Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[TheVileOne]

I'm taking about the entirety of his career, not just the Netflix shows. I'll take the blame for the confusion. I've been reading comics for a long time, anything with Loeb's name on it is typically lacking in quality, to be nice.

I can name several Loeb stories that I think are quite good, but then again quality is subjective:

Batman: Haunted Knight
Batman: The Long Halloween
Batman: Dark Victory
Spider-Man: Blue
Wolverine/Gambit

IMHO, The Long Halloween, maybe not perfect, but I think many would agree it's a seminal Batman story. Loeb and Tim Sale in the mid-to-late-90s early 00s were a tremendous duo.

 

[Darepool]

So if the first three are good you are calling that an outlier? So one out of four are bad and the other three are overwhelmingly good and he was not involved at all? IMHO that makes no sense.

My problem is it seems the development of the show needed 'more time in the oven'. Loeb is entitled to a miss, but just because he's had 4 excellent seasons to date doesn't mean he's immune to take blame here. I have no idea if that's fair or not, but it certainly goes with the territory of running Marvel TV. If the Defenders delivers it'll be seen in a different context obviously.

Perhaps they were in a race to put this out before the Defenders, but then that would speak to a bigger issue beyond Loeb. I see him as the guy who's job it is to ensure quality control, because ultimately the (Scott) Buck stops with him. That's not to say he would be the only one to blame either.

 

[McSir]

I can name several Loeb stories that I think are quite good, but then again quality is subjective:

Batman: Haunted Knight
Batman: The Long Halloween
Batman: Dark Victory
Spider-Man: Blue
Wolverine/Gambit

IMHO, The Long Halloween, maybe not perfect, but I think many would agree it's a seminal Batman story. Loeb and Tim Sale in the mid-to-late-90s early 00s were a tremendous duo.

I like Spider-Man: Blue well enough. Not great, but it's fine. But I, personally, find that a majority of Loeb's stuff is a really poor story crafted around the opportunity for the great artists he works with to draw multiple villains. All of Batman stuff with Tim Sale suffers from this. Again, that's just me.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

AV club gave first 6 episodes a C-

Had Netflix rolled out Iron Fist first, its unsteadiness would be forgivable; this is a process, after all. But it’s actually the final step before a huge showdown, so it can’t afford to buckle under the pressure. And yet, with all that riding on it, the first half of the season is just a checked box. Filler episodes are one thing, but right now Iron Fist looks like a filler season.

http://www.avclub.com/review/blandness-iron-fists-greatest-enemy-251943

 

[kguillou]

I dont think Loeb had very much input, to be honest. He's just the lucky SOB who gets to sit in a big chair and say "sure. Lets go with that." And then he collects his fat check. Daredevil was awesome because Steven D. "Spartactus" Knight is awesome, JJ was great because Rosenburg had a vision and knew what she was doing. Luke Cage was good because Coker had a vision. All Loeb did was let them run with it.

Lets not forget Loeb is one of the main driving forces behind Heroes' freefall descent into oblivion after its amazing first season when he was a creative component on that show. He's easily written some of the worst, offensively bad comics of the 2000's (pretty much everything besides Batman Hush and maybe Spiderman Blue). I dont think DD, JJ and LC wouldve been at the quality they were if Loeb was really putting in his creative input.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

I dont think Loeb had very much input, to be honest. He's just the lucky sob who gets to sit in a big chair and say "sure. Lets go with that." And then he collects his fat check. Daredev was awesome because Steven D. "Spartactus" Knight is awesome, JJ was great because Rosenburg had a vision amd knew what she was doing. Luke Cage was good because Coker had a vision. All Loeb did was let them run with it.

Lets not forget Loeb is one of the main driving forces behind Heroes' freefall descent into oblivion after its amazing first season when he was a creative component on that show. He's easily written some of the worst, offensively bad comics of the 2000's (pretty much everything besides Batman Hush). I dont think DD, JJ and LC wouldve been at the quality they were if Loeb was really putting in his creative input.

I feel like Drew Goddard did more for s1 being good than his replacement. Goddard mapped the whole first (and maybe second also) season out before he left.

 

[Big Bang]

And in front of Chinatown - a white blonde dude. Absolutely nonsensical is not how I would describe it.

While ignoring the visual symbolism of Danny walking between two worlds, where he is an outsider to both.

Yes, these hysterical arguments are just that. Nonsensical. Because we all know how individual attributes and context simply don't matter.

 

[McSir]

I dont think Loeb had very much input, to be honest. He's just the lucky SOB who gets to sit in a big chair and say "sure. Lets go with that." And then he collects his fat check. Daredevil was awesome because Steven D. "Spartactus" Knight is awesome, JJ was great because Rosenburg had a vision and knew what she was doing. Luke Cage was good because Coker had a vision. All Loeb did was let them run with it.

This is what I'm saying though. Loeb hired Buck--who had no vision--and subsequently had no vision to cover for the guy who had no vision.

 

[Zarex]

While ignoring the visual symbolism of Danny walking between two worlds, where he is an outsider to both.

Yes, these hysterical arguments are just that. Nonsensical. Because we all know how individual attributes and context simply don't matter.

A lot of very smart folks have raised these very issues in reviews, and I'm pretty sure the folks at Marvel will listen and learn from this kerfuffle. Maybe Loeb and company could have pulled of a "White guy travels to Asia to learn an Asian discipline and becomes the greatest ever" a few decades ago, but this would have been tough to pull off nowadays even if the show was great.

 

[RockSP]

Loeb hired Buck--who had no vision--and subsequently had no vision to cover for the guy who had no vision.

 

[Dark Raven]

They had to balance it out: someone who could see for the DD series, and someone who was blind for Iron Fist.

 

[Big Bang]

A lot of very smart folks have raised these very issues in reviews, and I'm pretty sure the folks at Marvel will listen and learn from this kerfuffle. Maybe Loeb and company could have pulled of a "White guy travels to Asia to learn an Asian discipline and becomes the greatest ever" a few decades ago, but this would have been tough to pull off nowadays even if the show was great.

Nonsense. A white person can travel to Asia today to engage in free cultural exchange just as easily as they could in the past. That whole argument is predicated on the fixation that the character is white, and literally no other reason. We'll ignore the moment that this particular character himself has Asiatic heritage, because apparently you have to be a racial purest in some sense to be able to have mastery of some kind of foreign art.

Let's take your argument and turn it on its head for a moment. "Black guy goes to Europe to learn a European discipline and becomes the greatest ever". Better yet. "Black guy is forcibly brought to Europe and ends up learning a European discipline and becomes the greatest ever." From the logic of these people, that black character HAS to be changed to white to reflect the setting. Never mind that the black characters individual talent or attributes, it his race that clearly defines him according to their world view.

These people literally come off sounding like they endear themselves to racial and cultural segregation.

 

[Zarex]

Nonsense. A white person can travel to Asia today to engage in free cultural exchange just as easily as they could in the past. That whole argument is predicated on the fixation that the character is white, and literally no other reason. We'll ignore the moment that this particular character himself has Asiatic heritage, because apparently you have to be a racial purest in some sense to be able to have mastery of some kind of foreign art.

The problem is that we have a character that seems to be Asian in all but appearance for those not familiar with Danny's 40 plus years of comic book stories. Danny is essentially the Asian representative in Marvel's Netflix team, and that's not a good look. An Asian or mixed race Iron Fist would have been a much better fit, imo, regardless of how he was drawn in the comics.

Let's take your argument and turn it on its head for a moment. "Black guy goes to Europe to learn a European discipline and becomes the greatest ever". Better yet. "Black guy is forcibly brought to Europe and ends up learning a European discipline and becomes the greatest ever." From the logic of these people, that black character HAS to be changed to white to reflect the setting. Never mind that the black characters individual talent or attributes, it his race that clearly defines him according to their world view.

It doesn't really work in reverse because white folks are hardly underrepresented in the MCU or fiction in general.

These people literally come off sounding like they endear themselves to racial and cultural segregation.

So the folks that want to add Asian heroes to the MCU are the REAL problem. Interesting take.

 

[Big Bang]

The problem is that we have a character that seems to be Asian in all but appearance for those not familiar with Danny's 40 plus years of comic book stories. Danny is essentially the Asian representative in Marvel's Netflix team, and that's not a good look. An Asian or mixed race Iron Fist would have been a much better fit, imo, regardless of how he was drawn in the comics.

There is nothing wrong with having a white character who has inherited an Asiatic culture. They went with IF because of his history and association with these other characters. Because, people [and characters] are clearly defined solely by their race.

So the folks that want to add Asian heroes to the MCU are the REAL problem. Interesting take.

Considering they want to do so via stereotyping, because there is literally is no problem there. Right?. It's not like Marvel could create a new character, or elevate an existing Asian character who isn't a stereotype.

Because in Marvel's history, that has never worked.

 

[Big Bang]

It doesn't really work in reverse because white folks are hardly underrepresented in the MCU or fiction in general.

The sentiment is exactly the same. Writing it off or simply ignoring it merely demonstrates being selective.

 

[Darkraid]

I think its time for Finn Jones to shut up since he's doing more damage every time he opens his mouth.

 

[Zarex]

Considering they want to do so via stereotyping, because there is literally is no problem there. Right?. It's not like Marvel could create a new character, or elevate an existing Asian character who isn't a stereotype.

Asian Martial arts master is a stereotype. So is French Canadian hockey player and Kenyan long distance runner. It's not an offensive stereotype.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's your opinion.

 

[McSir]

I don't think it's particularly an offensive stereotype, but it's something that the same crowd who's complaining about white-washing (to a character who has literally always been white, FFS) would have still raised a fuss about. They're a vocal minority bent on finding the problematic aspect of anything.

 

[Big Bang]

Asian Martial arts master is a stereotype.

Yes, we already knew that.

It's not an offensive stereotype.

It is when it is being done merely for the sake of tokenism.

Seriously, I'm willing to bet there are more whites calling for Asians to be represented in the MCU than actual Asians.

 

[Zarex]

The sentiment is exactly the same. Writing it off or simply ignoring it merely demonstrates being selective.

It's not. Asian male heroes are severely under represented in the MCU, and ridiculous stories about a black guy becoming the best ever at a skill of European origin doesn't make it any better.

Marvel had a chance to go from zero to one by changing an outdated origin story and casting an Asian actor as the guy who travel to Asia to excel at an Asian skill, gets an Asian tattoo and lives in a neighborhood of Asian immigrants. Making a white guy the hero of Chinatown was a terrible, awful idea.

 

[TheVileOne]

If they are under-represented, why not make an Asian American into someone like Daredevil or Doctor Strange? If it's that important.

Ben Urich got race-bended. Jeryn Hogarth was gender-bended. Asian actor cast as Hogun in Thor. Black actor cast as Heimdall.

 

[Zarex]

That's your opinion.

Ill be sure to tell my son's Korean Tae Kwon Do instructor that he is an offensive stereotype.

 

[TheVileOne]

Ill be sure to tell my son's Korean Tae Kwon Do instructor that he is an offensive stereotype.

So does that mean former UFC middleweight champion Luke Rockhold is an offensive stereotype because he fought a former Japanese UFC champion, Lyoto Machida, and elbowed him in the head and smashed him before going on to win the title? Rockhold became a white mixed martial arts master who beat a mixed race Asian opponent and Shotokan Karate master. Is Rockhold a Mighty Whitey stereotype in real life? Is he guilty of culturally appropriating fighting techniques that originated in Asia and the orient?

 

[Zarex]

If they are under-represented, why not make an Asian American into someone like Daredevil or Doctor Strange? If it's that important.

Ben Urich got race-bended. Jeryn Hogarth was gender-bended. Asian actor cast as Hogun in Thor. Black actor cast as Heimdall.

So you think it's not so important that there are no lead Asian male superheroes in the MCU, and it doesn't look like any are coming down the road?

Both Marvel TV and film have done a good job in some areas of diversity, but I think they blew it on Iron Fist.