Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[TheVileOne]

So you think it's not so important that there are no lead Asian male superheroes in the MCU, and it doesn't look like any are coming down the road?

No. I think it's more important there is no Jewish male superhero in the MCU and it doesn't look like one's coming down the road.

I mean, Iron Fist has Jessica Henwick as Colleen Wing, a prominent Asian American female from the comics. So I mean, it's not like they aren't doing anything at all...

Both Marvel TV and film have done a good job in some areas of diversity, but I think they blew it on Iron Fist.

If they are doing a good job, they are doing a good job.

 

[Dasher10]

I dont think Loeb had very much input, to be honest. He's just the lucky SOB who gets to sit in a big chair and say "sure. Lets go with that." And then he collects his fat check. Daredevil was awesome because Steven D. "Spartactus" Knight is awesome, JJ was great because Rosenburg had a vision and knew what she was doing. Luke Cage was good because Coker had a vision. All Loeb did was let them run with it.

Lets not forget Loeb is one of the main driving forces behind Heroes' freefall descent into oblivion after its amazing first season when he was a creative component on that show. He's easily written some of the worst, offensively bad comics of the 2000's (pretty much everything besides Batman Hush and maybe Spiderman Blue). I dont think DD, JJ and LC wouldve been at the quality they were if Loeb was really putting in his creative input.

Jeph Loeb allegedly has a high level of involvement with all Marvel Studios properties on TV. The man runs half the MCU and honestly, he's managed to produce a stinker and bring the whole brand down. He hired Scott Buck and let him drive the MCU into the ground only a few months before Defenders and a year from Infinity War.

Could Jeph have managed to step in sooner and provide more direction for Scott? Yes. But he waited until a few episodes were filmed before correcting course despite knowing Scott Buck's track record with Dexter. Scott Buck did the legwork to ruining a popular character but Jeph Loeb deserves much of the blame for hiring a showrunner who lacked vision.

Can a martial arts TV series work? Absolutely. Look at Into the Badlands. It's a post-nuclear kung-fu western and it's an amazing show that's unlike anything else on TV right now. It's what Iron Fist should have been.

 

[Mike Murdock]

If they are under-represented, why not make an Asian American into someone like Daredevil or Doctor Strange? If it's that important.

I do think it's interesting that Daredevil flies under the radar in these debates. Hell, Wolverine does too.

So you think it's not so important that there are no lead Asian male superheroes in the MCU, and it doesn't look like any are coming down the road?

However, there is an Asian female lead on an MCU TV show and two Asian males cast in prominent supporting roles in Inhumans (plus, another Asian female supporting role in both Agents of SHIELD and Iron Fist). Hell, people think Colleen is a standout for the first six episodes from what I've seen, so I don't think it's fair to ignore the fact that they made a strong character people can appreciate and even related to even if she isn't the main character.

 

[Darepool]

Seriously, I'm willing to bet there are more whites calling for Asians to be represented in the MCU than actual Asians.

Made me think of this:

Omg, disgusting! Check.Your.Priveledge.

 

[Mike Murdock]

No. I think it's more important there is no Jewish male superhero in the MCU and it doesn't look like one's coming down the road.

Well, there are a lot of calls for a Moon Knight show, fwiw.

Robbie Reyes on Agents of SHIELD is probably the most prominent Hispanic character, fwiw. Either that or Luis from Ant-Man.

 

[Zarex]

So does that mean former UFC middleweight champion Luke Rockhold is an offensive stereotype because he fought a former Japanese UFC champion, Lyoto Machida, and elbowed him in the head and smashed him before going on to win the title? Rockhold became a white mixed martial arts master who beat a mixed race Asian opponent and Shotokan Karate master. Is Rockhold a Mighty Whitey stereotype in real life? Is he guilty of culturally appropriating fighting techniques that originated in Asia and the orient?

I have no problem with white martial artists. Nor do I clutch my pearls at the thought of white rappers. But we're talking fiction here, and it's not shocking that a white character who appropriates Asian culture, body art, philosophy etc. would not be embraced when actual Asians are underrepresented within said fictional universe. Im glad that thoughtful reviewers are calling Marvel out for this, and hopefully they will be smarter going forward.

 

[Big Bang]

It's not. Asian male heroes are severely under represented in the MCU,

change for the sake of change just to placate the vocal (but small) crowd of people who are clamoring for this is not change for the good. Again, that is literally the dictionary definition of tokenism.

and ridiculous stories about a black guy becoming the best ever at a skill of European origin doesn't make it any better.

I'm sure flat out ignoring the racial undertones is perfectly acceptable though. Selectiveness is selective.

Marvel had a chance to go from zero to one

No, Marvel had the chance to go to -1 by engaging in tokenism, but wisely chose not to.

an Asian actor as the guy who travel to Asia to excel at an Asian skill, gets an Asian tattoo and lives in a neighborhood of Asian immigrants

There are quite a bit of racial and cultural tones of segregation in there.

Making a white guy the hero of Chinatown was a terrible, awful idea.

and here I thought Danny's journey was about revenge against the man whose actions lead to his parents being killed. I must have missed a few chapters dealing with his colonialist crusades.

 

[Big Bang]

Made me think of this:

Omg, disgusting! Check.Your.Priveledge.

We have a winner.

 

[rogue trooper]

So you think it's not so important that there are no lead Asian male superheroes in the MCU, and it doesn't look like any are coming down the road?

Both Marvel TV and film have done a good job in some areas of diversity, but I think they blew it on Iron Fist.

Why should it have to be Iron Fist? Why not Namor? Why not Nightwing? Why not Adam Warlock or Shazam?

 

[Dasher10]

Well, there are a lot of calls for a Moon Knight show, fwiw.

Robbie Reyes on Agents of SHIELD is probably the most prominent Hispanic character, fwiw. Either that or Luis from Ant-Man.

Yep. I'm seeing a lot of people who want Moon Knight and Ghost Rider series and there are plenty of people wanting Black Widow and War Machine films. Elektra, Shang Chi and Blade are also popular choices.

I seem to be the only person who wants Black Knight in the MCU (and I will confess that a Black Knight film would be mostly flashbacks of previous Black Knights with no sequel) and honestly, that one presumably won't happen.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Jeph Loeb allegedly has a high level of involvement with all Marvel Studios properties on TV. The man runs half the MCU and honestly, he's managed to produce a stinker and bring the whole brand down. He hired Scott Buck and let him drive the MCU into the ground only a few months before Defenders and a year from Infinity War.

That's pretty over-dramatic. Iron Fist isn't going to hurt the Marvel Brand all that much, because Marvel has earned more than enough goodwill for people to overlook it. Heck, I doubt it'll do much to hurt The Defenders. JJ, DD, and LC were all huge hits, people will watch Defenders for those three alone. They won't care if IF's show was crappy.

So all in all, no IF is barely going to dent MCU's brand.

 

[Big Bang]

Why should it have to be Iron Fist? Why not Namor? Why not Nightwing?

I think Namor would be perfect.

 

[Dasher10]

I think Namor would be perfect.

And I concur.

 

[Zarex]

No. I think it's more important there is no Jewish male superhero in the MCU and it doesn't look like one's coming down the road.

I'm pulling for Marc Spector and Ben Grimm in Phase IV

I mean, Iron Fist has Jessica Henwick as Colleen Wing, a prominent Asian American female from the comics. So I mean, it's not like they aren't doing anything at all...

I love the MCU and I hate it when they falter. I was disappointed Shang Chi was not in the series, and I think a kick ass Chinese character may have made Danny more palatable. Oh well, I will find out myself this week.

 

[Big Bang]

And I concur.

I doubt there would be many who wouldn't.

Namor could easily be the son of an Asian fisherman, since they exist the world over along with fisherman from other regions. It wouldn't be forced in the slightest, but above also provides a level of uniqueness.

 

[TheVileOne]

I have no problem with white martial artists. Nor do I clutch my pearls at the thought of white rappers. But we're talking fiction here, and it's not shocking that a white character who appropriates Asian culture, body art, philosophy etc. would not be embraced when actual Asians are underrepresented within said fictional universe. Im glad that thoughtful reviewers are calling Marvel out for this, and hopefully they will be smarter going forward.

I'm curious why it's so much more important if it's fictional characters? I mean they are just fiction at the end of the day. Why is the race so important?

 

[rogue trooper]

I think Namor would be perfect.

Well, The Shredder himself, Brian Tee, has expressed interest.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm pulling for Marc Spector and Ben Grimm in Phase IV



I love the MCU and I hate it when they falter. I was disappointed Shang Chi was not in the series, and I think a kick ass Chinese character may have made Danny more palatable. Oh well, I will find out myself this week.

Umm...why are you ignoring Jessica Henwick, a character who in the show kicks ass and is Asian American. Doesn't that make him more palatable? Your logic makes no sense Zarex.

 

[Big Bang]

Well, The Shredder himself, Brian Tee, has expressed interest.

I hope he goes for it. He'd be awesome.

 

[Zarex]

change for the sake of change just to placate the vocal (but small) crowd of people who are clamoring for this is not change for the good. Again, that is literally the dictionary definition of tokenism.

The small group clamoring for an Asian Danny is far larger than the size of the group that would have been horrified if they cast an Asian Danny. I think it would been a good move. And tokenism sucks, but complete absence is far, far worse

 

[TheVileOne]

The small group clamoring for an Asian Danny is far larger than the size of the group that would have been horrified if they cast an Asian Danny. I think it would been a good move. And tokenism sucks, but complete absence is far, far worse

Complete absence of what though? You said put Shang Chi in there to make Danny more palatable, but what about Colleen Wing, who is Asian American?

What about the complete absence of Jewish American characters in the MCU?

 

[Big Bang]

but complete absence is far, far worse

If Brian Lee gets the part of Namor, Iron Fist would be forgotten. Instantly.

 

[Darkraid]

Well, The Shredder himself, Brian Tee, has expressed interest.

Donnie Yen actually looks like Namor.

 

[rogue trooper]

I love the MCU and I hate it when they falter. I was disappointed Shang Chi was not in the series, and I think a kick ass Chinese character may have made Danny more palatable. Oh well, I will find out myself this week.

I feel positive he's someone who might be introduced in a possible season 2 of Iron Fist or Defenders, and then maybe get his own series like The Punisher.

 

[Zarex]

I'm curious why it's so much more important if it's fictional characters? I mean they are just fiction at the end of the day. Why is the race so important?

In this case Marvel missed an opportunity to add a star Asian character to a universe where that representation is sorely lacking. Race is important if you don't have a place at the table.