Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[DarthSkywalker]

To be fair, a lot of shows, episodic shows have trouble finding themselves early on. It's not uncommon for TV shows to have a rough footing early on in their runs. Sometimes it will take a long-running series 2-3 seasons to really hit its stride. I recall Person of Interest in its first couple episodes was a little rough and ill defined, but once it picked up, it was great.

But I think though it comes from a place of Scott Buck not being able to meld these disparate elements together in one TV series.

Also, let's face it. The Marvel Netflix group of shows famously went over so well for their dark, edgy gritty realism. The whole street level urban vigilante thing.

Iron Fist has elements that are far away from that. A hidden city, and also a magic dragon. I think the show is having trouble putting those things in but also trying to keep, real people, real situations in New York City thing.

I feel like there is an inherent difference between a 22 episodes a season series and 13 episode one. With a shorter order, there is no need for fluff. Daredevil was finding its footing early, but was also quite good at the same time. I am having trouble thinking of any shorter lengthened show where if it didn't grab me after 6 episodes, it eventually grabbed me.

 

[TheVileOne]

I mean Agent Carter had a great first season, but then went off a cliff pretty early in season 2. And that was only 10 episodes.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Lets see how the show is in its entirety before talking about not getting a second season, etc. Worst case, even if Iron Fist gets no 2nd season, I bet Danny will be in more Defenders stuff, and maybe they would work Danny into Luke Cage worst case.

But again, I think this discussion and doom/gloom is way too early. Again, that is 6 episodes you saw, not the whole show. The latter portion may justify the beginning yet.

How do you justify a poor start? I am confused by what you are arguing here. If it is poor, its just poor. Logan doesn't "justify" Origins.

Also, if Finn doesn't look right fighting, that isn't going to help in general as well.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm concerned because a lot of people are having similar reactions. Most of the other Marvel shows got a lot of positive reactions. So I'm concerned if it's not as well received they won't pursue it further.

I'm concerned here we won't ever get a proper Iron Fist and ever get to see him suit up. Scott Buck already confirmed he won't suit up this season.

I know he won't suit up this season, but that doesn't mean never either. Danny will be in more stuff, I am VERY sure he will even if it doesn't end up being a proper Iron Fist season 2 (again, I at least see him popping up.in Luke Cage at worst), and I also get you are a concerned fan. But in the words of Aaron Rodgers, relax lol. We have so much of Danny to see play out in Iron Fist and Defenders, it is way too early to fit him for a coffin

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mean Agent Carter had a great first season, but then went off a cliff pretty early in season 2. And that was only 10 episodes.

That is true. But good shows getting bad is the norm. Bad shows getting good, how often does that happen?

 

[TheVileOne]

I would justify it in the sense that the story does pick up later in the first half. And a lot of shows start slow and don't always grab you from the get go. It's true.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know he won't suit up this season, but that doesn't mean never either. Danny will be in more stuff, I am VERY sure he will even if it doesn't end up being a proper Iron Fist season 2 (again, I at least see him popping up.in Luke Cage at worst), and I also get you are a concerned fan. But in the words of Aaron Rodgers, relax lol. We have so much of Danny to see play out in Iron Fist and Defenders, it is way too early to fit him for a coffin

I've been saying since last year that Danny wouldn't be suiting up in this show. And now it turns out to be true. Everyone was so sure he WOULD by the end of the first season. Now we know it's not true.

No one believed me.

 

[TheVileOne]

That is true. But good shows getting bad is the norm. Bad shows getting good, how often does that happen?

Ask Seinfeld

 

[Spider-Fan]

How do you justify a poor start? I am confused by what you are arguing here. If it is poor, its just poor. Logan doesn't "justify" Origins.

Also, if Finn doesn't look right fighting, that isn't going to help in general as well.

Apples to oranges. 2 different films do not equal parts of a TV show within same season. This is more like watching a movie that starts slow and maybe gets good in the middle. Plenty of films are like that, so I don't think it is fair to call Iron Fist bad before seeing the 2nd half. It may suck altogether, this is true. But I just don't think that is a good call to make when there are 7 episodes no one saw yet. Granted, anyone would prefer a rock star start. But not starting fast doesn't always mean gloom

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I would justify it in the sense that the story does pick up later in the first half. And a lot of shows start slow and don't always grab you from the get go. It's true.

Like what though? Like even slow burn stuff like Fargo is written so well, it doesn't really matter.

It is actually interesting when you think about Daredevil and Jessica Jones. There was definitely a slow burn nature to their first seasons. But that didn't make them boring or lacking the proper identity you'd expect from them. No, they were still incredibly intriguing from the start.

Also if they cast poorly with Finn, that you just can't fix.

 

[TheVileOne]

How do you justify a poor start? I am confused by what you are arguing here. If it is poor, its just poor. Logan doesn't "justify" Origins.

Also, if Finn doesn't look right fighting, that isn't going to help in general as well.

I would also say, this is sort of a binge-era show. It's not a week to week episode. You watch these like all at once or in big chunks. That might serve this show better than if it were an episode network TV series.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ask Seinfeld

Can't. Only seen like 5 episodes.

Also one show does not make a very good argument.

 

[TheVileOne]

Like what though? Like even slow burn stuff like Fargo is written so well, it doesn't really matter.

It is actually interesting when you think about Daredevil and Jessica Jones. There was definitely a slow burn nature to their first seasons. But that didn't make them boring or lacking the proper identity you'd expect from them. No, they were still incredibly intriguing from the start.

Also if they cast poorly with Finn, that you just can't fix.

I think Jessica Jones had a lot of problems in the first season, and most of them came in the back half. Daredevil had some issues as well.

 

[TheVileOne]

Can't. Only seen like 5 episodes.

Also one show does not make a very good argument.

Seinfeld's a pretty good argument considering where it started and where it ultimately ended.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That is true. But good shows getting bad is the norm. Bad shows getting good, how often does that happen?

Now that is a fair point, but I have seen plenty of shows that got much better post 1st season. I would submit Buffy and Angel for that, though granted both 1st seasons are still good.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Apples to oranges. 2 different films do not equal parts of a TV show within same season. This is more like watching a movie that starts slow and maybe gets good in the middle. Plenty of films are like that, so I don't think it is fair to call Iron Fist bad before seeing the 2nd half. It may suck altogether, this is true. But I just don't think that is a good call to make when there are 7 episodes no one saw yet. Granted, anyone would prefer a rock star start. But not starting fast doesn't always mean gloom

See I do not subscribe to the idea that a slow start equals a bad start. You can world build, do plenty of setup, while sit being really good. That is all down to the quality of the writing, acting, directing and storytelling in general.

This also gets married to the words on the showrunner, which don't sound all that promising hearing the potential news that the first 6 episodes, not great in many people's opinion.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Seinfeld's a pretty good argument considering where it started and where it ultimately ended.

Its a poor argument because it is one show out of tens of thousands. If I were to go down my list of favorite shows, I think Buffy had easily the worst start. But there the problems were apparent and spoke of interference.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well Spider-Fan also mentioned Buffy and Angel. So there you go, three right there.

 

[Spider-Fan]

See I do not subscribe to the idea that a slow start equals a bad start. You can world build, do plenty of setup, while sit being really good. That is all down to the quality of the writing, acting, directing and storytelling in general.

This also gets married to the words on the showrunner, which don't sound all that promising hearing the potential news that the first 6 episodes, not great in many people's opinion.

I can see the concern, but I also think clearly Netflix seems to have wanted a more grounded show from the start, hence why this seemed to have so many issues getting a showrunner to do it. I expected the mystical elements to be toned down or not overly expanded on, so maybe I am less effected because I expected it. Either way, I have always been a wait and see type of guy. For the most part, the MCU has not let me down, so I will keep expecting to like it until the bitter end, lol

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think Jessica Jones had a lot of problems in the first season, and most of them came in the back half. Daredevil had some issues as well.

They definitely had issues. Jessica Jones was 3 episodes too long for what they did imo. But they didn't start poorly and had overall very good first seasons.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I loved Jessica Jones, and Daredevil is so far my fave superhero TV show ever. I thought Jessica Jones was well paced, actually. DD season 2 had more pacing issues, IMO. It was like 2 shows. That said, I feel Luke Cage had the worst issues so far in the Netflix sector. I loved the first half, and the 2nd half had so much I did not like. Like Diamondback
..everything Diamondback. But overall, I liked.Luke Cage even there. I am hoping Iron Fist is similar in reverse, slow 1st half, good 2nd half and overall the good outweighs the baf

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well Spider-Fan also mentioned Buffy and Angel. So there you go, three right there.

Neither Buffy or Angel started "poorly" imo. Angel was strong out of the gate. Buffy was presented in a generic way, that was subverted by the writing that just grew with the first season. Also with Buffy, it became clear that Joss wasn't the problem. The cast wasn't the problem. Joss was being hampered. Season 2, that wasn't the case and the show flew.

Any reason to think the showrunner wouldn't be a problem here, if there is a problem?

 

[TheVileOne]

Anyway Darth, I'm not really saying you are wrong. But watch the show and decide for yourself. I think it does genuinely get better later, and it's good enough that I'm definitely tuning in for the rest of the season. I just wish we could've gotten a showrunner who would've embraced the costume and some other elements and not been Scott Buck.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I loved Jessica Jones, and Daredevil is so far my fave superhero TV show ever. I thought Jessica Jones was well paced, actually. DD season 2 had more pacing issues, IMO. It was like 2 shows. That said, I feel Luke Cage had the worst issues so far in the Netflix sector. I loved the first half, and the 2nd half had so much I did not like. Like Diamondback
..everything Diamondback. But overall, I liked.Luke Cage even there. I am hoping Iron Fist is similar in reverse, slow 1st half, good 2nd half and overall the good outweighs the baf

Jessica Jones fell into the trap of having to avoid Jessica and Kilgrave confronting each other after they captured him the first time. They have to continually figure out ways for things to not end. So they would come up with these plot devices and threads to keep the obvious from happening. I still quite love it, but it is also clear imo that they stretched it.

Luke Cage is odd for me. I think the season half of the season might be better then the first, but Diamondback doesn't really work for me, so he is a glaring problem. Though again, another obvious plot device stretching out the season.

I want Iron Fist to work. He was the one I was looking forward to the most. But if they got Danny and the showrunner wrong, hard to fix that inside one season.

 

[Web-Head]

I think Iron Fist could have benefited from waiting and getting the summer release while the Defenders could've been in the Fall.

After hiring Scott Buck who was the show runner for the worst seasons of Dexter and the fact that it doesn't seem like he was able to fully embrace the character.