense that he could have chosen differently, and maybe that's what Batman sees as the potential for redemption. In other words, he does suffer. Even if his memories are false and "multiple choice" there are elements suggesting there's a bit of truth to them. It doesn't excuse his behaviour (and Moore takes care of that too by having the behaviour so horrifying: you cannot just pity anyone who could do anything like he does to Gordon and especially Barbara), but it complicates it.

And this one is complicated further, because the scars don't seem to create him so much as they seem to amplify whatever he is. However, to a certain extent he is stuck there, and this actually brings in the element of surroundings. Even if attitudes are not inherent at birth, they owe a lot to circumstance, and the sad fact is, many people are born into circumstances that probably encourage sociopathy and nihilism from the outset, with absent or distant or actually abusive parents, for example. They might very well realize that concepts like loyalty and decency exist, but might be apt to see them as an illusion of people with overly comfortable lives, if not indeed a joke.

All that said, this one is almost puritanical in his zealous insistence on the corruption of others, but never, it seems, because it differs from the lost goodness in himself. He is genuinely stymied by Batman. His genuine tragedy is that he may never have known the terrifying vulnerability of loving and being loved by another person: Batman/Bruce has always known that, through his parents, then through Rachel, and especially Alfred.

So is he still capable of choosing to be anything else? Probably not. When he speaks of things being horrifying it's to other people, not to himself: his "insanity" in the technical sense rests partly in his inability to see what he does as anything other than what he does. And yet none of this means he doesn't suffer, but if he does, it's at a deep, deep level he doesn't want to admit and it is really only hinted at by his hatred at being called a freak.

And that is something I've been trying to decipher since I first saw the movie. To me, it's the only point in the film where he truly gets upset, where his emotion is real and not a act to intimidate or influence people. Part of me thinks he truly is insane in the classical sense, and part of me believes that he isn't crazy or unhinged at all, at least in terms of why he's doing what he's doing. Anyone who kills so freely is at the least, a sociopath, but it doesn't mean he's a complete nut, I just find it interesting that he would take offense to that, like he can't understand why someone would label him a freak in the first place?

 

[The Batkilt]

One day a vagrant walked into Gotham and decided to take it.

This. Personally I'm happy with The Joker as an absolute, I'd rather not have a definite origin for how he came to be as he was shown in TDK. That's not an insult to those discussing his state of mind or anything, as I think that is fascinating - but how he got the scars and became The Joker? I'm not too bothered.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Thats why I think there more to this Joker than just wanting to blow crap up and kill people. There is deffinatly something underneath that crazy sorta bubbly exterior. I noticed when he screams "LOOK AT ME!!" there is pain in his voice. Its like he is sorta pleading "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT WHAT I'VE BECOME!" I get the feeling deep down he is ashamed of what he is, and that he doesn't feel responsible for it. But he is so hard to study, he clearly enjoys it aswell. I get the feeling that his was mocked by children when he was younger(as we know kids can be very cruel) and then when he got older he was mocked by his peers in the criminal fraternity. All these events have built up inside him, like he bottled all the hate up and one day it just exploded out of him leading to his absolute hate for human kind. Thats why he was trying to bring people down to his level, he is alone. That look on his face when he realises everyone on the ferries would rather die than become like him says it all, its kinda heart-breaking in a twisted way.

 

[Rishi]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but I always loved Jonathan Nolan's interpretation (or commentary) on the Joker... in how with the first scene of the movie, its as if he just appeared out of thin air.

Given how elemental a character like the Joker is... how psychotic, how driven, and how much of a force he is. It works for me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I like that idea aswell, like hes a demon like Loki or something. But I do really sense some emotion underneath that phychopathic exterior.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya hell maybe Joker appeared when that goon put on the mask. He just appeared. All the pain and suffering in the world put into one person

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I have thought of that before, like hes the personification of man-kinds dark side if you will.

But thats whats great about him, he is soooo complicated and difficult to study we will never know what he is about. I don't think even Nolan knows what he is, the only person who knows would be the person who created this portrayal, Heath Ledger. Apparently Nolan just let Ledger create him out of his mind, maybe the Joker we see in TDK is like a evil twisted version of Heath? Sadly we will never know.

 

[CaptainClown]

well if we read that diary of Ledgers we might find out.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ohhh man that would be so sweet if it had little excerpts on the DVD/Blu-Ray. I think that would be the greatest special feature on any DVD, ever.
But they might not do it because it could be deemed personal to Heath and maybe be in bad taste to let everyone see it.

 

[CaptainClown]

It also has some somewhat controversial things in it that some people might not deem appropriate. Like "aids is funny" I am positive it gets a lot worse but ya.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh yea i remember hearing about that. Things like mis-carriages and aids, yea pretty sick really

 

[Trooper]

1) Had a bad child hood due to abusive father whom he hated, his father physically hurt him and his mother. Maybe hes scars from his father are emotional?
2) His wife gambled alot and was in debt with 'the sharks'
3) He ripped off mob dealers in order to help his wife
4) Given scars by forceful mobsters once caught, hes wife leaves him after he tried to help her, she cant stand to look at the scars.
5) Wants to watch the world burn. Becomes an agent of chaos.

 

[Doctor Jones]

He was conjured up out of thin air seconds before that shot on the sidewalk.

There you go.

 

[DeGenerate10]

IMO The Joker told the truth about his father and wife. But the scars they gave him weren't physical they were mental scars. His father beat him and his mother. His wife left him when he got in trouble because of gambling.

Madness, as you know, is like gravity all you need is a little push.

 

[Rasputin911]

I think the more similar you make his origin to Batman's, the better.

He probably had a **** childhood, which formed the basis of his personality and led to some depraved habits (torturing animals, setting fires). Suffered lots of abuse, which would explain his gleeful reaction when getting his ass whooped in jail by batman. He had to become a masochist to deal with the pain. Maybe he had an irrational fear of clowns.

But Batman made the choice to protect others from the trauma he suffered. Joker didn't make that choice. Instead, he became a career criminal, playing with different personas/symbols until he went through some "metamorphosis" and became what he is. Maybe Batman is what inspired the "Joker" persona, or maybe he decided upon it earlier, and put himself in the spotlight to compete with Batman

 

[nightwing666]

Ugh, never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy."

PROUD
PERMAWHITE-SUPREMECIST
"We don't take kindly to makeup-wearin' types 'round these parts

Your a loser mate.​

 

[Crook]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but I always loved Jonathan Nolan's interpretation (or commentary) on the Joker... in how with the first scene of the movie, its as if he just appeared out of thin air.

Given how elemental a character like the Joker is... how psychotic, how driven, and how much of a force he is. It works for me.

Yea I like that idea aswell, like hes a demon like Loki or something. But I do really sense some emotion underneath that phychopathic exterior.

I think it's more of a symbolic statement of Joker's nature, rather than a literal disposition. Appearing out of thin air is nice for folklore and myths, but it doesn't have much depth in today's standards. Loki, as well as the other Norse characters, were gods. Little explanation was needed or demanded because of their stature. Now you could say that's the point of Joker, but I always preferred it if he were someone we could pick apart for days, but not ever truly understand.

I agree with alot of that, but I think something had to happen, or else he wouldn't be so driven to prove that he can make anyone a monster. I've always had a believe that whatever caused the scars only triggered what was already there.

Precisely. TDK Joker had "too much" of an underlying motive throughout the film. I'd even go as far to say that the "some men just want to watch the world burn" description is inaccurate. Joker didn't care about luxury, nor for people's well-being. But he sure as hell had a point he wanted to get across.

Like I've said in previous posts, IMO, the permawhite Joker is slightly tragic, only because of the fact that an event like that would turn anyone crazy. It's impossible for the comic Joker to be normal, and although that doesnt excuse his behavior, you can understand where it comes from, slightly.

TDK Joker I feel is much more scary, and insane, because of the fact that he decides to paint his face and murder people, he chooses to be a clown, he isn't stuck as one.

Except that the chemical bath incident was only the beginning. Joker still chose to adopt a clown motif, chose to start a vendetta against Batman, chose to randomly kill, and every other classical Joker trait you can think of. It is not all dissimilar from TDK Joker at all. Only in how they were created, which is vague in the first place.

That being said, I still think something happened to make his outlook on humans so bleak. He prides himself on being a "man of his word" and showing people that their not as decent as they think they are. I feel like this attitude wasn't just there from birth, he developed this from somewhere

Joker's entire monologue in the interrogation room is a great insight into the character. I feel that every hint of an origin that is to be gathered, is coming straight from his mouth. I have no doubt this was a man scorned in life, and was only living to make sure everyone else felt his tragedy.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea definitely. Something has happened to him, or a series of events have happened to him. He wouldn't just wake up one day and think"Oh I know lets take on the persona of a twisted clown and cause chaos and terror!!". IMO there is something horrible lurking beneath that already horrible exterior.

I think it further connects him and Batman. Bruce suffered a tragedy when he was a child but he used his guilt and vengeful feelings for good, perhaps Joker suffered a similar tragedy but used his hate and vengeful feelings for evil. I know i've said it countless times but when he screams "LOOK AT ME!!" there is definitely something else there, he isn't just trying to intimidate Brian, it's sorta like he is pleading.

 

[gwynplaine]

Heath character from "Candy" crossed a bunch of ruthless heroin dealers who killed his girlfriend and cut his face. He lost his mind, changed his wardrobe, experimented with make up to perfect his new persona and completely reinvented himself, and now as you can see he is much happier.

 

[Lemenbolle]

I'm sure all of you probably knew in junior high or high school someone very intelligent but standoffish, the sort who might sit at the back of the room with a sneery sardonic smile, probably knowing they were brighter than anyone else there.

I think this. I think he likes philosophy.

 

[ChocheTheHero]

A low level gangster, who works for the mob. A quiet, stranger person. One day he does something really wrong and his punishment: scars. A really bad day. When Batman appears at Gotham, he takes revenge, destroying himself and then The Joker is born...

 

[nightwing666]

Yea definitely. Something has happened to him, or a series of events have happened to him. He wouldn't just wake up one day and think"Oh I know lets take on the persona of a twisted clown and cause chaos and terror!!". IMO there is something horrible lurking beneath that already horrible exterior.

I think it further connects him and Batman. Bruce suffered a tragedy when he was a child but he used his guilt and vengeful feelings for good, perhaps Joker suffered a similar tragedy but used his hate and vengeful feelings for evil. I know i've said it countless times but when he screams "LOOK AT ME!!" there is definitely something else there, he isn't just trying to intimidate Brian, it's sorta like he is pleading.

um ok. Why does nearly everyone want to feel sorry for the JOKER. Say that he want through some sort of tragedy. What aload of ****. He was intimidating Brian.

 

[nightwing666]

IMO The Joker told the truth about his father and wife. But the scars they gave him weren't physical they were mental scars. His father beat him and his mother. His wife left him when he got in trouble because of gambling.

Madness, as you know, is like gravity all you need is a little push.

WTF!!!! The JOKER is a liar. Plain and simple. The JOKER wants you to feel sorry for him before he does something nasty to you. You obviously dont understand the JOKER!!!!
Madness, as you know, is like gravity all you need is a little push but thats what the JOKER wants you to think. Alot of people are alot stonger than that! What happened to Harvey wasn't just alittle push. His GIRL ****ing DIED and his FACE WAS BURNED HALF OFF.
I never even dreamed that something bad happened to the JOKER to make him be that way. HE's just that ****ed up and sick and twisted of a person to to do things like that.I believe that he did those scares himself. He's just making excuses to why he's like that. Oh it's not my fault my Daddy abused me and he cut a smile into my face or my wife left me because of gambling so I cut a smile into my face to show her the funny side. Bull****! He's ****ing nuts but he high intelligent but in some control but the JOKER is just a persona and the cuts are to throw people off to make them think this guy is 100% insane.