Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[The Overlord]

Imagine the following:

Marvel are wanting to hire Robert Downey Jr for Iron Man back in 2008. But he says:

I don't want to do anything physical. This character makes me cringe. I want to play him as I want to, not how the character is. I don't want to wear any armour or shoot any energy blasts. Also, flying is so passe. I also don't like the idea of him being an inventor or a billionaire playboy. Make him a used car salesman instead.

Oh, and also I don't want to go by the name Iron Man. That sounds so corny.

But Marvel decide, despite all this, they want to hire him anyway, even with all the radical changes.

And then, just to show how silly the idea of Iron Man is, he throws us a bone with this brief nod to the armour by putting this thing on:

And he says "You look like a damn fool!".

And everyone agrees that Iron Man in armour would've look to silly to work on the big screen.

Anything could look silly if you choose the worst possible representation of it and make it look ridiculous.

I agree that Mike Colter was probably not the right person if he wanted so much changed. Why did they have to cast him at all costs?

Even Iron Fist's costume could look silly if they executed it in a poor way. But someone with imagination could probably come up with a badass but faithful representation of the classic look.

But here is the problem people on this thread keep ignoring, Iron Man was not a character linked to a fad like Cage and Iron Fist were.

Really I think Colter is playing the modern version of the character rather then the one from the 70s, Luke Cage has not worn his 70s era costume since the early 90s.

The whole "keep true to the source material" argument doesn't work, if the writers have changed the character over time. Cage got at least two different revamps one from the early 1990s and one from the early 2000s, so even in the comics the character is different then he was in the 70s. Adherence to source material should not mean trying to outdated concepts relevant past their prime.

This like saying in movie, Dazzler would still be obsessed with Disco in 2017, unless she is comic relief or a time traveler, that would not work, Disco has been dead for 40 years.

Again I think Luke was fine in his show, I think the problems with that show were down to pacing and Diamondback being a cartoon villain.

But I still think despite its flaws, Luke Cage would have been easier to adapt to the Netflix model then Iron Fist is.

Despite some fans complaints, Luke Cage was well reviewed, Iron Fist was poorly reviewed because its concept did not fit with Netflix's model.

 

[Dark Raven]

If they had an Indian Iron Fist, then he would neither be a white saviour nor racially stereotyping all Asians as martial artists. They missed their opportunity.

 

[ImSGirl95]

Keep in mind that score is based on only a handful of reviews and people who have only seen the first six episodes.

Yes, that's exactly what I was moaning about in my last few comment here
The reviews are from the first six episodes, a little less than half of the season. And the reviews are counted in the whole Season 1 section.
And I pointed the Den Of Geek pretty negative consensus which in it says that he/they liked the sixth episode the most. Which yeah, there is a chance it will get better in the next episodes.
Also, Episode 8 is directed by Kevin Tancharoen, who directed pretty much all of AoS best episodes.

 

[Dark Raven]

If they haven't hooked viewers in within the first 6 episodes, then that is far too late and they're taking way too long. People aren't going to want to stick with it that long if they're bored. Even with a movie, if you haven't hooked someone in within the first 30 minutes to an hour, then it is too long, even if there is more of an exciting finish to the film in the last 15 minutes.

 

[Dasher10]

So who do we blame for this? The writers for failing to write decent dialog, Scott Buck for hiring the writers or Jeph Loeb for hiring Scott Buck?

 

[Darepool]

I'm deeply, deeply offended. It can't go on like this - how dare they!

#itssosooffensive
#getlaidloser
#getalife

 

[BatsDC]

So who do we blame for this? The writers for failing to write decent dialog, Scott Buck for hiring the writers or Jeph Loeb for hiring Scott Buck?

Scott Buck for execution; Marvel for the concept & lack of the fantastical.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm deeply, deeply offended. It can't go on like this - how dare they!

#itssosooffensive
#getlaidloser
#getalife

I think the fact that the show is apparently boring is a far bigger knock against it, then anything to do with how offensive it is.

Look, people would have complained no matter what, because no matter what they did with Iron Fist's casting, someone would be offended, but they couldn't even make him look cool when he was fighting.

Daredevil got one awesomeness fight scene per season, the fact the fighting in Iron Fist does not match that is a shame.

Really the gritty and realistic approach worked for Luke Cage, daredevil and Jessica Jones, but it just didn't work for Iron Fist.

I don't want to see Danny work on an Excel spreadsheet for an hour on a show about martial arts, that is too realistic.

 

[Dark Raven]

So who do we blame for this? The writers for failing to write decent dialog, Scott Buck for hiring the writers or Jeph Loeb for hiring Scott Buck?

This just sounds like people are trying to pass the buck.

 

[Dark Raven]

My concern with the bad reviews is a good portion of them are focused on Danny Rand's race which is ****ing irrelevant.

Just like how there was an uproar over Michael B Jordan as the Human Torch which shifted the focus off an otherwise perfectly good and decent film with Fant4stic which had no other problems.

 

[Darepool]

I think the fact that the show is apparently boring is a far bigger knock against it, then anything to do with how offensive it is.

Look, people would have complained no matter what, because no matter what they did with Iron Fist's casting, someone would be offended, but they couldn't even make him look cool when he was fighting.

Daredevil got one awesomeness fight scene per season, the fact the fighting in Iron Fist does not match that is a shame.

Really the gritty and realistic approach worked for Luke Cage, daredevil and Jessica Jones, but it just didn't work for Iron Fist.

I don't want to see work on an Excel spreadsheet for an hour on a show about martial arts, that is too realistic.

You are probably right on all of this. My post was directed at the 'easily offended' crusaders. Critics are mentioning the race element, so I have to believe it factored in to some degree. It's impossible to say until I see the show.

 

[Dasher10]

Scott Buck for execution; Marvel for the concept & lack of the fantastical.

It could also be Netflix for failing to provide a budget and giving us a gritty, low-fi Iron Fist series. I still mostly blame Jeph Loeb since he knew what Scott Buck did to Dexter but still hired him anyway. Marvel just proved that they're no better than Fox when Fox managed to destroy the Fantastic Four in the exact same way.

Now if Iron Fist were given a decent budget like Spartacus, Game of Thrones, The Last Ship or Taboo, then we'd be looking at something different where we'd actually get some great K'un Lun set pieces, a full Shou Lao, a real costume with a terrific stunt double, an awesome fight coreographer and no filler episodes.

 

[marcvader]

I'd blame Loeb. You can't get mad at Buck. The guy did what he wanted to do. I doubt he misrepresented his pitch to Loeb and then secretly shot something else. I damnguaruntee Feige wouldn't have let a director/showrunner deviate. Loeb and the TV division were onboard with that vision.

 

[Dasher10]

Just like how there was an uproar over Michael B Jordan as the Human Torch which shifted the focus off an otherwise perfectly good and decent film with Fant4stic which had no other problems.

The best part was how Jordan was the only actor who actually got the character right. (It wasn't the fault of Teller or Kebbel either since they both wanted to do a good job but Trank wanted Teller to stop showing emotion on set and Doom was written as an in name only version by Kinberg on set since Trank hated Jeremy Slater's script.)

 

[Darepool]

I'd blame Loeb. You can't get mad at Buck. The guy did what he wanted to do. I doubt he misrepresented his pitch to Loeb and then secretly shot something else. I damnguaruntee Feige wouldn't have let a director/showrunner deviate. Loeb and the TV division were onboard with that vision.

Part of me also thinks there is a mission statement from Marvel TV to distinguish themselves from the cinematic MCU with their own brand image, thus we get the steps that were taken with IF. Lost in the concept and too in love with the game plan of 'dark and gritty' realism.

Basically, EGO in doing things THEIR WAY superseded doing the character THE RIGHT WAY, which probably had more 'cinematic MCU' elements then they were comfy with.

So happy Feige no longer has to Fred Astaire around these guys. That being said DD is absolute gold.

 

[Dark Raven]

The best part was how Jordan was the only actor who actually got the character right. (It wasn't the fault of Teller or Kebbel either since they both wanted to do a good job but Trank wanted Teller to stop showing emotion on set and Doom was written as an in name only version by Kinberg on set since Trank hated Jeremy Slater's script.)

He didn't get the character right. He was serious and morose for most of the movie and quite emotionless too. People said he'd make a good Johnny Storm based on his earlier work, but he didn't even act like that in the movie. None of them got their characters right.

It could also be Netflix for failing to provide a budget and giving us a gritty, low-fi Iron Fist series. I still mostly blame Jeph Loeb since he knew what Scott Buck did to Dexter but still hired him anyway. Marvel just proved that they're no better than Fox when Fox managed to destroy the Fantastic Four in the exact same way.

Now if Iron Fist were given a decent budget like Spartacus, Game of Thrones, The Last Ship or Taboo, then we'd be looking at something different where we'd actually get some great K'un Lun set pieces, a full Shou Lao, a real costume with a terrific stunt double, an awesome fight coreographer and no filler episodes.

Lots of Kung Fu films are "low-fi" and yet they're perfectly watchable and riveting from the start. You don't need such a huge budget to do a good martial arts film. You just need vision. They can't be just having board meetings for the first 6 episodes and having such a slow burn.

 

[RaidenX]

I still believe show will deliver....

I mean how can they hire buck for Inhumans if they don't liked what he did with Iron Fist

There's no logic

 

[Dasher10]

I'd blame Loeb. You can't get mad at Buck. The guy did what he wanted to do. I doubt he misrepresented his pitch to Loeb and then secretly shot something else. I damnguaruntee Feige wouldn't have let a director/showrunner deviate. Loeb and the TV division were onboard with that vision.

And I think that's a perfectly fair criticism. I personally blame everyone.

Ted Serandos didn't pay Jeph Loeb the amount of money he needed to do it right. That's ultimately what the problem is. Serandos knew what kind of series was being made but didn't bring himself to want to actually finance another expensive TV series after Marco Polo failed to attract viewers.

Loeb already knew what Buck was giving him and he knew Buck's track record. Loeb also didn't bother to ask Ted Serandos for more money to actually get the show right despite knowing full well that Iron Fist needed more money to spend on sets, better directors/choreographers/trainers and a GCI dragon. The show was done so cheaply that the makeup artists couldn't even get orange highlights in Colleen Wing's hair. After three hits in a row, asking for more money for Iron Fist should have been an easy proposition. We didn't get that and that's on Loeb. Loeb also managed to give Scott Buck enough supervision when he certainly must have heard that there were issues during production. Based on what I've heard, Episode 5 is where it gets interesting and Episode 6 is actually really good but Loeb didn't get involved early enough to correct course despite the show filming over the course of six months. And to also make Scott Buck showrunner for a second show after seeing some seriously underwhelming work two months after filming wrapped and the episodes were in post production shows a serious lack of judgment. He should have gotten involved during the early weeks of filming the second he heard that the scripts weren't up to par and fixed them before shooting started instead of waiting until the halfway point.

Scott Buck also shares much of the blame by choosing to adapt the pre-Claremont issues when the series lacked a consistent writer. The Iron Fist getting revenge on Harold Meachum origin is possibly his least interesting arc. It's his most grounded arc which is why it was adapted but it's nowhere near as fun as what Chris Claremont and John Byrne did right when they took over. Claremont and Byrne revealed that the Ninja was working for an obscure pre-1961 Steve Ditko creation named Master Khan and assembled the Daughters of the Dragon as Danny's sidekicks before ending his series on a high note with the Steel Serpent arc. Then he got canceled but Claremont wanted to keep the character and the DOTD around so he merged them into Luke Cage. The later Brubaker/Fraction/Aja run was also great and had The Last Iron Fist Story and Seven Capital Cities of Heaven arcs. The inspiration for the second half of Season 1 appears to be Dwayne Swierczynski's The Mortal Iron Fist which was enjoyable but I'm not sure if that can make up for a lackluster first half. It sounds like Scott Buck's pitch to only bring the fantastic elements in after boring people to death did save money on the budget but the fact that it takes four episodes to do anything interesting with the series is entirely Scott Buck's fault since he didn't have any ideas about how to handle the origin story but wanted to stretch it out to save money.

Finally, the writers take a lot of blame. Scott Reynolds is the only one named on Wikipedia and it's hard to say if he was the only writer on the series or not but allegedly whoever wrote episodes 2-4 simply didn't try to make the Meachums compelling characters. Did Scott Buck ask them to take a break from martial arts and instead deal with office drama? Yes. But that's no excuse for not bringing your A game and the writers for the early episodes deserve all of the blame that they get since there is no way to fix a bad script and that will always show no matter how much you polish it.

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who it feels like were doing their jobs were the directors and cast.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'd blame Loeb. You can't get mad at Buck. The guy did what he wanted to do. I doubt he misrepresented his pitch to Loeb and then secretly shot something else. I damnguaruntee Feige wouldn't have let a director/showrunner deviate. Loeb and the TV division were onboard with that vision.

With respect to Loeb, the other shows were very successful and well received. I think they just couldn't figure out how to execute this one so it didn't upset the apple cart. But whatever.

A lot of people have been highly critical of Loeb in the past, but look, he was sort of steering the ship when these Netflix shows got off the ground two years ago. And everything pretty much came together well and strong right out of the gate.

I mean Jessica Jones won a Peabody award. Here they seemed to want to keep street level gritty realism but weren't sure how to bring together the comic book superhero elements back in as well. Part of that's on Scott Buck, but arguably part of it is on Loeb and Marvel as well.

 

[Fincher]

If they had an Indian Iron Fist, then he would neither be a white saviour nor racially stereotyping all Asians as martial artists. They missed their opportunity.

You have a sarcasm emoticon, but honestly, something alone these lines would have been the best way to minimize controversy. He could be Hispanic or American Indian.

 

[Darepool]

And so it must be for so it is written.... on the doorway to comic book adaptation paradise.

 

[Dasher10]

I still believe show will deliver....

I mean how can they hire buck for Inhumans if they don't liked what he did with Iron Fist

There's no logic

Maybe Jeph Loeb buried his head in the sand and didn't actually watch the show until it was too late since he was busy with post-production on Luke Cage, pre-production on Defenders and production on Agents of SHIELD to properly supervise Scott. Maybe it is actually a slow burn that does take a while to get good. I've hear that Episode 4 ends on a cliffhanger that sets the plot in motion.

Keep in mind that plenty of series have a difficult start. Star Trek: The Next Generation, Babylon 5 and 24 all come to mind as having been sub-par compared to what came next at around the midpoint of the first season and by all accounts, Episode 5 is where Iron Fist finds its footing and Episode 6 is actually really, really good. It's still not an excuse since Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage all had amazing pilots. And even if the show does get good, Iron Fist never gets a costume which is unforgivable.

 

[TheVileOne]

And I think that's a perfectly fair criticism. I personally blame everyone.

Ted Serandos didn't pay Jeph Loeb the amount of money he needed to do it right. That's ultimately what the problem is. Serandos knew what kind of series was being made but didn't bring himself to want to actually finance another expensive TV series after Marco Polo failed to attract viewers.

Loeb already knew what Buck was giving him and he knew Buck's track record. Loeb also didn't bother to ask Ted Serandos for more money to actually get the show right despite knowing full well that Iron Fist needed more money to spend on sets, better directors/choreographers/trainers and a GCI dragon. The show was done so cheaply that the makeup artists couldn't even get orange highlights in Colleen Wing's hair. After three hits in a row, asking for more money for Iron Fist should have been an easy proposition. We didn't get that and that's on Loeb. Loeb also managed to give Scott Buck enough supervision when he certainly must have heard that there were issues during production. Based on what I've heard, Episode 5 is where it gets interesting and Episode 6 is actually really good but Loeb didn't get involved early enough to correct course despite the show filming over the course of six months. And to also make Scott Buck showrunner for a second show after seeing some seriously underwhelming work two months after filming wrapped and the episodes were in post production shows a serious lack of judgment. He should have gotten involved during the early weeks of filming the second he heard that the scripts weren't up to par and fixed them before shooting started instead of waiting until the halfway point.

This is very interesting Dasher10. Have you heard or are you aware of things that haven't been put out there publicly regarding Iron Fist?

Now at the same time, from what I've seen and heard from Loeb in the past, he is pretty well involved and hands-on with these shows. I think where you might be mistaken is that Loeb didn't get hands on or involved, but everything I've seen in the past tells me he does a lot of work with the Netflix TV shows, from Daredevil onward. Look, even creators with good track records have misfires now and again. My guess is that Loeb and co. didn't see a problem with what Buck was doing and just let him do his thing. Maybe they were delusional about why Iron Fist isn't, wasn't working. Not sure. I'd be curious to know more on how all this went down and why they decided to take this almost no frills approach to Iron Fist.

So I guess my question is, do we know for certain Loeb wasn't involved or checking over things from the start and really waited until halfway in? I mean that could've been the plan from the beginning.

Finally, the writers take a lot of blame. Scott Reynolds is the only one named on Wikipedia and it's hard to say if he was the only writer on the series or not but allegedly whoever wrote episodes 2-4 simply didn't try to make the Meachums compelling characters. Did Scott Buck ask them to take a break from martial arts and instead deal with office drama? Yes. But that's no excuse for not bringing your A game and the writers for the early episodes deserve all of the blame that they get since there is no way to fix a bad script and that will always show no matter how much you polish it.

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who it feels like were doing their jobs were the directors and cast.

I would also say good points.

 

[Dark Raven]

You have a sarcasm emoticon, but honestly, something alone these lines would have been the best way to minimize controversy. He could be Hispanic or American Indian.

If it's a martial arts series, why shouldn't it have an Asian lead though? Not that I would've wanted Iron Fist to be Asian, but I don't see how that is stereotyping. What about all the Kung Fu movies made by the Hong Kong film industry? They have Chinese actors as the leads in their films and there's no worry about racial stereotyping there.

Whenever Jackie Chan or Jet Li make a movie, they don't worry that audiences will think it is racially stereotyping by having a Chinese person who knows martial arts.

Thus, if they were to do Shang Chi, I wouldn't see that being a problem with him being Asian.

If Marvel really wanted to do something different, they should've brought in some people from these Hong Kong-produced movies as part of the crew. Get genuine filmmakers from that very genre.

Scott Buck seems like a puzzling choice. Shouldn't they bring in someone who has experience of this if they want the best?

 

[TheVileOne]

Scott Buck has experience. But his experience as showrunner I believe was limited to the final season(s?) of Dexter. His other TV credits include things like Rome and Six Feet Under.