Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[Mike Murdock]

From what I've read the show doesn't really explain that Danny is the Living Weapon and only hint about it

Doesn't reveal it or doesn't reveal it in the first six episodes?

 

[Dark Raven]

Scott Buck has experience. But his experience as showrunner I believe was limited to the final season(s?) of Dexter. His other TV credits include things like Rome and Six Feet Under.

Therefore not relevant experience for a martial arts series.

Or to paraphrase Trump: He has experience, but it's all bad experience.

 

[roach]

What would have minimized controversy is telling a good story and having good effects or choreography. Remember how much controversy Doctor Strange had over The Ancient One? The movie blew minds and people forgave it. Had IF had a decent story or choreography the white male lead wouldn't even be a controversy. When we're being entertained we don't nitpick. The crazy thing is a show like this could have just relied on martial arts prowess. A Kung fu movie/show don't have to have a complex story...just good choreography. The Raid is a badass movie but story wise it's very basic. The fighting elevates the movie. Would anyone be talking about The Raid if it had crappy fighting in it?

What ticks me off about Iron Fist is it didn't need lots of money. All it needed was a good fight choreographer and a lead willing to learn Kung fu.

 

[Dasher10]

This is very interesting Dasher10. Have you heard or are you aware of things that haven't been put out there publicly regarding Iron Fist?

Now at the same time, from what I've seen and heard from Loeb in the past, he is pretty well involved and hands-on with these shows. I think where you might be mistaken is that Loeb didn't get hands on or involved, but everything I've seen in the past tells me he does a lot of work with the Netflix TV shows, from Daredevil onward. Look, even creators with good track records have misfires now and again. My guess is that Loeb and co. didn't see a problem with what Buck was doing and just let him do his thing. Maybe they were delusional about why Iron Fist isn't, wasn't working. Not sure. I'd be curious to know more on how all this went down and why they decided to take this almost no frills approach to Iron Fist.

So I guess my question is, do we know for certain Loeb wasn't involved or checking over things from the start and really waited until halfway in? I mean that could've been the plan from the beginning.



I would also say good points.

Nope. I can just piece things together. I know that Ted Serandos canceled Marco Polo for being too expensive to produce and didn't get enough viewers. I think he was scared of the budget needed for Iron Fist.

And I'd like to think that Loeb was ignoring the problems with Iron Fist because I don't want to think that he himself allowed this to happen and was fully okay with it. Yeah, his track record is hit and miss. He's written some of the best Batman, Supergirl, Superman and Cable stories of all time but his X-Force run ended on a weak note, his Hulk and Nova were received positively but still had a large number of detractors and his work on Wolverine and the Ultimate Line was abysmal as were the first 11 episodes of Agents of SHIELD. The guy's capable of some great work but he occasionally produces a dud and when he fails, he fails hard.

 

[roach]

Anyone who said "Iron Fist is his amazing martial arts property...let's focus on the office politics instead" needs to punched in the Rick Jones

 

[Dasher10]

And Jeph Loeb was a producer on LOST and the ending to that series was also pretty bad. His work on Smallville kept Clark out of a costume for the duration of the series.

Like, for as much as I love the movie Commando, the first three Netflix series, most of Agents of SHIELD and his Cable, Hulk and Batman comics, it's fair to realize that he's the same guy responsible for Ultimatum. I like most of his work but let's not pretend that there's a real possibility that he liked the first four episodes of Iron Fist.

 

[Dasher10]

What would have minimized controversy is telling a good story and having good effects or choreography. Remember how much controversy Doctor Strange had over The Ancient One? The movie blew minds and people forgave it. Had IF had a decent story or choreography the white male lead wouldn't even be a controversy. When we're being entertained we don't nitpick. The crazy thing is a show like this could have just relied on martial arts prowess. A Kung fu movie/show don't have to have a complex story...just good choreography. The Raid is a badass movie but story wise it's very basic. The fighting elevates the movie. Would anyone be talking about The Raid if it had crappy fighting in it?

What ticks me off about Iron Fist is it didn't need lots of money. All it needed was a good fight choreographer and a lead willing to learn Kung fu.

I thought you said the show gets better as it goes on?

 

[Dark Raven]

I would say that how Loeb allowed everything on IF and also allowed Buck to work on Inhumans isn't so much that he didn't know what was going on but rather that his judgment was clouded. It's easy, when you get into a certain mindset, to start doing everything a particular way. Maybe he though IF was good and thought they could have more of the same on Inhumans.

Hopefully this is all a wake up call for them.

 

[roach]

I thought you said the show gets better as it goes on?

One of my minions has said that. My interest in the series dropped considerably after that first trailer. My concerns from the trailer seemed to be confirmed in the reviews.

 

[Darepool]

I would say that how Loeb allowed everything on IF and also allowed Buck to work on Inhumans isn't so much that he didn't know what was going on but rather that his judgment was clouded. It's easy, when you get into a certain mindset, to start doing everything a particular way. Maybe he though IF was good and thought they could have more of the same on Inhumans.

Hopefully this is all a wake up call for them.

This is likely the case.

 

[metaphysician]

So, Iron Fist gets 0% on RT? But Supergirl started with 100%? For real? What world do we live in?

While the reviews don't make me optimistic, it is worth noting that RT is basically meaningless for TV shows. The number of reviews is *way* lower, and they tend to be either for just the season opener or, in this case, just the first six episodes. So, a 0% doesn't quite mean the same thing, especially if you figure TV shows only get reviews when the reviewers are really passionate about the new show. Usually this means disproportionately high scores, because only fans even bother to submit a review. Here, it *might* mean the reverse: most reviews are coming from people still pissed that he didn't get de-whited.

This is, I should note, a somewhat marginal hope. I don't really think this is really going to turn Iron Fist into a Daredevil-quality show. Its more. . . there is some room for it to be a disappointing but functional and enjoyable show. Maybe.

 

[Dasher10]

One of my minions has said that. My interest in the series dropped considerably after that first trailer. My concerns from the trailer seemed to be confirmed in the reviews.

Ah. Well I hope that it does pick up. But even if it does, it sounds like there are tonal problems which simply don't work for Iron Fist. Namely, it should be a full-on Wuxia series.

Iron Fist was inspired by the low budget Shaw Bros films that were popular back in the 70s. The genre evolved into films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Hero. It's martial arts but taken to ridiculous extremes with mystical powers and completely over the top combat. Iron Fist shouldn't be grounded. The MCU finally embraced the weird with Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Doctor Strange so any sort of argument about the tone not working should be moot. Iron Fist should have its own tone and stand out from the pack.

It shouldn't be hard to look for a warehouse to film in that has pipes along the ceiling to use for wirework. Spend less time in the office. Stop trying to be be Marvel's Batman and focus on why Iron Fist is different since people could just as easily watch Tim Burton or Christopher Nolan's Batman since the whole, "white guy learns martial arts in Asia and comes back to America to fight crime" character already exists and people have seen it before. Iron Fist needs to embrace what makes it unique. Like, there are ways of doing a wuxia series affordably. How big was the budget on Five Deadly Venoms or Master of the Flying Guillotine? There are ways of getting Iron Fist right and that means not being like Batman and certainly focusing less on Danny's day job.

 

[metaphysician]

Don't worry guys....Shang-Chi is going to be played by Michael B. Jordon.....all's good.

You kid, but you kind of touch upon something: far, far too often when people discuss media, "diverse" is synonymous with "black". If your lucky, it'll mean "black and hispanic".

I have, kid you not, encountered people who would make extensive arguments for why an all black cast is "diverse".

Anyway, this is tangential, so I will repeat the actual on-topic comment I've had for a while: Danny Rand is one of those characters for whom their whiteness is actually a character point. Firstly, because of how he is a man who doesn't belong in both Kun Lun ( where he's a white dude ), and in NYC ( where he's a guy from Shangri-La ). Secondly, because of how his personal friendship with Luke Cage works, vis a vis him being a privileged rich white guy.

Changing him to be Asian-American kind of wrecks both character points, and the logic behind doing so has a whole bunch of unrealized racist undertones ( notably: "Asian-American is the same thing as white, they don't get to count as a minority", which is really precious coming from people simultaneously arguing for how oppressed Asian-Americans are by Hollywood ). This is not like swapping Johnny Storm's race, where his character is almost 100% indifferent to ethnicity.

 

[Dasher10]

You kid, but you kind of touch upon something: far, far too often when people discuss media, "diverse" is synonymous with "black". If your lucky, it'll mean "black and hispanic".

I have, kid you not, encountered people who would make extensive arguments for why an all black cast is "diverse".

Anyway, this is tangential, so I will repeat the actual on-topic comment I've had for a while: Danny Rand is one of those characters for whom their whiteness is actually a character point. Firstly, because of how he is a man who doesn't belong in both Kun Lun ( where he's a white dude ), and in NYC ( where he's a guy from Shangri-La ). Secondly, because of how his personal friendship with Luke Cage works, vis a vis him being a privileged rich white guy.

Changing him to be Asian-American kind of wrecks both character points, and the logic behind doing so has a whole bunch of unrealized racist undertones ( notably: "Asian-American is the same thing as white, they don't get to count as a minority", which is really precious coming from people simultaneously arguing for how oppressed Asian-Americans are by Hollywood ). This is not like swapping Johnny Storm's race, where his character is almost 100% indifferent to ethnicity.

I agree 100%. If anything this just means that Marvel should do something with Shang Chi.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don't mind some corporate intrigue but it seems like they were afraid of embracing the character.

 

[RockSP]

What would have minimized controversy is telling a good story and having good effects or choreography. Remember how much controversy Doctor Strange had over The Ancient One? The movie blew minds and people forgave it. Had IF had a decent story or choreography the white male lead wouldn't even be a controversy. When we're being entertained we don't nitpick. The crazy thing is a show like this could have just relied on martial arts prowess. A Kung fu movie/show don't have to have a complex story...just good choreography. The Raid is a badass movie but story wise it's very basic. The fighting elevates the movie. Would anyone be talking about The Raid if it had crappy fighting in it?

What ticks me off about Iron Fist is it didn't need lots of money. All it needed was a good fight choreographer and a lead willing to learn Kung fu.

Someone earlier said he had 6 weeks of training. I doubt he was unwilling to learn (not actual king fu but showbiz-fu)...just didn't have the time.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Don't worry guys....Shang-Chi is going to be played by Michael B. Jordon.....all's good.

Damn.

 

[roach]

Ah. Well I hope that it does pick up. But even if it does, it sounds like there are tonal problems which simply don't work for Iron Fist. Namely, it should be a full-on Wuxia series.

Iron Fist was inspired by the low budget Shaw Bros films that were popular back in the 70s. The genre evolved into films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Hero. It's martial arts but taken to ridiculous extremes with mystical powers and completely over the top combat. Iron Fist shouldn't be grounded. The MCU finally embraced the weird with Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Doctor Strange so any sort of argument about the tone not working should be moot. Iron Fist should have its own tone and stand out from the pack.

It shouldn't be hard to look for a warehouse to film in that has pipes along the ceiling to use for wirework. Spend less time in the office. Stop trying to be be Marvel's Batman and focus on why Iron Fist is different since people could just as easily watch Tim Burton or Christopher Nolan's Batman since the whole, "white guy learns martial arts in Asia and comes back to America to fight crime" character already exists and people have seen it before. Iron Fist needs to embrace what makes it unique. Like, there are ways of doing a wuxia series affordably. How big was the budget on Five Deadly Venoms or Master of the Flying Guillotine? There are ways of getting Iron Fist right and that means not being like Batman and certainly focusing less on Danny's day job.

I saw Iron Fist as a serious Big Trouble in Little China

 

[roach]

Someone earlier said he had 6 weeks of training. I doubt he was unwilling to learn (not actual king fu but showbiz-fu)...just didn't have the time.

My bad

 

[Infinity9999x]

There is no "White Savior" trope.

....Yeah, there is. I think some of the criticisms (race wise) on the show are a over exaggerated as well. But the trope is definitely a thing.

 

[Big Bang]

If they had an Indian Iron Fist, then he would neither be a white saviour nor racially stereotyping all Asians as martial artists. They missed their opportunity.

M Night Shyamalan should have directed a couple of episodes.

 

[McSir]

I think the worst part about this is that (barring a mid-season shift where the show becomes good--keep in mind these shows are notorious for mid-season shifts) the pretty disastrous response effectively kills the hype anyone had for Defenders. People are fickle.

It stings to have four seasons/three series that have better acclaim than most things on television and then for this to (allegedly) suck so hard.

 

[Big Bang]

Someone earlier said he had 6 weeks of training. I doubt he was unwilling to learn (not actual king fu but showbiz-fu)...just didn't have the time.

Finn Jones was severely excoriated for cultural appropriation by several people on Twitter as a result, before he closed his account.

 

[Dasher10]

I saw Iron Fist as a serious Big Trouble in Little China

And that should have been an influence since it's not a melodrama. And Big Trouble in Little China was also a low budget film that placed wuxia elements in present day America. Like after watching a frozen mummy, a talking raccoon, undead ninjas and virtually everything about Doctor Strange, Marvel decide that they're now finally embarrassed by the source material.

 

[TheVileOne]

....Yeah, there is. I think some of the criticisms (race wise) on the show are a over exaggerated as well. But the trope is definitely a thing.

Like Batman and Arrow?

If you are going to label Iron Fist as a white savior, then pretty much every superhero who is white and is good at fighting and martial arts is a white savior, but especially Batman and Arrow.