Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[2kt09]

I do think it's interesting that Daredevil flies under the radar in these debates. Hell, Wolverine does too.

Tbf, Wolverine porked an Asian and got a legacy character out of that.

 

[Big Bang]

Donnie Yen actually looks like Namor.

Donnie is on the older side. It would probably be easier for Brian to tone up for the role.

 

[TheVileOne]

Isn't Wolverine's whole Japan association just mighty whitey and cultural appropriation? The way Wolverine embraces Japanese culture and fancies himself like a struggling samurai trying to live his life by the code of Bushido. Tutored by a Japanese swordsman, Ogun.

 

[Zarex]

Complete absence of what though? You said put Shang Chi in there to make Danny more palatable, but what about Colleen Wing, who is Asian American?

What about the complete absence of Jewish American characters in the MCU?

It would have been great to add a star male Asian character in a similar manner to how DD season 2 added Mr. Castle. I'm sure Ms. Wing will be great.

 

[TheVileOne]

It would have been great to add a star male Asian character in a similar manner to how DD season 2 added Mr. Castle. I'm sure Ms. Wing will be great.

OK, so by that logic, shouldn't Iron Fist be great for adding Colleen Wing?

 

[Infinity9999x]

The small group clamoring for an Asian Danny is far larger than the size of the group that would have been horrified if they cast an Asian Danny. I think it would been a good move. And tokenism sucks, but complete absence is far, far worse

You are very much over-estimating the number of people who care, or are even aware of who Iron Fist is as a character.

 

[TheVileOne]

I truly wonder the people who are so gung ho about the Iron Fist thing, I seriously wonder how much of the Iron Fist comics and stories they've actually read.

 

[Zarex]

Isn't Wolverine's whole Japan association just mighty whitey and cultural appropriation? The way Wolverine embraces Japanese culture and fancies himself like a struggling samurai trying to live his life by the code of Bushido. Tutored by a Japanese swordsman, Ogun.

There's definitely a bit of that in the comics. FOX wisely toned it down in the film interpretation.

 

[Darkraid]

I feel positive he's someone who might be introduced in a possible season 2 of Iron Fist or Defenders, and then maybe get his own series like The Punisher.

They are hinting that Shang-Chi is in the second half on Iron Fist season 1 along with Steel Serpent as the villain.

 

[Zarex]

I truly wonder the people who are so gung ho about the Iron Fist thing, I seriously wonder how much of the Iron Fist comics and stories they've actually read.

I read a decent amount of his run on Power Man/Iron Fist and some of the Brubaker last Iron Fist story. Is that a sufficient amount for having an opinion?

The problem is that the Netflix shows are made for folks who may not be as comfortable with the Mighty Whitey plot that long time comic book readers are fine with.

 

[rogue trooper]

They are hinting that Shang-Chi is in the second half on Iron Fist season 1 along with Steel Serpent as the villain.

Ah!

 

[TheVileOne]

I read a decent amount of his run on Power Man/Iron Fist and some of the Brubaker last Iron Fist story. Is that a sufficient amount for having an opinion?

The problem is that the Netflix shows are made for folks who may not be as comfortable with the Mighty Whitey plot that long time comic book readers are fine with.

I mean is there any empirical data to prove that? Those people don't seem to have a problem with Batman or Arrow.

 

[Zarex]

You are very much over-estimating the number of people who care, or are even aware of who Iron Fist is as a character.

People certainly care about him now.

 

[Zarex]

I mean is there any empirical data to prove that? Those people don't seem to have a problem with Batman or Arrow.

Neither Bruce nor Oliver appropriate Asian culture.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I mean is there any empirical data to prove that? Those people don't seem to have a problem with Batman or Arrow.

Well, as I said a while back, Batman and Arrow are rarely shown to really take much of the culture of the area they go to train. In fact, especially with Batman, it's pretty clear he's only there to learn how to fight and then he leaves. Danny's powers are intrinsically linked to a different culture's beliefs. Wolverine does seem to get a pass...but maybe that's because while he tried to adopt parts of Japanese culture...he pretty much always fails miserably at it. He never achieves that inner peace. So I suppose people don't mind because he doesn't fall into the savior trope of being the white man that comes along and ends up being better at the culture than those that are from it.

That said, I need to watch the show to see how much of the White Savior trope this film show falls into, if it does. As to the whole making Danny Asian, I personally think this.

1.) It is possible to do an IF story with a white Danny that doesn't fall into White Savior tropes.
2.) It's also possible to make Danny asian and not have him be a stereotype.

I personally wouldn't have cared if they had made Danny asian because nothing about his character is race specific. But I

 

[Big Bang]

Neither Bruce nor Oliver appropriate Asian culture.

Caucasians practicing Asian culture is a problem because....?

 

[TheVileOne]

Neither Bruce nor Oliver appropriate Asian culture.

[YT]VkbBvTYDEKc[/YT]

[YT]uiaRYQlsjy4[/YT]

Batman Begins, Batman gets his whole playbook from training in ASIA with Asian NINJAS in the Himalayas.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Caucasians practicing Asian culture is a problem because....?

It's not. We're referring to the idea of the White Savior trope. Which typically displays a white person entering into a different culture, practicing that culture, usually shown to end up mastering elements or skills within the culture better than any of the people who are from that culture can, and eventually assuming a place of leadership to save the people of said culture from some threat.

That trope now has grown quite tired, and is somewhat offensive, because it's constant use is really a continuing idea of, "look at the white man who comes into a new culture and will inevitably be better at it than those within the culture!"

Some people are accusing Iron Fist of having elements of this. And some reviewers have as well.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well, as I said a while back, Batman and Arrow are rarely shown to really take much of the culture of the area they go to train. In fact, especially with Batman, it's pretty clear he's only there to learn how to fight and then he leaves. Danny's powers are intrinsically linked to a different culture's beliefs. Wolverine does seem to get a pass...but maybe that's because while he tried to adopt parts of Japanese culture...he pretty much always fails miserably at it. He never achieves that inner peace. So I suppose people don't mind because he doesn't fall into the savior trope of being the white man that comes along and ends up being better at the culture than those that are from it.

That said, I need to watch the show to see how much of the White Savior trope this film show falls into, if it does. As to the whole making Danny Asian, I personally think this.

1.) It is possible to do an IF story with a white Danny that doesn't fall into White Savior tropes.
2.) It's also possible to make Danny asian and not have him be a stereotype.

I personally wouldn't have cared if they had made Danny asian because nothing about his character is race specific. But I

Batman Begins says otherwise.

Also this episode of BTAS:

 

[Infinity9999x]

[YT]VkbBvTYDEKc[/YT]

[YT]uiaRYQlsjy4[/YT]

Batman Begins, Batman gets his whole playbook from training in ASIA with Asian NINJAS in the Himalayas.

Batman takes elements of fighting from an organization in Asia...a secret organization lead by a white man (in this version), that is apparently world wide and tries to destroy cities. Not quite the same thing.

And Bruce is shown to only take combat techniques. There's no cultural beliefs and associates with the techniques he's taken. He's not adopting a different moral code from this culture, not trying to emulate their way of life etc.

 

[2kt09]

There's definitely a bit of that in the comics. FOX wisely toned it down in the film interpretation.

Did...the MCU do the right thing in making the Mandarin at first an Arab terrorist/dictator, then a white bloke who just so happened to have a dragon tattoo?

Honestly, I wonder if the season ends up building up the real Mandarin, since there's apparently a 3rd one...

 

[Zarex]

Caucasians practicing Asian culture is a problem because....?

It's not. It's a problem if you are using Caucasians as replacements for actual Asians, as was the case when Danny was first created in the comics.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Batman Begins says otherwise.

Also this episode of BTAS:

That episode of BTAS falls closer to that than Begins, as I addressed above. Even here though, we don't see Bruce trying to mold his entire life around these principles. He take some of them, but he still dresses up as a bat, not a ninja. He's not styling his mansion in the style of a Dojo etc.

Wolverine is a character that falls closer to trying to live in the way that a different culture would want him to. But as I said, I think he gets a pass because....he constantly fails at it. He never achieves the inner peace and sense of balance a samurai is supposed to have. So by that very nature, he doesn't fall into the white savior trope.

 

[TheVileOne]

That episode of BTAS falls closer to that than Begins, as I addressed above. Even here though, we don't see Bruce trying to mold his entire life around these principles. He take some of them, but he still dresses up as a bat, not a ninja. He's not styling his mansion in the style of a Dojo etc.

Except in one episode, Batman is basically seen as the preferred son and student of his Asian sensei is he not? He's the one with honor unlike his rival, the Japanese ninja who is a traitor to their sensei's teachings.

 

[Zarex]

[YT]VkbBvTYDEKc[/YT]

[YT]uiaRYQlsjy4[/YT]

Batman Begins, Batman gets his whole playbook from training in ASIA with Asian NINJAS in the Himalayas.

Liam Neeson is an Asian NINJA? Cool!!

From what I remember, Bruce gets trained and never looks back at the Himalayas in Nolan's film