Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[Dasher10]

w'bout Slingshot? She even had that miniseries.

I also remember The Condor was something Stan Lee created.
Sucks he didn't get absorbed into Marvel comics.

Good point. I forgot about her since she wasn't in the second arc despite usually being a main character.

As far as Ghost Rider, I think that may depend on the fate of AoS. If AoS stays, we already have Inhumans coming later this year, and given Punisher is coming after Defenders, there is no Netflix opening for him yet either. I think Ghost Rider may materialize more quickly if AoS gets cancelled cause then Marvel will want an ABC show to replace it

But considering that Agent Carter got replaced by another Marvel show developed by Scott Buck...

Plus, I'm not sure if Ghost Rider can really be as edgy as it needs to be on ABC. It really needs to be a cable series and Marvel's Netflix slate seems more focused on street level heroes and Disney's cable channel Freeform is marketed more towards teen audiences. I really think that a partnership with El Rey for horror series could work since a show that's too violent and scary for mass audiences wouldn't play well on ABC.

And if the fight scenes in Iron Fist suck, then that's a huge issue since decent action series are able to be done cheap enough for TV. Look at 24, Spartacus, Game of Thrones, Into the Badlands, Nikita, Street Fighter: Assassin's Fist, Arrow, The Last Ship, Deadliest Warrior, Super Power Beat Down, Battlestar Galactica, etc. Even back in the 90s, you had some great fight scenes in series like Power Rangers, VIP and WMAC masters. And as the action genre has become more niche, you have a lot of stuff going direct to video so finding directors and choreographers at an acceptable price point isn't impossible. Even back in the day, Michael Dudakoff, Sonny Chiba, Gordon Liu, Jim Kelly, Cynthia Rothrock and Chuck Norris all worked on low budget action films and they were some of the best the genre had to offer. In fact, Cynthia Rothrock now runs a stage combat school where actors go to learn how to do their own stunts and if Iron Fist looks this bad, then Marvel should send Jones and Henwick down there after Defenders wraps. In 2017, there is NO EXCUSE for poor-looking fight scenes in an action series. Also, Daredevil is a martial arts action series produced by Marvel Studios and the fights looked amazing in that.

Even in the film world, the first Raid film had a budget of 1.1 million and it's an action classic. The Marvel Netflix series have twice that budget per episode. For instance, look at the best received episode of the 6 screened for critics. It was directed by RZA who's actually an action director. I also bet that there are some old 80s era action directors who are now old enough to be retired but can work cheap. If we're just talking TV directors, Sergio Mimica-Gezzan is one of the best TV directors specializing in the action genre alive today. Marvel should look at him for Season 2 or if Iron Fist gets canceled, look at him for other series since he can actually do action scenes and do them well.

 

[Dasher10]

OT: Yeah, considering that AOS is more than likely gonna get a 5th (and possibly final) season, it might be a while before we see Johnny Blaze ride his motorcycle. Personally, I'm holding out for a Moon Knight series, if only so I can understand why this character is so popular. That, or a Power Pack TV miniseries. I love the Power Pack.

Moon Knight is too tied to the Netflix heroes to be an ABC series. Plus, he has a helicopter which means that we're looking at a shorter season since the budget can't be spread too thin.

I'd be curious to hear some of what was going on behind-the-scenes with Iron Fist and why they made certain decisions.

I mean look, all signs point to the Marvel TV brass being happy with what they are seeing because they turned right around and handed Inhumans to Scott Buck. It seems after they hired Buck there was no second guessing at all. I mean that's a huge project no matter what anyone says.

I hope that the second half of Iron Fist is better than the first since Inhumans is a joint production between the film and TV divisions of Marvel Studios. It'll look bad on both Feige and Loeb if it bombs and IMAX are showing it in their theaters to finance it so it'll be a huge financial failure if mismanaged. And look at what Scott Buck did to Black Bolt's costume. There's no white in it and no cape either. I'm fine with the lack of a mask since he can't talk but has to act without speaking but the costume looks terribad. Inhumans is Game of Thrones in space (complete with incest). It's the easiest sell to audiences ever. Like, if somehow Scott Buck manages to make two relatively easy sells to audiences not work, I don't know what to say.

 

[TheVileOne]

I would say if you do Moon Knight do it 10 episodes.

But even if it's Moon Knight, people will complain about another white hero, even though he's Jewish.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Inhumans failing or Iron Fist failing will not hurt Marvel Studios in the film division. Marvel TV would, but ultimately they already have so much product in development, they can recover. Plus, I feel everyone is writing off Inhumans WAY too early. We have exactly 0 footage

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Inhumans failing or Iron Fist failing will not hurt Marvel Studios in the film division. Marvel TV would, but ultimately they already have so much product in development, they can recover. Plus, I feel everyone is writing off Inhumans WAY too early. We have exactly 0 footage

I don't have much invested in Inhumans, but I can understand writing it off rather early. Beyond Buck, it already seems like they are doing the Iron Fist thing, where they might be half-assing the concept.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't have much invested in Inhumans, but I can understand writing it off rather early. Beyond Buck, it already seems like they are doing the Iron Fist thing, where they might be half-assing the concept.

As far as costumes, maybe. But we know Lockjaw is in it, and it will be at least partly in space. I do not think they would waste the IMAX cameras just to film stuff Netflix could do. As a big fan of the FF comics, of which the Inhumans frequented, I want to see it succeed, and I won't write it off before we have something other than set pics

 

[TheVileOne]

I will be curious to see how much Lockjaw is actually integrated into the plots.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As far as costumes, maybe. But we know Lockjaw is in it, and it will be at least partly in space. I do not think they would waste the IMAX cameras just to film stuff Netflix could do. As a big fan of the FF comics, of which the Inhumans frequented, I want to see it succeed, and I won't write it off before we have something other than set pics

Well GoT technically has the direwolves... except they really don't. I'd expect something similar here with Lockjaw. But beyond that, it being "partly" in space is exactly what I suspect. And and what we will get is so more AoS, style stuff that does nothing for me.

Basically I compare all of this to GotG. Where they could have been conservative, they did the opposite. The pushed it. They embraced the absurdity. If you are already afraid of the costumes for a group of "aliens", I have little hope you are going to get it.

I am hoping that Iron Fist ends up doing that in the second half of the season. Give Danny a worthwhile challenge and brings on the mysticism.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Moon Knight is to tied to the Netflix heroes to be an ABC series. Plus, he has a helicopter which means that we're looking at a shorter season since the budget can't be spread too thin.

Yeah, I'd figure it would be a Netflix series, considering how popular the character is. Additionally, I don't know how integral a helicopter is to the character (since again, I'm not a fan, but just a curious bystander) but if it isn't important, there's a good chance they would cut it from editing.

I would say if you do Moon Knight do it 10 episodes.

But even if it's Moon Knight, people will complain about another white hero, even though he's Jewish.

And those same people complaining have probably never read a Moon Knight comic book.

"To offset this and appeal to that crowd, let's change the character to Egyptian, since y'know, Moon Knight worships Khonshu, Egyptian God of Vengeance. Clever, huh" :P

(FYI, I'm being sarcastic)

 

[2kt09]

And if the fight scenes in Iron Fist suck, then that's a huge issue since decent action series are able to be done cheap enough for TV. Look at 24, Spartacus, Game of Thrones, Into the Badlands, Nikita, Street Fighter: Assassin's Fist, Arrow, The Last Ship, Deadliest Warrior, Super Power Beat Down, Battlestar Galactica, etc...In 2017, there is NO EXCUSE for poor-looking fight scenes in an action series. Also, Daredevil is a martial arts action series produced by Marvel Studios and the fights looked amazing in that.

None of the Marvel shows have been noticeably bad in the action dept, including the ABC ones. DD s1, in particular, was done by the tv equivalent of Snyder...so it would be unusual if DeKnight's team ended up crapping the bed with that. Plus, the fight/stunt coordinator of both seasons worked on Deadpool ("leaked" clip and the actual movie).

Even in the film world, the first Raid film had a budget of 1.1 million and it's an action classic. The Marvel Netflix series have twice that budget per episode. For instance, look at the best received episode of the 6 screened for critics. It was directed by RZA who's actually an action director. I also bet that there are some old 80s era action directors who are now old enough to be retired but can work cheap. If we're just talking TV directors, Sergio Mimica-Gezzan is one of the best TV directors specializing in the action genre alive today. Marvel should look at him for Season 2 or if Iron Fist gets canceled, look at him for other series since he can actually do action scenes and do them well.

Never heard of Mimica-Gezzan.
Lol, I laughed when people claimed RZA made the best IF ep because the one and only other thing he directed was heavy on special effects (CG and practical) and less actual choreographed fighting. RZA is the guy to call if you wanna do a Big Trouble in Little China reboot/remake.
I'm pretty taken aback by the whole the action sucks since they got the Marco Polo coordinator, which I was rooting for to be attached...so dunno how he went to waste.

 

[TheVileOne]

If Moon Knight becomes a series, just don't make Scott Buck Showrunner.

 

[Dark Raven]

Scott Buck's Moon Knight will not go round with a bare chest but with a bare butt because he'll spend his day mooning.

 

[2kt09]

Scott Buck's Moon Knight will not go round with a bare chest but with a bare butt because he'll spend his day mooning.

Chivalry is dead.

 

[RockSP]

Even in the film world, the first Raid film had a budget of 1.1 million and it's an action classic. The Marvel Netflix series have twice that budget per episode.

1.1 million probably stretches a lot further in Indonesia. Plus the people involved I'm sure were much more seasoned than Finn "6 weeks to train" Jones.

 

[Dasher10]

1.1 million probably stretches a lot further in Indonesia. Plus the people involved I'm sure were much more seasoned than Finn "6 weeks to train" Jones.

Yep. The entire cast were made up of stunt actors. I would rather have had an unknown who got his start as a stuntman in place of Finn Jones. Why? because somebody with a black belt and stunt experience would be more visually interesting in an action series.

 

[Surfer]

I know this won't happen, but if Marvel and Netflix feel the 2nd half of Iron Fist is exciting and would change the reviewers perception of the show, they should quickly send them copies of the remaining episodes. I mean I think it is to late for those that have entered reviews in Rotten Tomatoes to change them, but if the reviewers liked the last 7 episodes a lot the word of mouth might spread and change public perception before the release. Also, I don't know how many Rotten Tomatoes reviews are typical for TV shows, but movies I believe often have over 100 from the critics. So 14 reviews does not seem like very much and it has me wondering if many of the reviewers might be stilling their tongues until after they have had a chance to see the remaining episodes.

Anyways just a couple thoughts.

Surfer

 

[TheVileOne]

Just FYI, for Daredevil, it was the first five. For Jessica Jones, Daredevil S2 and Luke Cage it was the first seven episodes. Then for Iron Fist it was the first six.

So just in general, they don't want reviewers to sample the whole season for this type of format. And that's probably because they want to control the flow of spoilers and major reveals. Plus how the season ends.

What was it for Daredevil S2? The cutoff was right before Kingpin's return and his multi-episode arc. Daredevil Season 1 was cut off before Daredevil reuniting with Stick and his first fight with Nobu and Kingpin. Nobu's reveal was basically seeding the Hand into the show.

Luke Cage was cutoff right before Diamondback came on as the new main villain after Cottonmouth was skilled.

 

[Dasher10]

Just FYI, for Daredevil, it was the first five. For Jessica Jones, Daredevil S2 and Luke Cage it was the first seven episodes. Then for Iron Fist it was the first six.

So just in general, they don't want reviewers to sample the whole season for this type of format. And that's probably because they want to control the flow of spoilers and major reveals. Plus how the season ends.

What was it for Daredevil S2? The cutoff was right before Kingpin's return and his multi-episode arc. Daredevil Season 1 was cut off before Daredevil reuniting with Stick and his first fight with Nobu and Kingpin. Nobu's reveal was basically seeding the Hand into the show.

Luke Cage was cutoff right before Diamondback came on as the new main villain after Cottonmouth was skilled.

My guess is that Zhou Cheng debuts in Episode 7 and since by following the comics, it's pretty obvious that Harold Meachum dies and Danny gets framed, that I'm guessing that Zhou Cheng is the guy who does it. We know that he's the main antagonist from interviews with Lewis Tan. One of the chief complaints with the show was the talk of there being no real antagonist and odds are that Marvel cut reviewers off right when the bad guy was going to debut. Bonus points for Episode 7 also being stated outright by a ratings board to have some truly gruesome imagery in it. I'm going to guess that extreme violence means somebody dies and I think that person has to be Harold and I'm also going to assume that he caused the plane crash that killed Danny's parents.

Daredevil Season 2 managed to get a bit weaker after Finn Cooley died right after being revealed as the head of the Irish mob since it took forever for Nobu and Schooner to be revealed as the real villains and Kingpin to return. But Daredevil was consistently interesting since in the time between, it became a courtroom drama.

I seriously hope that Iron Fist gets better. I just have low expectations after hearing that unlike Daredevil, Iron Fist didn't know what kind of show it wanted to become during its downtime and said downtime hits right in Episode 2 and lasts through Episode 4. That's called killing interest long before the audience gets the chance to care about the characters.

 

[Brian Braddock]

I would say if you do Moon Knight do it 10 episodes.

But even if it's Moon Knight, people will complain about another white hero, even though he's Jewish.

Ah, but is he as Jewish as Tony Stark though? t:

Yep. The entire cast were made up of stunt actors. I would rather have had an unknown who got his start as a stuntman in place of Finn Jones. Why? because somebody with a black belt and stunt experience would be more visually interesting in an action series.

Yep, I was rooting for Christian Howard (Ken from 'Street Fighter: Assassins Fist') to get the role.

 

[Brian Braddock]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=500273

Makes for a fun read, retrospectively.

 

[Surfer]

Just FYI, for Daredevil, it was the first five. For Jessica Jones, Daredevil S2 and Luke Cage it was the first seven episodes. Then for Iron Fist it was the first six.

So just in general, they don't want reviewers to sample the whole season for this type of format. And that's probably because they want to control the flow of spoilers and major reveals. Plus how the season ends.

What was it for Daredevil S2? The cutoff was right before Kingpin's return and his multi-episode arc. Daredevil Season 1 was cut off before Daredevil reuniting with Stick and his first fight with Nobu and Kingpin. Nobu's reveal was basically seeding the Hand into the show.

Luke Cage was cutoff right before Diamondback came on as the new main villain after Cottonmouth was skilled.

Well I certainly get them wanting to control spoilers, and generally I would agree with trying to keep this information secret. However, in this case having the reviews come in Negative as a result of only allowing Critics to see a partial sampling of the entire product is damaging the shows Hype and possible over all success. I feel these reviews can do quite a bit more damage then if people were to learn about what things happen later on in the show. I mean the point of keeping certain parts of the show a secret after all becomes irrelevant if no one wants to see it.

Surfer

 

[RaidenX]

New spot
http://redringsideseats.tumblr.com/tagged/Iron-Fist

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Even with the (varying) success of the other Netflix shows, I've never been sold on Loeb as the marvel tv overseer. He is in no way shape or form an analog for Feige. He's a writer, not a show runner or EP.

This looks like a big but avoidable **** up to me. At least it's with a character I've never given a damn about and most have never heard of.

 

[metaphysician]

Plus, I'm not sure if Ghost Rider can really be as edgy as it needs to be on ABC.

Why not? They let Ghost Rider be turned into a brutal murderer on ABC.



( I am impressed by the SFX quality they pulled for Ghost Rider on a tiny budget. I am *not* impressed by their story choices. )

 

[rogue trooper]

I know this won't happen, but if Marvel and Netflix feel the 2nd half of Iron Fist is exciting and would change the reviewers perception of the show, they should quickly send them copies of the remaining episodes. I mean I think it is to late for those that have entered reviews in Rotten Tomatoes to change them, but if the reviewers liked the last 7 episodes a lot the word of mouth might spread and change public perception before the release. Also, I don't know how many Rotten Tomatoes reviews are typical for TV shows, but movies I believe often have over 100 from the critics. So 14 reviews does not seem like very much and it has me wondering if many of the reviewers might be stilling their tongues until after they have had a chance to see the remaining episodes.

Anyways just a couple thoughts.

Surfer

That would be the wise thing for them to do.