Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[Spider-Fan]

So all people of ethnic Asian descent - regardless of their country of origin or where their families have since immigrated, or how long ago their ancestors left their homelands -are familiar with the culture of the mystical city of K'un Lun?

How is that mentally not racist?

Touche' on that point (I can admit being wrong), but that doesn't make your point any better either. Why specifically do you want Danny to be Asian? What other than his fighting skill screams to you he needs to be Asian? Please, give me something other than "It was a missed opportunity." I would like to know, how is Danny Asian in all aspects but appearance?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So all people of ethnic Asian descent - regardless of their country of origin or where their families have since immigrated, or how long ago their ancestors left their homelands -are familiar with the culture of the mystical city of K'un Lun?

How is that mentally not racist?

You said he was Asian in every way. How so?

 

[Zarex]

How much Iron Fist have you read? What makes Iron Fist Asian in all but appearance?

I read a good chunk of his run alongside Power Man. Is that sufficient to comment on this thread?

Danny's cultural background, body art and costume are all Asian inspired.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It also plays into the ridiculous misconception that just because you are racially Asian, that makes you culturally Asian. I have Mexican roots. But I grew up in the US, do not speak Spanish, and as hard as my mother and grandmother may have tried, I am very American in terms of my culture.

Gross over-generalization on my part, I admit that.

 

[Zarex]

Touche' on that point (I can admit being wrong), but that doesn't make your point any better either. Why specifically do you want Danny to be Asian? What other than his fighting skill screams to you he needs to be Asian? Please, give me something other than "It was a missed opportunity." I would like to know, how is Danny Asian in all aspects but appearance?

I thought it would have been a good opportunity for Marvel to cast an Asian male as a superhero - they don't have a lot - and potentially increase the number of Asian fans of Marvel product. Danny's cultural upbringing, costume and body art were all Asian inspired.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I read a good chunk of his run alongside Power Man. Is that sufficient to comment on this thread?

Danny's cultural background, body art and costume are all Asian inspired.

Danny was 9 when he went to K'un-Lun. He Spent the first 9 years of his life in New York. His culture background is every bit American as it is "Asian". So that gives you two things. Though I am curious how many Asian inspired characters have that kind of outfit.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I thought it would have been a good opportunity for Marvel to cast an Asian male as a superhero - they don't have a lot - and potentially increase the number of Asian fans of Marvel product. Danny's cultural upbringing, costume and body art were all Asian inspired.

Has nothing to do with what makes the character inherently Asian and is again another way of just saying "It's a missed opportunity" which as we established, is not making your argument about Danny being Asian in all aspects but appearance. As for your other points, please elaborate and stop being general. If you want me to come to your side at all, please more specifics.

 

[Zarex]

Has nothing to do with what makes the character inherently Asian and is again another way of just saying "It's a missed opportunity" which as we established, is not making your argument about Danny being Asian in all aspects but appearance. As for your other points, please elaborate and stop being general. If you want me to come to your side at all, please more specifics.

No offense, but I don't give a rat's behind if you come to my side or not.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No offense, but I don't give a rat's behind if you come to my side or not.

In other words, you don't have more specific points to offer me

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Gross over-generalization on my part, I admit that.

I didn't read your post like that, because I was responding to the idea of what it means to be "Asian" in this context. The general problem with the argument is that being Asian racially, makes you Asian culturally. That is the general problem with the overall argument that they needed to make Iron Fist "Asian".

It is defaulting Asian as a race and Asian as an ethnicity as the same thing. Before getting into the fact that Asia is just as diverse as any other part of the world in terms of culture.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I didn't read your post like that, because I was responding to the idea of what it means to be "Asian" in this context. The general problem with the argument is that being Asian racially, makes you Asian culturally. That is the general problem with the overall argument that they needed to make Iron Fist "Asian".

It is defaulting Asian as a race and Asian as am ethnicity as the same thing. Before getting into the fact that Asia is just as diverse as any other part of the world in terms of culture.

That was kind of what I was going for, but I also re-read what I wrote and it did sort of sound like all Asian cultures are similar when I blankly said Asian Danny, which I do know better because I watch tons of Chinese and Japanese cinema and know various differences in the cultures, so I felt bad about my wording, lol.

 

[Nayt Navare]

You mean the place where your race literally defines your wrestling style?

Yeah, this, 100%! Race means how you fight! Like all Somoa are heavyweight monsters, like Unaga and Rikishi- oh. The Rock, and Roman Reigns- well... at least they're not high flyers- Oh. Crap. The Usos.

Well, at least all white wrestlers are technical wrestlers like Bret Hart- Wait, no, Hulk Hogan. Well, all powerhouses then- crap, no, John Morrison. So, all flashy, then- damn, no, the Miz.

But black people are consistent! They're all strong men, like Big E and Bobby Lash- wait, no, Kofi. Well, exception, I'm sure- shoot, no, Rich Swan.

At least all asians are fast flyers- crap. Yokozuna. Hurm...

But hey, they all ACT right, right? I mean, every European guy is a pompous- wait, Shaemus. Cesaro. Jack. The Bulldog.

Well, every white guy acts like Hulk- err, Stone Co-... John Cena?

But all asians are angry and antagon-... Shinske.

Huh. Well, uh... I dunno. I got nothing.

 

[Kane52630]

I must be the only guy who watches combat sports on this site.

Anderson Silva could be Iron Fist.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, this, 100%! Race means how you fight! Like all Somoa are heavyweight monsters, like Unaga and Rikishi- oh. The Rock, and Roman Reigns- well... at least they're not high flyers- Oh. Crap. The Usos.

Well, at least all white wrestlers are technical wrestlers like Bret Hart- Wait, no, Hulk Hogan. Well, all powerhouses then- crap, no, John Morrison. So, all flashy, then- damn, no, the Miz.

But black people are consistent! They're all strong men, like Big E and Bobby Lash- wait, no, Kofi. Well, exception, I'm sure- shoot, no, Rich Swan.

At least all asians are fast flyers- crap. Yokozuna. Hurm...

But hey, they all ACT right, right? I mean, every European guy is a pompous- wait, Shaemus. Cesaro. Jack. The Bulldog.

Well, every white guy acts like Hulk- err, Stone Co-... John Cena?

But all asians are angry and antagon-... Shinske.

Huh. Well, uh... I dunno. I got nothing.

Yeah, sighting a few differences really emphasis the fact that Vince has been stereotyping since the 80s.

It is also why guys like Guerrero and Benoit had to turn to steroid to stack on muscle and why strong style is associated with Japanese workers, British wrestlers associated with catch/technical style, Mexican wrestlers with the Lucha style and Americans most associated with the Flair and Hogan American styles of wrestling. You are either a worker (Flair) or a showman (Hogan). Less prevalent today then it use to be, but still totally a thing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Anderson Silva could be Iron Fist.

Should have cast Conor McGregor or Jon Jones.

 

[Nayt Navare]

Yeah, sighting a few differences really emphasis the fact that Vince has been stereotyping since the 80s.

It is also why guys like Guerrero and Benoit had to turn to steroid to stack on muscle and why strong style is associated with Japanese workers, British wrestlers associated with catch/technical style, Mexican wrestlers with the Lucha style and Americans most associated with the Flair and Hogan American styles of wrestling. You are either a worker (Flair) or a showman (Hogan). Less prevalent today then it use to be, but still totally a thing.

Sorry man, I gotta disagree. Things have changed, drastically, with the megastars always seeming to buck convention.

 

[Endeavor]

Bummed about what im reading about IF. This was the show I was looking towards the most when they were announced.

Also, worried about Inhumans, since Buck was moved to take the reins on that.

 

[The Overlord]

Yes you could've. Go look at the original Iron Fist run. It's pretty much a street level book. It was very much a mixture of martial arts and mysticsm as it was a grimy, gritty New York City. The same with original Luke Cage (everyone always says it was too silly and outdated, but the first couple of issues were set in a grimy Harlem).

This is so disappointing. All I wanted was Marvel to get Luke Cage and Iron Fist right. How hard is that? It seems like they make so dumb creative choices when it comes to picking what elements to keep and what not to, and it seems like SJW pressure has affected both series as well. Cage was pretty much nothing like his comic counterpart (both personality-wise and backstory -wise), and now it seems like the same for Iron Fist.

How hard is it to give him a costume like below? How hard is it to get the action scenes right for a character whose main gimmick is being a martial artist kung fu guy? I don't know why Daredevil can get it right but not these two.

I think the problem is, Luke Cage and Iron Fist are based on 70s era fads, while Daredevil became a more timeless noir tale, while Jessica Jones is a very modern character.

I do not have a problem with the way Colter played Luke, modern Luke Cage is married with a child, he is far more mature then his younger more brash counter part from the 70s. I think the "jive talking angry black man" would have been harder sell nowadays and I don't think the modern version of Luke is written that way. I think making the most prominent African American hero charge for his services, while the white super heroes save people for free, would have been a hard sell, IMO.

Its hard to say something should stick with the source material, when the source material radically changes over time.

The problems I had with the Luke Cage have to do with pacing and Diamonback being a silly villain, but I think Luke Cage is fine, its a more of the modern Luke rather then the 70s Luke (who is dated more ways then one).

Iron Fist is a take on Kung Fu the series, so I think its a bit dated.

I think Iron Fist was in an impossible situation, either people would see it as racist due to Danny being a "white savior" or people will be mad that Danny would be presented as a Asian stereotype.

That is why I do not care about who was cast as Danny, but I think Iron Fist would have been harder to do then the other Defenders.

How I'd do it:

I'd go a different way. Don't do the 'billionaire son returns and villains took over the company' plot line that we already saw in Batman Begins and season one of Arrow.
Get a fight choreographer that knows the difference between ninjutsu and kung fu. Throw every bit of $ at Woo Ping to do the fighting.

The villain of the series or first half would be The Yellow Claw or a version of it. He run an organization that is under Ms Gao. The Yellow Claw would also be our stand in for Fu Manchu and be the father of Shang Chi, who is the champion of the organization. (Cant use Fu Manchu for rights reasons and cultural sensitivity reasons). Danny Rand returns from Kun Lun to stop Yellow Claw because he also is from Kun Lun and it's their responsibility. Rand comes to NY...takes out several YC spots and fights Chi a few times before making him realize that his father is evil and together they take down the Yellow Claw.

I think Yellow Claw needs a new name and new look before he is ready for online streaming.

I will say teaming up Danny with Chi could neutralize some of the criticism about the casting and an Asian hero can balance out some of the Asian villains.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Sorry man, I gotta disagree. Things have changed, drastically, with the megastars always seeming to buck convention.

The megastars don't make up the vast majority of wrestlers, do they? And we still have wrestlers booked from the middle east as straight up "evil" stereotypes. Actually, where the wrestler is booked from definitely plays into their "style", which is again racial ethnic stereotyping. Sheamus has to be the way he is because he is Irish.

Which actually ties well into the idea of Iron Fist "having" to be Asian.

 

[Guts]

Not only worse than them, I mean, the 0% pretty much says that this is the worst live action comicbook show on RT or something.
It's like we are living in some alternate universe.

But yeah, as I said, this is based only on the first 6 episodes.
The scary thing will be if it really turns out to be an amazing show with the rest 7 episodes, but the negative critic reviews based on the 6 episodes just still be there.

Or the show could get worse with the rest of the episodes. The general opinion on Luke Cage is that it went downhill after Cottonmouth died.

 

[Dark Raven]

Then he was the wrong choice to play him. I get he might not want to associate 'black' with 'urban', but they easily could've kept it like the comics and write him in a non-stereotypical way.

I was skeptical that Jessica Jones's showrunner got to pick the Luke Cage actor and define his character in that show before he got his own. I was further skeptical when I saw this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrADpDM5As) with him wearing a shirt saying "hardcore metrosexual". I didn't think anything of it, because he's an actor and he would and should be able to play characters different from him. Then after reading this interview after the show came out (http://mcuexchange.com/mike-colter-describes-his-initial-concern-with-playing-luke-cage/), it pretty much validated my concerns:



He "cringed" at the very idea of the character and most importanly, didn't want to do anything physical, which makes absolutely NO sense when it's about a superhero you're playing. Why even sign on in the first place? No wonder Luke was nothing like the comics, and no wonder the fight scenes sucked in the show. It was all thanks to him.

Imagine the following:

Marvel are wanting to hire Robert Downey Jr for Iron Man back in 2008. But he says:

I don't want to do anything physical. This character makes me cringe. I want to play him as I want to, not how the character is. I don't want to wear any armour or shoot any energy blasts. Also, flying is so passe. I also don't like the idea of him being an inventor or a billionaire playboy. Make him a used car salesman instead.

Oh, and also I don't want to go by the name Iron Man. That sounds so corny.

But Marvel decide, despite all this, they want to hire him anyway, even with all the radical changes.

And then, just to show how silly the idea of Iron Man is, he throws us a bone with this brief nod to the armour by putting this thing on:

And he says "You look like a damn fool!".

And everyone agrees that Iron Man in armour would've look to silly to work on the big screen.

Anything could look silly if you choose the worst possible representation of it and make it look ridiculous.

I agree that Mike Colter was probably not the right person if he wanted so much changed. Why did they have to cast him at all costs?

Even Iron Fist's costume could look silly if they executed it in a poor way. But someone with imagination could probably come up with a badass but faithful representation of the classic look.

 

[ImSGirl95]

Or the show could get worse with the rest of the episodes. The general opinion on Luke Cage is that it went downhill after Cottonmouth died.

It can't get any worse with a 0% score on RT.
And yeah, I agree on Cottonmouth. He was such a great character, and the actor nailed the part.

 

[C. Lee]

Don't worry guys....Shang-Chi is going to be played by Michael B. Jordon.....all's good.

 

[TheVileOne]

It can't get any worse with a 0% score on RT.
And yeah, I agree on Cottonmouth. He was such a great character, and the actor nailed the part.

Keep in mind that score is based on only a handful of reviews and people who have only seen the first six episodes.

 

[Nayt Navare]

The megastars don't make up the vast majority of wrestlers, do they? And we still have wrestlers booked from the middle east as straight up "evil" stereotypes. Actually, where the wrestler is booked from definitely plays into their "style", which is again racial ethnic stereotyping. Sheamus has to be the way he is because he is Irish.

Which actually ties well into the idea of Iron Fist "having" to be Asian.

Shaemus isn't "the way he is" because he's Irish. He's the way he is because he's a big buff guy, and for Middle Eastern characters, they've come a long way, with neither Davari or Mahal being played as the evil Middle Easterners because of their race.

Either way.... Danny Rand should be white. FITE ME EVERYONE. ��